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Old 2016-02-06, 20:38   Link #5121
Amuris
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what myopius said. If she can even hold onto the skill so that it doesn't just go elsewhere, she would be the subject of whatever compensated attack the Maoyuu system has. The cap wouldn't matter, if it was tied to the hero's power, the hero wouldn't need that compensation in the first place. It's the system lending power again.

Also, your misunderstanding the system and it's affects. It's not that the magic that makes up the system wouldn't affect her, its that any portion of it based on an individual's power would fall short of her own individual abilities. The system is using the power in the MA Area. She became a god by sucking up a portion of what was taken out of the MA Area. The store of energy in the MA Area would likely exceed her own.
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Old 2016-02-06, 20:40   Link #5122
cabman11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myopius View Post
Yeah, I think that compensation was implied. Here's one of the relevant sections, which I ended up looking up.
As for whether Shiro would be in danger (theoretically)... I think it depends on the degree of assistance provided by the system. The system itself has a huge amount of energy. She plans to obtain all the ruler authorities, and remove the maoyuu system too, in order to provide the missing 10% of the system's energy, but I forget exactly what order she plans to do that in.

Shiro isn't "in" the system any more, but the system is fundamentally just a way of turning souls into computers which produce skills based on the soul's power, something which Shiro now has to do manually. She can do more now that's she outside the system, and the power of her soul is god-level, but considering how big a deal the MA energy shortage is, Itthink that the system's total power is clearly not an amount of power that any god can easily match.
Since the goddess is actually used to support it I think the system's actually worth maybe one or two gods.
And I'm sure they have more power than the totality of the system that she made.
Remember that 70% was used just to attack kuro.

But here's another question? Where would they get the authority to use that much power in the first place from the system?
And there is also limit to how much power they can use before it kills them.
And there is a set limit of power the system will not provide them.
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Old 2016-02-06, 20:45   Link #5123
Amuris
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your assuming the power is going into the hero, rather than being used directly as an attack. I doubt that the old hero and maou absorbed the energy before shooting it out. That would be the same as attempting Shiro's method of apotheosis.

Also, remember that Shiro's total power is distinctly less then Kuro's still.
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Old 2016-02-06, 20:55   Link #5124
cabman11
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Quote:
what myopius said. If she can even hold onto the skill so that it doesn't just go elsewhere, she would be the subject of whatever compensated attack the Maoyuu system has. The cap wouldn't matter, if it was tied to the hero's power, the hero wouldn't need that compensation in the first place. It's the system lending power again.

Also, your misunderstanding the system and it's affects. It's not that the magic that makes up the system wouldn't affect her, its that any portion of it based on an individual's power would fall short of her own individual abilities. The system is using the power in the MA Area. She became a god by sucking up a portion of what was taken out of the MA Area. The store of energy in the MA Area would likely exceed her own.
You guys seem to misunderstand the fundamental problem she was having.

The "title" and "skills" that comes with being defeated by the hero mean nothing.
The problem is the energy that is associated with the title and skills.
The fundamental problem is that upon death of whoever got killed by the hero that energy was supposed to return to the system.
Since she's not connected to the system, the energy that came along with the title was supposed to return to the system but didn't and was wasted into the atmosphere upon her clones death.

And another misunderstanding you guys are having
that title and skill do not exist to help the hero. They exist to help the Demon Lord or to be precise it helps develop another Demon Lord.

All in all it wasn't anything more than a system bug or a glitch you might find in any game.

Recap:
1.Absolutely nothing of a threat to her because it's just the "system" losing energy because it does not return back when her clone dies because she's outside the system. And also it's not an "attack" because it's just the granting of a "title". So unless he can out attack with.....

2:It doesn't help the hero because it actually helps create another Demon Lord.

In short it's just a minor glitch caused by the hero attacking her clones.
The glitch that would probably happen if he killed anything that's outside the system
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Old 2016-02-06, 20:59   Link #5125
cabman11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuris View Post
your assuming the power is going into the hero, rather than being used directly as an attack. I doubt that the old hero and maou absorbed the energy before shooting it out. That would be the same as attempting Shiro's method of apotheosis.

Also, remember that Shiro's total power is distinctly less then Kuro's still.
It's not an attack. It's just granting a title and loss of energy because it doesn't go back.
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Old 2016-02-06, 21:44   Link #5126
Amuris
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I see where your confused. We aren't talking about that. We're talking about a different affect that was mentioned some time ago. One that lets the hero defeat the maou. Your thinking of something else that was only brought up recently.

also, you misunderstood about the glitch. The glitch was that it affected someone like Shiro, who is outside the system. On it's own, it's a feature. It loans energy (the title). If they die, the energy is recovered immediately. If they survive, it's an investment that they will build up before they die.

again, though, let me be clear about this. we're talking about something else. A different affect that was hinted before that.
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Old 2016-02-06, 21:54   Link #5127
myopius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
The "title" and "skills" that comes with being defeated by the hero mean nothing.
The problem is the energy that is associated with the title and skills.
The fundamental problem is that upon death of whoever got killed by the hero that energy was supposed to return to the system.
Since she's not connected to the system, the energy that came along with the title was supposed to return to the system but didn't and was wasted into the atmosphere upon her clones death.
Yeah, as Amuris said, these are 2 different issues. The chapter you're referring to (/369/) did talk about how titles result in an energy imbalance... right after ending an explanation of the "Defeated by the Hero" title which Shiro got after one of her spy clones was killed by Julius, which included the note that people who have the "maou" skill (granted by that title) are more likely to be chosen as the next maou. That second part is potentially foreshadowing, and it's just about whether Shiro becomes the maou, not whether Shun is a threat to her. The whole energy thing you're talking about is unrelated, I think.

Quote:
And another misunderstanding you guys are having
that title and skill do not exist to help the hero. They exist to help the Demon Lord or to be precise it helps develop another Demon Lord.
Well, the titles i.e. the upgrade which added the maou/hero just exists because D thought it'd be amusing. The skills just make it easier to be chosen for the title, multiple people can have them.

In any case, it's not about titles or skills, it's about the way the system works relative to the hero and maou. Personal translation of what I quoted in the top post of this page (kari-no-sugata isn't quite there yet, still ~11 chapters ahead):
Spoiler:
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Old 2016-02-06, 21:59   Link #5128
Pielord Miniman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myopius View Post
Well, the titles i.e. the upgrade which added the maou/hero just exists because D thought it'd be amusing. The skills just make it easier to be chosen for the title, multiple people can have them.

In any case, it's not about titles or skills, it's about the way the system works relative to the hero and maou. Personal translation of what I quoted in the top post of this page (kari-no-sugata isn't quite there yet, still ~11 chapters ahead):
Spoiler:

I interpreted this a different way. As in that she was talking about it as a fact of probability, as in eventually a Hero would appear that's strong enough to defeat the Demon Lord. Although upon seeing it again I can see that the way you see it makes sense too. Now I'm not so sure...




Quote:
Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
The fundamental problem is that upon death of whoever got killed by the hero that energy was supposed to return to the system.
Since she's not connected to the system, the energy that came along with the title was supposed to return to the system but didn't and was wasted into the atmosphere upon her clones death.
Do you have a source on this one cuz I can't seem to remember it?
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Old 2016-02-06, 22:14   Link #5129
cabman11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielord Miniman View Post

Do you have a source on this one cuz I can't seem to remember it?
Ch 240 Hero title (ch369)
Quote:
Well then, from where is that awarded? The answer is, the System and the MA Area.

Normally, for the skills gained from a Title, if the person who received them trains even a little bit by the time they die, then the balance becomes net positive overall, okay. Or perhaps, expecting that is why there’s Titles in the System. Like with a loan, when a Title is lent, the accumulated interest is returned on death, as it were. But, in the current situation of desperate times, lending out MA Energy is something that I want to avoid. We’re too hard up.

So, what’s actually troublesome, is the “Subjugated by the Hero” Titles being obtained by those defeated by the Hero. I, have gotten one of those too.

Hey, it’s not anything like I actually wanted to gain this, okay? Or rather, I hadn’t thought I could actually gain it even. After apotheosis I’m totally outside the system anyway. But, I was able to gain it, mysteriously enough.

For the origin, you could think of it being like my fault for clumsily hacking the System. Because of that a strange response occurred, a bit like a bug. When the Hero defeated one of my clones, that Title came along. Of course, the Title couldn’t be sustained as is, so the instant it was received automatically the amount of Energy was reduced. That happened together with my clone being defeated. Umm, yeah. Here I am saying that the amount of Energy is bad, then the next minute I’m pointlessly wasting that Energy. Well, for the current me this was unavoidable. It’s bad that I got it, but I only noticed it after I got it. For now, I’ll starting hacking the managed data in that area, as that bug must get fixed.
Spoiler:
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Old 2016-02-06, 22:15   Link #5130
Von Himmel
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Quote:
The whole energy thing you're talking about is unrelated, I think.
No,it is related. Getting a title is like receiving energy from MA area (?) as a form of investment. It's a free energy that will develop through time after people raises the skill obtained from it which then the energy will be collected as interest when they died, or so as long as they're part of the system. D made a bug or traits for whatever reason and gives free energy for those who are killed by the hero/maou, which doesn't mean anything since the energy will be returned immediately since they are killed right after they obtained the title/free energy (of course if the defeated person happens to be an immortal, the loaned energy can actually be useful). In Shiro's case, the energy from 'subjugated by the hero' can't be collected as they're not part of the system when they are killed and thus 'waste of energy'. Shiro herself appear to believe that the reason why she obtained this free energy is because she hacked the system sloppily, which doesn't mean that she's part of the system.

Anyway the bug should be fixed right after that chapter if Shiro isn't procrastinating that much.

Quote:
Do you have a source on this one cuz I can't seem to remember it?
Read chapter 240 again.
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Old 2016-02-06, 22:40   Link #5131
Pielord Miniman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
Ch 240 Hero title (ch369)


Spoiler:
Ok, you're reading this wrong. What happened is she got the title [Defeated by the Hero] after her clone was killed and then immediately turned the resulting titles directly into energy for herself and she was lamenting that she accidentally took energy from the already deteriorating system. It was a one time thing only applicable to her because she was half in the system due to hacking it. She immediately began to fix as something of an afterthought (and going by the tone she used, fixed quite quickly)

The reason she wants to dismantle it is not because of this bug, but the very system by which Heroes and Demon Lords are chosen and given titles and skills holds a large percentage of the systems energy. (Or maybe it's the titles themselves that hold the energy but that's not important)
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Old 2016-02-06, 22:52   Link #5132
Von Himmel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielord Miniman View Post
The reason she wants to dismantle it is not because of this bug, but the very system by which Heroes and Demon Lords are chosen and given titles and skills holds a large percentage of the systems energy. (Or maybe it's the titles themselves that hold the energy but that's not important)
You're taking more assumption than him, there's nothing that indicates that it's taking large percentage of the energy. Cabman assumption about losing energy has its merit because of the talk about energy interest upon death and etc from the same chapter. I think it's still an assumption since the line about her wasting energy is rather vague, but I'm taking his interpretation.

The only part I remember about being a hero/Maou (the real one) have large energy is from later chapter when they talk about killing the hero to regain 3% energy IIRC
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Old 2016-02-06, 22:55   Link #5133
cabman11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielord Miniman View Post
Ok, you're reading this wrong. What happened is she got the title [Defeated by the Hero] after her clone was killed and then immediately turned the resulting titles directly into energy for herself and she was lamenting that she accidentally took energy from the already deteriorating system. It was a one time thing only applicable to her because she was half in the system due to hacking it. She immediately began to fix as something of an afterthought (and going by the tone she used, fixed quite quickly)
The reason she wants to dismantle it is not because of this bug, but the very system by which Heroes and Demon Lords are chosen and given titles and skills holds a large percentage of the systems energy. (Or maybe it's the titles themselves that hold the energy but that's not important)
That's basically the same thing I just said. I never had a problem with that.
Just those guys were saying that somehow this was an attack that could harm her
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:09   Link #5134
Pielord Miniman
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
You're taking more assumption than him, there's nothing that indicates that it's taking large percentage of the energy. Cabman assumption about losing energy has its merit because of the talk about energy interest upon death and etc from the same chapter. I think it's still an assumption since the line about her wasting energy is rather vague, but I'm taking his interpretation.

The only part I remember about being a hero/Maou (the real one) have large energy is from later chapter when they talk about killing the hero to regain 3% energy IIRC
That 3% is what I was talking about. She said it was from dismantling the Hero system and killing the Hero was necessary for that.

From Chapter 252

「システム崩壊に先立って、勇者システムの停止をする。勇者システムに掛かるエネルギーの回収で、おおよそ 3%の回復が見込める」

Here [勇者システムに掛かるエネルギー] she specifically refers to it as the [The energy wrapped up in the Hero System] Implying that it's not the hero himself with is but the Hero and Demon Lord System as a whole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
That's basically the same thing I just said. I never had a problem with that.
Just those guys were saying that somehow this was an attack that could harm her
Yeah you're right, sorry I read too deeply into it...
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:20   Link #5135
Von Himmel
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Quote:
Here [勇者システムに掛かるエネルギー] she specifically refers to it as the [The energy wrapped up in the Hero System] Implying that it's not the hero himself with is but the Hero and Demon Lord System as a whole.
I think the system itself is the one that holds 3%, but what I mean is that the energy obtained from being killed by the hero (i.e the title and skills obtained) doesn't hold 3% of energy, which is what I thought what you want to say.

Speaking of that line though, if getting the hero killed is enough to suspend the system and with how Kuro doesn't want the hero to be killed, does that mean normally the hero won't ever be killed? Or does that only work if it's not Maou who kills the hero?
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:21   Link #5136
Amuris
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Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
That's basically the same thing I just said. I never had a problem with that.
Just those guys were saying that somehow this was an attack that could harm her
again, cabman, we're talking about a different line. It's a different part that we're talking about we're it says that the hero will always defeat the maou, not the title part.
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:34   Link #5137
cabman11
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Originally Posted by Amuris View Post
again, cabman, we're talking about a different line. It's a different part that we're talking about we're it says that the hero will always defeat the maou, not the title part.
I just went back and checked and it absolutely does not say that anywhere. It says the heroes only reason for existence is to defeat the Demon Lord.
That means that the Demon Lord will always have a rival known as the hero coming after them. It does not mean that the hero will always defeat the Demon Lord and it does not say that anywhere.
The normal Demon Lord will eventually die because a hero will always be coming (.unless he fends them all off and died from old age)

There's nothing special about the hero outside of that and I don't gain any special powers or secret abilities.

In the case of Ariel it's impossible for the hero to defeat her. They will not beat her no matter how many keep coming because she's already reached a level of "broken" for it to even matter how many keep coming anymore.
And the only reason she never became demon lord before is because she doesn't want to be dragged into this troublesome endless game of cat and mouse with a never ending stream of idiots coming to die
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:40   Link #5138
Pielord Miniman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
I think the system itself is the one that holds 3%, but what I mean is that the energy obtained from being killed by the hero (i.e the title and skills obtained) doesn't hold 3% of energy, which is what I thought what you want to say.

Speaking of that line though, if getting the hero killed is enough to suspend the system and with how Kuro doesn't want the hero to be killed, does that mean normally the hero won't ever be killed? Or does that only work if it's not Maou who kills the hero?
I assumed that You'd need to a lot more than just kill the hero and Shiro had preparations in her system hacking that would make it possible.

Kuro probably doesn't want the Hero killed, because as Shiro said, he's too nice and doesn't like unnecessary violence and hence wouldn't approve of Shiro arbitrarily killing off humanities hope.


Did that answer your question cuz I'm not quite sure what you're asking...





Quote:
Originally Posted by cabman11 View Post
The normal Demon Lord will eventually die because a hero will always be coming. (unless he fends them all off and died from old age)


There's nothing special about the hero outside of that and I don't gain any special powers or secret abilities.
This is what I assumed as well
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:40   Link #5139
Amuris
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@Cabman

Quote:
Originally Posted by myopius View Post

Personal translation of what I quoted in the top post of this page (kari-no-sugata isn't quite there yet, still ~11 chapters ahead):
Spoiler:
just gonna borrow myopius' work here.
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Old 2016-02-06, 23:44   Link #5140
Von Himmel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielord Miniman View Post
I assumed that You'd need to a lot more than just kill the hero and Shiro had preparations in her system hacking that would make it possible.

Kuro probably doesn't want the Hero killed, because as Shiro said, he's too nice and doesn't like unnecessary violence and hence wouldn't approve of Shiro arbitrarily killing off humanities hope.


Did that answer your question cuz I'm not quite sure what you're asking...
Hm yeah, you're probably right. I forgot about the part where Maou can fend off hero but might lose by the next generation of hero so just by killing the hero isn't enough; Shiro might pull some other trick to suspend the system...or it could be like what I said, as long as the Maou is the one who killed the hero, the system will still work normally.
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