Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[woodearth]

Who is that green hair onee-san? Hopefully we will see more of her, preferably as the pilot replacement.

[magnuskn]

I second that motion.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by woodearth

Who is that green hair onee-san? Hopefully we will see more of her, preferably as the pilot replacement.

We'll see more of her before she dies next episode.

But yeah, it would be cool if we had a confident female pilot. It could be good for Mirage too, if she gets some kind of big sister figure.

[dmaxzero]

The best part of any Macross show for me is seeing a Macross class warship flying and transforming. That was EPIC!

And oh yeah, Hayate... If Hayate was to be denser he will be in the periodic table.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think Winderemere wouldn't have needed to fight for their independence, or even feel they weren't independent, if NUNS was working as it should (decentralized). I think NUNS overstepped their bounds somehow (or a third party messed things up), resulting in a political crisis (Winderemere feeling their sovereignty was jeopardised) that led to the war 7 years ago.

I do find it interesting that, whilst we've seen ruins on Al-Shahal, Vordor and Ragna, we haven't actually seen the Windermere ones yet. Which suggests that the big hole in the ground where the dimension eater was used may have been where Windermere's ruins were.

Until this episode, I've sort of been trying to figure out how the Var Syndrome works, based on what we know of fold bacteria and fold commication from Frontier. But that backstory about Windermere's war of independence is getting more and more fascinating. Was it really Windermere that set the dimension eater off, as the official story in NUN and their affiliates goes? Or did someone else do it, which would explain the huge antagonism that Keith et al feel? I'm certainly looking forward to finding out what the truth is, though I'm not entirely sure how Kawamori and co. are going to present it to us. ^^

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

And oh yeah, Hayate... If Hayate was to be denser he will be in the periodic table.

What makes you think he doesn't get it? The fact he isn't confessing right there on the spot?

If anything, what Hayate said to Freyja was more hinting than what she said to him. And Hayate even winked at her!

Maybe Hayate would prefer it if she confessed to him. Or maybe he thinks that now is not a good time to try to push forward with a romance, given everything Freyja and Mirage are dealing with right now.

There's all sorts of reasons for why Hayate might simply prefer to maintain the relationship status quo for now.


And while Freyja and Mirage have now made some decent hints to Hayate, they're both a far cry from the sort of obviously desperate haremettes you get in shows like Infinite Stratos.

[karice67]

Ah, one other thing, about the NUN stuff that was posted:

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

To put in simple term every colony is a member of the NUN but is self governing and can make their own decisions independent of the NUN but can also ask for aid if the need arises. Kind of like the federation in star trek.

Here is a brief history on the evolution of the NUN in the Macross univers. Source is macross2.net aka Macrosspedia

*snip*

The New United Nations Government in Macross Frontier: In 2007 the sequel Macross Frontier was produced and began utilizing the "New United Nations Government" title for an administration that ruled human civilization not from Earth, but from aboard the mobile colony fleet Macross Frontier. However, in this sequel, the private military contractor Strategic Military Services (SMS) has come to play a very prominent role in the defense and military policy of this new government. Creator Shoji Kawamori has stated (interview from Otona Anime magazine #9) the New U.N. is a newly organized and decentralized government of the human colony fleets and colony worlds. Kawamori states that Earth is no longer able to directly control the hundreds of colony world and fleets given the vast interstellar distances involved. This change in government was not a coup or revolution, but a realigning of the galaxy at large. Thus U.N. colonies and fleets became self-governing but belong to the New United Nations as members.

Note that the word "colony" implies that the fleets and worlds they are talking about are the emigrants from Earth. At the end of the Vajra war depicted in Frontier, the Vajra left their planet, so we haven't seen what happens when a colony fleet encounters an indigenous humanoid race. What we've seen with Ragna (where the government is a separate entity that makes requests to Chaos) suggests that they aren't necessarily absorbed into the administrations of the colony fleets or the colonies that they set up on the world's that they arrive at. It seems like we should be assuming that they are a separate government entity that technically have the right make their own decisions as to how best to ensure their own survival.


I've got the Otona Anime #9 magazine, so I'll try to read the interview myself when I can find time...

[dmaxzero]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What makes you think he doesn't get it? The fact he isn't confessing right there on the spot?

If anything, what Hayate said to Freyja was more hinting than what she said to him. And Hayate even winked at her!

Maybe Hayate would prefer it if she confessed to him. Or maybe he thinks that now is not a good time to try to push forward with a romance, given everything Freyja and Mirage are dealing with right now.

There's all sorts of reasons for why Hayate might simply prefer to maintain the relationship status quo for now.


And while Freyja and Mirage have now made some decent hints to Hayate, they're both a far cry from the sort of obviously desperate haremettes you get in shows like Infinite Stratos.

Probably because the show has done a really good work depicting them as good buddies I am having a hard time seeing them as anything but that.

And please have some mercy by not comparing these characters with the turds of IS.

[Thess]

I'm not really convinced anyone is in love yet. Yes, Freyja might feel an attraction to Hayate but she's the one who screams YOLO and does things, if she was sure of her feelings, she would confess. Mirage's feelings don't appear very romantic. She has an inferiority complex. As for Hayate, while he sometimes has a flirtatious attitude to Freyja, I don't see it as romantic, as it's not his concern because of Mirage's silent brooding.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by woodearth

Who is that green hair onee-san? Hopefully we will see more of her, preferably as the pilot replacement.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I second that motion.

DAMMIT, but I already have Mirage!

- Tak

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by karice67

Ah, one other thing, about the NUN stuff that was posted:



Note that the word "colony" implies that the fleets and worlds they are talking about are the emigrants from Earth. At the end of the Vajra war depicted in Frontier, the Vajra left their planet, so we haven't seen what happens when a colony fleet encounters an indigenous humanoid race. What we've seen with Ragna (where the government is a separate entity that makes requests to Chaos) suggests that they aren't necessarily absorbed into the administrations of the colony fleets or the colonies that they set up on the world's that they arrive at. It seems like we should be assuming that they are a separate government entity that technically have the right make their own decisions as to how best to ensure their own survival.


I've got the Otona Anime #9 magazine, so I'll try to read the interview myself when I can find time...

Zola is an autonomous government with its own planetary militia. They limited overtechnology use and prefer their retro technology.

From the sound of this episode Windermerean nobility has sticks up their asses as to their race's place in the universe. Gramia as a student insist on one on one duels as knights of old. Ernest teaching him the universe does not work that way. Roid wants the NUN to see Windermere as an equal AKA a super power and declare them heirs of the Protoculture. Windermere though a sovereign world during its time in the NUN wanted a bigger vote in NUN policies it seems. But they are just one world out of many. Plus this nonsense making Heinz king of the Protoculture.

Basically the Kingdom of Wind does not want to face reality. So they try to reshape the universe.

Terrans have a greater understanding of the Protoculture as they have studied their history and artifacts. They know the Protoculture's escalating war doomed them. That they left a number of messes on their wake. That do not want war for their descendants and for them to live in peace. Oh yes they are fanboys of the Vajra.

To further compound their misunderstanding of the Protoculture they are not all dead. 10,000 years before they visited Earth again. A Protoculture girl woke from her cold sleep on the colonized world of Ouroboros.

Hints are pointing that Mikumo is a Protoculture and she is with the Terrans and everybody else.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Terrans have a greater understanding of the Protoculture as they have studied their history and artifacts.

Is that why that enlightened Earthling wants to blow up the Ragna ruins without giving a damn about it? Same enlightened Earthlings that unleashed the protodeviln for messing up where they really shouldn't? Those enlightened Earthlings? They studied the artifacts and yet they haven't found a ship like Roid's in all their searches.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Hints are pointing that Mikumo is a Protoculture and she is with the Terrans and everybody else.

Mikumo isn't with the Earthlings. She's with Walkure and currently stationed in Ragna, very far from Earth. Never even expressed any interest on Earth at all, furthermore. And she's most interested in two people: Heinz and Freyja. Both Windermerians. She doesn't look like she cares about the Earthlings or the central Government, seeing she's with Chaos and doing whatever the hell she wants. This doesn't mean the Windermerians are heirs or whatever, however thinking Mikumo gives a damn about the NUN is absolutely hilarious. The only thing she remotely cares about outside of her close group seem to be snooping the local ruins and singing.

We obviously disagree on the interpretation about Roid's claims and their intentions, so not going to bother to argue about it.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm not really convinced anyone is in love yet. Yes, Freyja might feel an attraction to Hayate but she's the one who screams YOLO and does things, if she was sure of her feelings, she would confess. Mirage's feelings don't appear very romantic. She has an inferiority complex. As for Hayate, while he sometimes has a flirtatious attitude to Freyja, I don't see it as romantic, as it's not his concern because of Mirage's silent brooding.

When you think about how the relationship started between Mirage and Hayate. The point is that Hayate hit the bullseye with Mirage when he said to her that he is going to support her in her new role as Delta leader (after Arad).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

When you think about how the relationship started between Mirage and Hayate. The point is that Hayate hit the bullseye with Mirage when he said to her that he is going to support her in her new role as Delta leader (after Arad).

So? I don't really feel it's romantic though. They feel like team mates, because Hayate would have said the same to Chuck if he was in Mirage's shoes. He even puts all of them in the same bag (Mirage, Chuck and Arad). It's the anti romantic declaration so far.

Mirage has a crippling inferiority complex around him. Her discomfort and awkwardness seems to be more related to the fact she cannot look at those two in the eye because they are accomplished and happy with their jobs while she feels like she's untalented and unhappy with her duty, IMO. That's what is eating her inside rather than romantic feelings. She took him as her rival to challenge herself and this is a good step for her development which she sorely needed. But I'm not really sure how to make a believable romantic angle. They don't have a vitriolic dynamic or a flirtatious one that could lead to sexual tension. It's all serious comradeship which is very friendzone-y, so far.

I do think Mirage and Hayate will end up together if they actually develop a romance, but I'm drawing a blank of how.

In comparison what he told Freyja (with a far more flirtatious body language like that wink and his gestures -- could be friendly teasing, but just a note of how different the portrayal was) is less "regular team mate" and more individualized to Freyja as a person. It's not "all you Walkure songs give me wings" but that Freyja gave him wings which seems a huge intimacy flag when these Macross protagonists have their hearts in this. I don't think they'll become a couple (nor I want to because their friendship is so unique that I'll hate to see it ruined by romance), but there are steps taken in the direction of "romantic sparks" that Mirage lacks. Next episode could change this, it's a vague triangle.

Either way, the girls and Hayate are too busy to have introspection about their feelings: Hayate has to become an ace, Mirage has to become a squad leader and Freyja has to try to reach Heinz. They don't have time to think about their love life, IMO. The triangle is very understated unlike Frontier (not better or worse, just different).

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Tenzen12: Right, no difference but those many thousand dead civilians and military.

They are same on that account too though.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

So? I don't really feel it's romantic though. They feel like team mates, because Hayate would have said the same to Chuck if he was in Mirage's shoes. He even puts all of them in the same bag (Mirage, Chuck and Arad). It's the anti romantic declaration so far.

Mirage has a crippling inferiority complex around him. Her discomfort and awkwardness seems to be more related to the fact she cannot look at those two in the eye because they are accomplished and happy with their jobs while she feels like she's untalented and unhappy with her duty, IMO. That's what is eating her inside rather than romantic feelings. She took him as her rival to challenge herself and this is a good step for her development which she sorely needed. But I'm not really sure how to make a believable romantic angle. They don't have a vitriolic dynamic or a flirtatious one that could lead to sexual tension. It's all serious comradeship which is very friendzone-y, so far.

I do think Mirage and Hayate will end up together if they actually develop a romance, but I'm drawing a blank of how.

In comparison what he told Freyja (with a far more flirtatious body language like that wink and his gestures -- could be friendly teasing, but just a note of how different the portrayal was) is less "regular team mate" and more individualized to Freyja as a person. It's not "all you Walkure songs give me wings" but that Freyja gave him wings which seems a huge intimacy flag when these Macross protagonists have their hearts in this. I don't think they'll become a couple (nor I want to because their friendship is so unique that I'll hate to see it ruined by romance), but there are steps taken in the direction of "romantic sparks" that Mirage lacks. Next episode could change this, it's a vague triangle.

At which point did I tell that there is a romantic tendency towards Hayate from Mirage? I did not tell that. What I try to say is that he is getting more and more interesting for her because he supports her in her doings and has always been near here when fighting the Aerial Knights. This interest can lead to a romance but at the moment he just caught more her attention.

Second. Mirage is not untalented. She just misses the keen part of of making improvisations and she does not fly - compared to Hayate and Messer - with compassion and heart.

Going forward the story. All three will be very busy but this is where Hayate may get closer to Mirage. It's unavoidable since they are both pilots of the same squad.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Second. Mirage is not untalented. She just misses the keen part of of making improvisations and she does not fly - compared to Hayate and Messer - with compassion and heart.

She states immediately she has none of Hayate's talent (almost echoing Kawamori in this point). Whatever she'll achieve it'll be hard work rather than her skill. Hayate already flies better than she does and he's a total rookie.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Going forward the story. All three will be very busy but this is where Hayate may get closer to Mirage. It's unavoidable since they are both pilots of the same squad.

Maybe they will, or maybe not. I'm not sure how romance would even help Mirage to grow up, if anything that would make her even more dependent on Hayate (which would suck and hurt her characterization which is finally starting to take shape). Don't forget that the Delta Squad fights and flies for one purpose: protect Walkure and stick near them all the time. And they have to strategize together to plan ahead. Hayate's Freyja's bodyguard for all intents and purposes. It's not like she's some big star and doesn't have time for him or they have different lifetyles: they are both fighting on the same field with different roles but they need to communicate to know how to proceed.

Looking back past romances in Macross, there was a reason they happened, but I don't feel there's need for romance to happen this time.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Thess

Looking back past romances in Macross, there was a reason they happened, but I don't feel there's need for romance to happen this time.

You do realize you're just fooling yourself here, right?

[Tenzen12]

Putting aside Macross plus it's not like romance was ever necessary for main plot. There is war the "big plot" and romance the "small plot". They exist alongside but it's not like much event of former would change without any romantic relationship.

And there is reason in Delta for such thing. There group of young adults of both genders working together under extreme circumstances who need trust each other. Of course things like that will unavoidably happen.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

Is that why that enlightened Earthling wants to blow up the Ragna ruins without giving a damn about it? Same enlightened Earthlings that unleashed the protodeviln for messing up where they really shouldn't? Those enlightened Earthlings? They studied the artifacts and yet they haven't found a ship like Roid's in all their searches.

What NUNS intend is to deny Gramia the opportunity to control 8 billion people.

Of course you want to ignore that because you are morally bankrupt in being a fan of Windermere.

Oh you are using Earthling showing you hate Terrans or Earthers. When you happen to be one.

Mikumo isn't with the Earthlings. She's with Walkure and currently stationed in Ragna, very far from Earth. Never even expressed any interest on Earth at all, furthermore. And she's most interested in two people: Heinz and Freyja. Both Windermerians. She doesn't look like she cares about the Earthlings or the central Government, seeing she's with Chaos and doing whatever the hell she wants. This doesn't mean the Windermerians are heirs or whatever, however thinking Mikumo gives a damn about the NUN is absolutely hilarious. The only thing she remotely cares about outside of her close group seem to be snooping the local ruins and singing.

She is with the Sub-Protoculture races. Why do you think she sings? To save them not enslave them like you want Windermereans to do with all the races.

We obviously disagree on the interpretation about Roid's claims and their intentions, so not going to bother to argue about it.

That is because you can't defend Windermerean beliefs without sounding ridiculous. Really have you read what you are writing lately?