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Palmito · 2018-07-09, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Saying Cao Cao is like Yamcha is also harsh. Harsher than calling Sairaorg Yamcha.

I would compare him to Fuhrer Bradley from FMA. Although he has the most powerful Longinus, he is still human and isn't as naturally strong, fast, or as durable as supernatural species. Yet he owns everyone. Like how Bradley only has two swords and despite being a Homunculus(or partial Homunculus) has no regeneration ability and only two swords. Yet he dominates in a world full of alchemy, guns, and tanks. With only his swordsmanship. He even had a tank running from him.

Cao Cao is basically that except with a legendary weapon that can basically one-shot anybody.

Yes, but Cao Cao is not a normal human either. Someone who can react to the blows of Sairaorg (specifically with BDTB) can not be an ordinary human. In Volume 9 Cao Cao (in the air) uses True Longinus to block a punch from Issei (Triaina Rook). The Impact throws him to the ground and the fall creates a large crater. After that he leaves the crater as if nothing had happened.

I still think Cao Cao may be secretly a half-god. You remember that in the Spoilers of Volume 25 when Issei goes to drink the special drink that only gods can drink given to him by Indra, Cao Cao drinks a little and says it is bitter (or sour). Neither Cao Cao nor Issei are gods, Issei felt immense pain after drinking, but Cao Cao felt nothing. Is not that strange? If he is not a half god then he was trained in some really special way by Indra when he was younger.

Lucidrago · 2018-07-09, 16:15

So then Strada would be half-god.

Cao Cao blocked Issei's punch with his True Longinus. He's not a normal human but he's human regardless.

It was stated in that spoiler that the Amrita was weakened but still poisonous to devils. It may have had no effect on humans.

Humans can have fast reaction speeds and the ability to dodge attacks. Like I said, he was most likely than not trained by Sakra. In both physical ability and spearsmanship. And how to fight.

Palmito · 2018-07-09, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

So then Strada would be half-god.

Cao Cao blocked Issei's punch with his True Longinus. He's not a normal human but he's human regardless.

It was stated in that spoiler that the Aurora was weakened but still poisonous to devils. It may have had no effect on humans.

Humans can have fast reaction speeds and the ability to dodge attacks. Like I said, he was most likely than not trained by Sakra. In both physical ability and spearsmanship. And how to fight.

Yes, humans can have fast reaction speeds and the ability to dodge attacks, but humans have their limits. With Strada you can kind of force and accept that he can move and punch so hard because his faith created a miracle and gave superhuman powers to him. It is also acceptable for humans to be a bit faster to the point of keeping up with the speed of supernatural beings, but Cao Cao goes far beyond that. Do you realize that he was able to easily avoid Issei's blows in Volume 12 because of his BXB's ability to teleport? In this fight he is dodging with his own body of blows even faster and stronger than Issei in volume 12. It is hard to believe that he could do this when the author constantly says that humans have fragile bodies and that they need to fight looking for openings and weaknesses.

If his body is so fragile, how can he fall from a height large enough to create a crater on the ground and then stand up as if nothing had happened? (vol 9). If he has a fragile body how can he move so fast? What kind of form did Indra train Cao Cao that he managed to make him be insanely fast, but did not fortify his body at the same time? (He is not insanely muscular like Strada, he has a normal musculature).

If the author simply says he's special, and that's it, then there's nothing we can do. But as a reader it is difficult to take seriously when the levels of power of the characters varies according to the need of the author. Like Saji being able to tank dozens of punches from Issei (CQC) in the face, when it should be basically game over for him to take 5 to 10.

Lucidrago · 2018-07-09, 18:18

Well I had the same question about Cao Cao, Tobio, and Strada moving so fast they disappear. Or other unrealistic things that even top performing human athletes who trained intensely for years couldn't do.

Unless Strada is using his Holy Fist, the other things he does are just his pure physical ability. Same with Cao Cao and Tobio.

You just have to accept it.

I can see Saji tanking punches. You do know about the wonders of armor right? And he did take so many punches from Issei in Volume 5. And he was unarmored and Issei was in his Balance Breaker state. The unrealistic thing was making Saji a straight-up power-type for that match.

fan · 2018-07-09, 18:39

@Lucidrago you don't have to be a power type to fight in a fist fight. In vivid strike vivio isn't a power type she can't even take heavy hits like saji. She got up and beat rinne. Who was the favorite to win and a power type

syzorst · 2018-07-09, 18:56

Magdaran [Sairaorg's little brother] touching speech

Spoiler:

syzorst · 2018-07-09, 19:16

Sairaorg vs Cao Cao finale

Spoiler:

Palmito · 2018-07-09, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Well I had the same question about Cao Cao, Tobio, and Strada moving so fast they disappear. Or other unrealistic things that even top performing human athletes who trained intensely for years couldn't do.

Unless Strada is using his Holy Fist, the other things he does are just his pure physical ability. Same with Cao Cao and Tobio.

You just have to accept it.

I can see Saji tanking punches. You do know about the wonders of armor right? And he did take so many punches from Issei in Volume 5. And he was unarmored and Issei was in his Balance Breaker state. The unrealistic thing was making Saji a straight-up power-type for that much.

Dude, just because you have armor, does not mean that you can handle an attack stronger than your defense. It's like Cao Cao destroying Sairaorg's armor and dealing damage to the body. Saji being able to tank dozens of Issei's punches (CQC) with THE FACE, makes no sense no matter how you look at this fight. Sairaorg, who not only has a much stronger base than Saji, but a more powerful armor too, was not able to tank Issei's blows (CQC) for a long time, and he did not just use his FACE like Saji and CQC was weaker in that time.

Lucidrago · 2018-07-09, 19:31

@syzorst Still can't wait to read that fight. Thank you for this.

Palmito · 2018-07-09, 19:34

"Cao Cao also lost the physical strength enough to keep prohibited hands and reverted by the normal state". What is this "prohibited hands"?

Lucidrago · 2018-07-09, 19:38

Ishibumi just writes it off as willpower. But yeah tanking a thousand punches from Issei and suddenly becoming Sairaorg was really just bad writing on Ishibumi's part.

fan · 2018-07-09, 19:51

@Lucidrago saji was not fighting like sairaog at all. And do not ignore this. I know martial arts. I don't get it what makes this fight different from issei vs yura and issei vs dulio and Koneko vs Kuroka. The CxC only took 4 of issei's pawn pieces. The same number of pieces saji has and what is wrong with using willpower. Not using it makes you weak and it means you telling the person to give up and the can't do anything about it. That goes against what Naruto's ninja way is. He never give up no matter how strong his enemy is. Someone tell me what makes issei vs saji any different from any fight i have seen. Really i want to know. Make me understand. Because i don't. And don't say this is issei vs sairaog because i still won't get. So please tell me so i can understand

Palmito · 2018-07-09, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fan

@Lucidrago saji was not fighting like sairaog at all. And do not ignore this. I know martial arts. I don't get it what makes this fight different from issei vs yura and issei vs dulio and Koneko vs Kuroka. The CxC only took 4 of issei's pawn pieces. The same number of pieces saji has and what is wrong with using willpower. Not using it makes you weak and it means you telling the person to give up and the can't do anything about it. That goes against what Naruto's ninja way is. He never give up no matter how strong his enemy is. Someone tell me what makes issei vs saji any different from any fight i have seen. Really i want to know. Make me understand. Because i don't. And don't say this is issei vs sairaog because i still won't get. So please tell me so i can understand

I'll try to explain to you just one last time. Have you watched DC Comics Super Hero movies like: The Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman: The Dawn of Justice? Think of Issei as Superman, Saji as Batman, and Sairaorg as General Zod. Superman has far more raw power than Batman. If Batman tries to go to a direct fight with Superman in the same way as General Zod he is fucked. So he uses equipment to fight with Superman (Cryptonite, Weapons, etc). The point is that if Batman out of nowhere had not used his equipment and gone to a direct fight would not make any sense, you understand?

Now let's go back to DxD.

When Ishibumi made Saji not use his abilities (which would be the only way he got any chance against Issei) and go for a fight with his fists, he was trying to do the same thing he did in Volume 10 with Sairaorg . It's the same as Kiba saying, "I could use my techniques, swords, and speed to fight Issei, but you know what, I'm going to fight with my fists." Does not make sense you understand? It's just bad writing. For some reason he wanted to create the same feeling as Volume 10. He made Saji fight the same way as Sairaorg. When Saji was losing, he made a relative of Saji cheer him up in the same way that he made Sairaorg's mother cheer Sairaorg when he was losing.

Do you understand now why we are saying that Ishibumi made an Issei x Sairaorg n° 2?

fan · 2018-07-09, 21:26

@Palmito ok i understand now. But this isn't issei vs sairaog 2.0. Issei punched kicked and blasted sairaog it wasn't just a fist fight. And both issei and saji respect sairaog. Saji called sairaog master. Saji doesn't want to be like sairaog. He wants to fight like issei that is who he compares himself to. It was said armor types are power types like dragons are a mass of energy or power. Vali also has a armor. You can say that forms like that are of the shape that is the closest to the ultimate for those who mainly fight using direct attacks. You wear a mass-of-power-like armour, and hit your opponent with it. That’s why it ends up in a form like that.]

Ddraig tells me. I see. If you mainly fight in fist-fights, you get a good balance in terms of offence and defence by wearing the armour that is like a mass of power. That must be it, since I, who is also using it, also think that its true. This explains that if you fight in a fist fight you get armor. Since issei and sairaog are both power types so is saji. Saji is a technique and power type now he wasn't before he got his armor he wanted power to protect and got it. Saji also fought a longinus user walburga. She couldn't burn him anymore and he fought and survived grendal with broken bones. So i understand now but saji wanted to be a power type being a technique type got him nowhere

Palmito · 2018-07-09, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by fan

@Palmito ok i understand now. But this isn't issei vs sairaog 2.0. Issei punched kicked and blasted sairaog it wasn't just a fist fight. And both issei and saji respect sairaog. Saji called sairaog master. Saji doesn't want to be like sairaog. He wants to fight like issei that is who he compares himself to. It was said armor types are power types like dragons are a mass of energy or power. Vali also has a armor. You can say that forms like that are of the shape that is the closest to the ultimate for those who mainly fight using direct attacks. You wear a mass-of-power-like armour, and hit your opponent with it. That’s why it ends up in a form like that.]

Ddraig tells me. I see. If you mainly fight in fist-fights, you get a good balance in terms of offence and defence by wearing the armour that is like a mass of power. That must be it, since I, who is also using it, also think that its true. This explains that if you fight in a fist fight you get armor. Since issei and sairaog are both power types so is saji. Saji is a technique and power type now he wasn't before he got his armor he wanted power to protect and got it. Saji also fought a longinus user walburga. She couldn't burn him anymore and he fought and survived grendal with broken bones. So i understand now but saji wanted to be a power type being a technique type got him nowhere

Like I said before, I'll leave you alone.

fan · 2018-07-09, 22:13

@ Palmito but i understand what you are saying. How come you can't understand saji. He became a pawn the same time as issei. He thought they were the same. He thought he was above issei. He envied issei. He wanted everything issei has. Power , his master to be with him and a goal. Tell have you ever seen saji use all of his powers. Saji knew about issei going into his dragon form the juggernaut. He did the same thing in volume 7 out of control dragon form. But if you want to blame on the author find the author is the bad guy now he made a mistake he ruined saji

Lucidrago · 2018-07-09, 22:34

When Sairaorg enters BotB:

Cao Cao: "F*ckf*ckf*ckf*ckf*ck! Don't think about anything else! Just keep dodging!"

Sairaorg: "F*ckf*ckf*ckf*ckf*ck! Don't think about the pain! Just keep hitting!"

While Saji is a hand-to-hand fighter taking Issei head on in a fist fight is quite unrealistic. Yes he has good offense and defense but just discarding all those abilities he has and just having Saji go for a straight-up fistfight against Issei was quite ridiculous.

Having Saji combine his hand-to-hand with Vritra's abilities would have been more sufficient than making Saji a pure power-type.

Since Saji is a technique-type, I would have expected Saji to actually give him quite a hard fight considering that he was exhausted and was at a natural disadvantage against Saji. Saji would go at him with hand-to-hand while using his abilities.

fan · 2018-07-09, 22:48

@Lucidrago saji fought another technique type it said he had bad compatibility with the guy he fought in volume 21. What i am saying yes saji is a technique type but has he like being one. I have only seen him use only two abilities. He might strong scary even if he uses all of his abilities he wouldn't need his armor

Lex79 · 2018-07-10, 01:17

I feel for Sairaorg. His only speciality is close quarter combat and he isn't even allowed to defeat a human technique type in melee. Yeah, I'm partial because I like Sairaorg as a character far more than Cao Cao.

Lucidrago · 2018-07-10, 01:31

They're both great characters. They do serve as the perfect contrast to each other. Cao Cao is considered a genius who was born with the most powerful Longinus and was most likely trained by Sakra. Despite simply being a human was gifted with so much.

While Sairaorg was the first son of Lord Bael and was the heir of the highest-ranked house of the 72 Pillars. Yet despite that, he was born with low demonic powers and didn't even inherit his house's trait which is the Power of Destruction. So he was discarded by his own house as someone without worth. And he had to train to the limits to even gain power to take back the position of heir that was rightfully is.

Cao Cao got to the top with his powerful weapon and overflowing talents(not saying he doesn't train). Despite being born a simple human.

While Sairaorg was born with nothing and had to work hard for everything he had gotten. Despite being born a devil of the House of Bael. And being born a high-class devil who are more often than not blessed with power.

2018-07-09, 16:15	Link #1402
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	So then Strada would be half-god. Cao Cao blocked Issei's punch with his True Longinus. He's not a normal human but he's human regardless. It was stated in that spoiler that the Amrita was weakened but still poisonous to devils. It may have had no effect on humans. Humans can have fast reaction speeds and the ability to dodge attacks. Like I said, he was most likely than not trained by Sakra. In both physical ability and spearsmanship. And how to fight. Last edited by Lucidrago; 2018-07-09 at 18:10.

2018-07-09, 18:18	Link #1404
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	Well I had the same question about Cao Cao, Tobio, and Strada moving so fast they disappear. Or other unrealistic things that even top performing human athletes who trained intensely for years couldn't do. Unless Strada is using his Holy Fist, the other things he does are just his pure physical ability. Same with Cao Cao and Tobio. You just have to accept it. I can see Saji tanking punches. You do know about the wonders of armor right? And he did take so many punches from Issei in Volume 5. And he was unarmored and Issei was in his Balance Breaker state. The unrealistic thing was making Saji a straight-up power-type for that match. Last edited by Lucidrago; 2018-07-09 at 19:20.

2018-07-09, 18:56	Link #1406
syzorst syzorst Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: St. Louis	Magdaran [Sairaorg's little brother] touching speech Spoiler: Sairaorg's brother Magdaran comes to the commentary and speaks on the microphone. "My brother is ... ... fighting only with his body skill. For the Baal family, he does not have the power of destruction. ...... My older brother is inferior in political power, even compared to his successors. The problem that happened in the territory is not handled well by the top brass, so brother decided to take the trouble to go to the site and take leadership which was not easy. The audience was listening to Magdaran's voice speaking to his brother. "We will take the lead in actions that you can not think of as a noble family, such as going to selling special products of the territory to another territory by themselves wearing costumes themselves next year. Besides, if it is a request of the citizens, if it is a child's request, I will listen to it seriously and achieve it. " Madgaran sheds tears and appeals while watching the fighting brother appearing on the monitor. "Still I am willing to follow my older brother without any doubts. \| Sairaorg Bael is the next owner of the great king family and is the next great King Bael!"

2018-07-09, 19:16	Link #1407
syzorst syzorst Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: St. Louis	Sairaorg vs Cao Cao finale Spoiler: the fierce fight of Sairaorg and Cao Cao has resumed, and the no-guard tactics of fists and spears will be unfolded again! While striking a fist and avoiding a spear, Sairaorg says. "... ... It's a funny guy, but I do not dislike it!" Piercing with the spear and Cao Cao returns it and avoids a kick "You are right here, there is a knockdown!" "" The one who will win is me!" From there it was a struggle and nuisance that struck more than physical strength. Even if we release full power from each other, they are both losing stamina at an incredible rate, the battle where neither attacks can hit each other continues, but even then they both smiled at such a game. There is no such thing as defeat if it hits, victory if it hit. They enjoyed the battle that can be tasted only here, the two of them. Among them, the armor worn by Sairaorg was completely destroyed. (Team imperial purpure) team, "Pawn" one retired! At last the regulus was retired! The accumulation of damage by the "beast" and the damage by the holy spear, the regulus had gone first. Even if the lion is gone, Sairaorg is living and closing towards Cao Cao! Cao Cao also lost the physical strength enough to keep prohibited hands and reverted by the normal state. Breathing was heavily,, sweat flow endlessly, blood spewing, was the two continued to attack but then And the time limit will come. (Time over! The match is over! The winner is -) After the time limit has passed, the team with the total number of total frames destroyed will be victorious! Both "kings" are still alive, which one was more destroyed? The voice of the referee echoes. "Team Spear of the Heavily Emperor" Cao Cao team's victory!

2018-07-09, 19:51	Link #1412
fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2018	@Lucidrago saji was not fighting like sairaog at all. And do not ignore this. I know martial arts. I don't get it what makes this fight different from issei vs yura and issei vs dulio and Koneko vs Kuroka. The CxC only took 4 of issei's pawn pieces. The same number of pieces saji has and what is wrong with using willpower. Not using it makes you weak and it means you telling the person to give up and the can't do anything about it. That goes against what Naruto's ninja way is. He never give up no matter how strong his enemy is. Someone tell me what makes issei vs saji any different from any fight i have seen. Really i want to know. Make me understand. Because i don't. And don't say this is issei vs sairaog because i still won't get. So please tell me so i can understand Last edited by fan; 2018-07-09 at 20:02.

2018-07-09, 18:39	Link #1405
fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2018	@Lucidrago you don't have to be a power type to fight in a fist fight. In vivid strike vivio isn't a power type she can't even take heavy hits like saji. She got up and beat rinne. Who was the favorite to win and a power type

2018-07-09, 19:31	Link #1409
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	@syzorst Still can't wait to read that fight. Thank you for this.

2018-07-09, 19:34	Link #1410
Palmito Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2017	"Cao Cao also lost the physical strength enough to keep prohibited hands and reverted by the normal state". What is this "prohibited hands"?

2018-07-09, 19:38	Link #1411
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	Ishibumi just writes it off as willpower. But yeah tanking a thousand punches from Issei and suddenly becoming Sairaorg was really just bad writing on Ishibumi's part.

2018-07-09, 21:26	Link #1414
fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2018	@Palmito ok i understand now. But this isn't issei vs sairaog 2.0. Issei punched kicked and blasted sairaog it wasn't just a fist fight. And both issei and saji respect sairaog. Saji called sairaog master. Saji doesn't want to be like sairaog. He wants to fight like issei that is who he compares himself to. It was said armor types are power types like dragons are a mass of energy or power. Vali also has a armor. You can say that forms like that are of the shape that is the closest to the ultimate for those who mainly fight using direct attacks. You wear a mass-of-power-like armour, and hit your opponent with it. That’s why it ends up in a form like that.] Ddraig tells me. I see. If you mainly fight in fist-fights, you get a good balance in terms of offence and defence by wearing the armour that is like a mass of power. That must be it, since I, who is also using it, also think that its true. This explains that if you fight in a fist fight you get armor. Since issei and sairaog are both power types so is saji. Saji is a technique and power type now he wasn't before he got his armor he wanted power to protect and got it. Saji also fought a longinus user walburga. She couldn't burn him anymore and he fought and survived grendal with broken bones. So i understand now but saji wanted to be a power type being a technique type got him nowhere

2018-07-09, 22:13	Link #1416
fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2018	@ Palmito but i understand what you are saying. How come you can't understand saji. He became a pawn the same time as issei. He thought they were the same. He thought he was above issei. He envied issei. He wanted everything issei has. Power , his master to be with him and a goal. Tell have you ever seen saji use all of his powers. Saji knew about issei going into his dragon form the juggernaut. He did the same thing in volume 7 out of control dragon form. But if you want to blame on the author find the author is the bad guy now he made a mistake he ruined saji

2018-07-09, 22:34	Link #1417
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	When Sairaorg enters BotB: Cao Cao: "Fckfckfckfckfck! Don't think about anything else! Just keep dodging!" Sairaorg: "Fckfckfckfckfck! Don't think about the pain! Just keep hitting!" While Saji is a hand-to-hand fighter taking Issei head on in a fist fight is quite unrealistic. Yes he has good offense and defense but just discarding all those abilities he has and just having Saji go for a straight-up fistfight against Issei was quite ridiculous. Having Saji combine his hand-to-hand with Vritra's abilities would have been more sufficient than making Saji a pure power-type. Since Saji is a technique-type, I would have expected Saji to actually give him quite a hard fight considering that he was exhausted and was at a natural disadvantage against Saji. Saji would go at him with hand-to-hand while using his abilities.

2018-07-09, 22:48	Link #1418
fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2018	@Lucidrago saji fought another technique type it said he had bad compatibility with the guy he fought in volume 21. What i am saying yes saji is a technique type but has he like being one. I have only seen him use only two abilities. He might strong scary even if he uses all of his abilities he wouldn't need his armor

2018-07-10, 01:17	Link #1419
Lex79 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Italy	I feel for Sairaorg. His only speciality is close quarter combat and he isn't even allowed to defeat a human technique type in melee. Yeah, I'm partial because I like Sairaorg as a character far more than Cao Cao.

2018-07-10, 01:31	Link #1420
Lucidrago Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: United States	They're both great characters. They do serve as the perfect contrast to each other. Cao Cao is considered a genius who was born with the most powerful Longinus and was most likely trained by Sakra. Despite simply being a human was gifted with so much. While Sairaorg was the first son of Lord Bael and was the heir of the highest-ranked house of the 72 Pillars. Yet despite that, he was born with low demonic powers and didn't even inherit his house's trait which is the Power of Destruction. So he was discarded by his own house as someone without worth. And he had to train to the limits to even gain power to take back the position of heir that was rightfully is. Cao Cao got to the top with his powerful weapon and overflowing talents(not saying he doesn't train). Despite being born a simple human. While Sairaorg was born with nothing and had to work hard for everything he had gotten. Despite being born a devil of the House of Bael. And being born a high-class devil who are more often than not blessed with power.