(L) Space Dandy (seasons 1-2)

[MCAL]

Interesting read. Leads more credence to the notion that Space Dandy is a show that doesn't stoop down and pander to the otaku common denominator (I swear this will eventually become a phrase).

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by MCAL

Interesting read. Leads more credence to the notion that Space Dandy is a show that doesn't stoop down and pander to the otaku common denominator (I swear this will eventually become a phrase).

And lo, how it's been hated for that...

[MK-95-]

K, so the first half of the episode was funny with QT getting addicted to fishing & whatnot. Also, pissing off scarlet let us see a side of her that I didn't know she had, so that's a plus. I lol'd when the chameleon aline took the form of the middle aged man & then they did the roll call, they finally realized something was wrong.

The second half however, had me scratching my head a bit. For one, I was getting frustrated at watching them try to catch that chameleon alien. Their stupidity didn't make it funny, I was actually getting pretty pissed.

Then, the very last few minutes delivered a small mindfuck IMO. When the cliche I'm me & I'm you clone/imposter vs original took place, I got mindfucked when the camera came off of them. When they were parodying "who wants to be a millionaire" we clearly knew which was the fake because him being friendly to Meow & QT is next to impossible. But as soon as the camera came off, I got pretty damn lost.

Hell, even the narrator got confused & he's usually the one to set things straight at the end of the episode.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Isn't this series being criticised for having "Western pandering" or whatever shiz people call it. Always found it ironic tbh.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And lo, how it's been hated for that...

That's not the reason it's hated

Most people hate it because they find it unfunny and silly. I hate it because they're squandering the potential of the premise. With the kind of setting they have here, the only limit is the imagination of the creators, and yet almost every episode has been either treading old ground or focused on completely meaningless and/or nonsensical stuff. Not an ounce of originality in there. There are two episodes I would consider great, brilliant even, but the rest is plain bad. The hit and miss humor (that's a complete miss for me, there are maybe only two jokes I found funny) doesn't help. The only thing saving this show is its animation.

That said, I'm not giving up on this show yet. My all time favorite Gintama (it's actually pretty similar to Dandy when I think about it, the main difference is that Gintama is a very Japanese show whereas Dandy is more Western) took a good 20 episodes to kick into gear and really make full use of its setting that offers limitless possibilities just like Dandy's.

[foxbox360]

I can see why this show is popular in the States, there are a lot of western references here.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by foxbox360

I can see why this show is popular in the States, there are a lot of western references here.

Indeed. I wouldn't call it pandering, but nobody can deny this show is trying to appeal to Westerners more than the Japanese. And apparently, it works!

You can't blame the Japanese for feeling a bit alienated by this show. It's not a matter of not liking anything that isn't moe, it just isn't what they're used to.

[foxbox360]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Indeed. I wouldn't call it pandering, but nobody can deny this show is trying to appeal to Westerners more than the Japanese. And apparently, it works!

You can't blame the Japanese for feeling a bit alienated by this show. It's not a matter of not liking anything that isn't moe, it just isn't what they're used to.

I thank the popularity of Cowboy bebop and Samurai Champloo, what made this show a hit in the wests. Those reruns on adult swim on Cartoon Network really payoff and the director of Space Dandy made them as well.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

That's not the reason it's hated

Roll your eyes all you want - that's one of the main reasons for a lot of the hate it's received whether you care to admit it or not. It was pre-judged by many people before the first episode ever aired.

[Dop]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It was pre-judged by many people before the first episode ever aired.

I'd have to agree with that. I suspect a lot of the hate comes from people who had decided that this was going to be "Cowboy Bebop v2.0" and 'save anime' before so much as a single frame had aired, and despite anything Watanabe had actually said!

Then when it didn't live up to their insanely unrealistic and misguided expectations, they decided it was "Worst... Anime... Ever...!" as Comic Book Guy would have it.
More fool them!

[Guardian Enzo]

It also has something to do with resentment over an anime trying to be a financial success without pandering to the small group of fans whose commercial hold over the industry has given them the sense that they call the shots - and they like it. How dare they do that? And the fact that it seems to have succeeded is just that much more fuel to the fire.

[MCAL]

Also I really disagree about lack of originality or that all the episodes tread old ground. Except for maybe Episode 1 and 3, each episode has been vastly different from each other. Perhaps not content wise, but there's also narrative style or direction where Space Dandy has been different. And there's been originality too with the second half of episode 4 (The zombie episode) and episode 11 (The library episode).

EDIT: And even if all the episode did the same thing, what's so wrong with that? Execution is what matters the most.

[MK-95-]

In terms of originality, Space Dandy is original in itself. The concepts it presents may not be original because obviously, they'd have been used in another series, etc...

But, what establishes Dandy as original in itself is the fact that they sometimes use different art & animation styles/techniques. They also constantly switch from randomness, to comedy or drama & I can't forget the mindfucks, now can I? So they aren't using a constant genre, but rather juggle between them.

Also noteworthy is the fact that while episodic in nature, the episodes do tie into each other & create a plot with the whole "Dandy = The truth" situation. ie. The key to the multiverse.

[JKL]

Originally Posted by Kanon

That's not the reason it's hated

Most people hate it because they find it unfunny and silly. I hate it because they're squandering the potential of the premise. With the kind of setting they have here, the only limit is the imagination of the creators, and yet almost every episode has been either treading old ground or focused on completely meaningless and/or nonsensical stuff. Not an ounce of originality in there.

Absolutely this. References ≠ automatic funny.

I don't hate it though, just completely disinterested.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Roll your eyes all you want - that's one of the main reasons for a lot of the hate it's received whether you care to admit it or not. It was pre-judged by many people before the first episode ever aired.

Have you really heard anybody say this sucks because it doesn't have enough cute girls? Most of the criticism from what I see is about the comedy and the characters, and it's perfectly valid. Just because you like it doesn't mean everybody else has to, and that the people who don't are close-minded otakus.

There have been quite a few anti-moe anime those past few years, and they were liked just fine. How do you explain that?

Originally Posted by Dop

I'd have to agree with that. I suspect a lot of the hate comes from people who had decided that this was going to be "Cowboy Bebop v2.0" and 'save anime' before so much as a single frame had aired, and despite anything Watanabe had actually said!

Then when it didn't live up to their insanely unrealistic and misguided expectations, they decided it was "Worst... Anime... Ever...!" as Comic Book Guy would have it.
More fool them!

This is true, but it has nothing to do with them going against the moe trend. Hell, most of the kind of people you're talking about are moe haters yet they're the ones who hate Dandy the most.

The real moe otakus probably never bothered to watch this in the first place and couldn't care less about it. It's not going to affect them.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Have you really heard anybody say this sucks because it doesn't have enough cute girls? Most of the criticism from what I see is about the comedy and the characters, and it's perfectly valid. Just because you like it doesn't mean everybody else has to, and that the people who don't are close-minded otakus.

There have been quite a few anti-moe anime those past few years, and they were liked just fine. How do you explain that?

You seem to explain away Space Dandy's lack of success of Japan, and its success in the states as a result of the creators attempting to appeal to the west and not Japan.

But wait a minute... What did Space Dandy do that was so un-Japanese? I remember thinking about episodes like the one with Meow's family that it still retained a very Japanese flavor. The house was still a Japanese style house, the family had Japanese style mannerisms, etc.

Other episodes that were very Japanese were like episode 5, and the one about Jiro Ramen (that is going to fly over the western fandom's heads you would think). I wonder how a series that tries to appeal solely to Westerners can be so Japanese, yet only find great success in the West.

Space Dandy still retains a lot of Japanese culture within it, but it does expand beyond those boundaries. SOMETHING in Space Dandy then must not appeal to, wait a minute, the otaku buyer's market. And if you're like me, you know what that means. If you can't appeal to 2Chan with the typical nonsense, and while moe is part of this it is not strictly limited to moe, then your show is dead on arrival.

It is clear to me that Space Dandy's very foundation was rejected by the likes of 2chan for attempting to go away from the typical models of success in the industry.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But wait a minute... What did Space Dandy do that was so un-Japanese? I remember thinking about episodes like the one with Meow's family that it still retained a very Japanese flavor. The house was still a Japanese style house, the family had Japanese style mannerisms, etc.

Presenting elements of Japanese culture for certain characters that only show up in a single episode doesn't cut it, at all.

Space Dandy still retains a lot of Japanese culture within it, but it does expand beyond those boundaries. SOMETHING in Space Dandy then must not appeal to, wait a minute, the otaku buyer's market. And if you're like me, you know what that means. If you can't appeal to 2Chan with the typical nonsense, and while moe is part of this it is not strictly limited to moe, then your show is dead on arrival.

I hardly see anything really "japanese" in there, similarly how the presentation of CB and SC hardly is "typically japanese" (not involving anything related to moe whatsoever).
I find it funny that some people glorify the series "due to the lack of moe" whereas it has its own share of "pandering" as in the blatant fanservice.

It is clear to me that Space Dandy's very foundation was rejected by the likes of 2chan for attempting to go away from the typical models of success in the industry.

...As someone who doesn't read japanese, nor skim around 2ch (not 2chan by the way), your assertion isn't exactly pertinent. Also, even some episodes such like ep5 and 9 actually got many praises as well, which is arguably not what they are used to.
The early complaints about Space Dandy on 2ch were pretty much the following: "can't get whats going on lol!" "where is the plot?" "Dandy is an idiot and keep going with the same jokes" "Meow is lame!".
It took the zombie episode for the audience to go with comments like "well, anime that doesn't need you to think about it can be good sometimes..." and the likes.

In a nutshell, the japanese audience doesn't actually see where the series is going to: it is all about package and style, but it doesn't go anywhere. It isn't like they need a fantastic plot etc, but episodical series (that aren't pure slapstick comedy) that doesn't progress much are often dismissed early. They are usually bound to like a series for characters they can appreciate/relate to, and suffice to say, only QT made a good impression early on.

By the way, kill la kill is hardly anything close to "typical model of success", yet it isn't bashed to death on 2ch, and the sales are more than satisfactory. So Space Dandy's issues with Japanese audience lies elsewhere.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You seem to explain away Space Dandy's lack of success of Japan, and its success in the states as a result of the creators attempting to appeal to the west and not Japan.

But wait a minute... What did Space Dandy do that was so un-Japanese? I remember thinking about episodes like the one with Meow's family that it still retained a very Japanese flavor. The house was still a Japanese style house, the family had Japanese style mannerisms, etc.

Other episodes that were very Japanese were like episode 5, and the one about Jiro Ramen (that is going to fly over the western fandom's heads you would think). I wonder how a series that tries to appeal solely to Westerners can be so Japanese, yet only find great success in the West.

Those are the only two episodes like that, and they happen to be among the three best received episodes of the series. Not just because they had a more Japanese feel , but because they had an actual story to tell and gave more depth to the characters. And here lies Space dandy's true problem: it's all style over substance. Episodes are random, non-sensical, and feel meaningless; the characters are barely developed and not very likable. And no, this is not an issue inherent to episodic series.

It's silly to argue Space Dandy is hated because it's anti-moe when there are others series that are just as if not more anti-moe that did just fine. The most recent example I can think of is Psycho-pass (self-proclaimed anti-moe show as well), it was well received everywhere and had pretty good sales. Another example would be Kaiji, it's very popular and loved (though I don't know how much it sells) yet it's as anti-moe as it gets (they actually marketed it as an anti-moe anime).

There's another issue I want to bring up about the comedy this time: the lack of tsukkomi is really unusual for anime. All of the three main characters are bokkes (hell, they're even called BBP) and there's nobody to react to their antics. When you're used to the tsukkomi/bokke routine, it feels really weird and unfunny. In fact, the one joke I can remember that made me laugh was the one in Meow's episode where the narrator reacted to their idiocy ("We've gotten superpowers" - "That's not it!!!"). This might be another reason the Japanese can't get into this series.

Lastly, I'll say that it's more interesting and constructive to try to understand where the haters come from instead of just dismissing them as a bunch of "otakus" (in a very derogatory fashion). Seems kind of close-minded to me.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Those are the only two episodes like that, and they happen to be among the three best received episodes of the series. Not just because they had a more Japanese feel , but because they had an actual story to tell and gave more depth to the characters. And here lies Space dandy's true problem: it's all style over substance. Episodes are random, non-sensical, and feel meaningless; the characters are barely developed and not very likable. And no, this is not an issue inherent to episodic series.

I think many episodes of Space Dandy have in fact brought in some very interesting and amusing ideas and twists on typical sci fi setups. Lots of creativity in this anime, both visually and in the writing.

Does it have deep characters? No. Does it have a grand over arching storyline? Maybe, but that's not really important. Is it meaningless? Depends on what the viewer wants.

I don't think Space Dandy held any pretense of what you want you seemed to want though.

It's silly to argue Space Dandy is hated because it's anti-moe when there are others series that are just as if not more anti-moe that did just fine. The most recent example I can think of is Psycho-pass (self-proclaimed anti-moe show as well), it was well received everywhere and had pretty good sales. Another example would be Kaiji, it's very popular and loved (though I don't know how much it sells) yet it's as anti-moe as it gets (they actually marketed it as an anti-moe anime).

Moe is just the popular buzz word to bring up, but I would just say more generally that Space Dandy just isn't very otaku.

Some shows break away from that, I won't deny that. Don't bring up Psycho Pass though. That had the buy in effect of the popular Urobuchi Gen. Kaiji is a more legitimate example, but that anime is also very main stream. So much so it has live action adaptions.

Originally Posted by Kanon

There's another issue I want to bring up about the comedy this time: the lack of tsukkomi is really unusual for anime. All of the three main characters are bokkes (hell, they're even called BBP) and there's nobody to react to their antics. When you're used to the tsukkomi/bokke routine, it feels really weird and unfunny. In fact, the one joke I can remember that made me laugh was the one in Meow's episode where the narrator reacted to their idiocy ("We've gotten superpowers" - "That's not it!!!"). This might be another reason the Japanese can't get into this series.

Sometimes it's nice to not have a character yelling in response to everyone's actions though. As for whether this affects Japanese viewers, possibly, but I don't think that's the issue.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Lastly, I'll say that it's more interesting and constructive to try to understand where the haters come from instead of just dismissing them as a bunch of "otakus" (in a very derogatory fashion). Seems kind of close-minded to me.

I have no problem with people saying they find the show unfunny or things of that nature. Comedy is a hard genre, and what works for some may not work for others. I enjoy the humor in a show like Silver Spoon for example, but I know many don't really care for Arakawa's humor. What some find entertaining and amusing, others don't.

What I do have a problem with is that some people from the very start have been criticizing this series for being exactly like Watanabe said it would be like. He said Cowboy Bebop was 80% serious and 20% comedy, whereas Space Dandy would be the opposite and compared it to the Bebop episode Mushroom Samba in terms of tone. This is clearly not Cowboy Bebop and it never intended to be like that show. The people who continually harp on Space Dandy not having extremely complex themes and not providing deep characterization were never going to like this show and those are the people I'm going to dismiss.

There is a lot about Space Dandy that is steeped in Japanese culture, regardless of how people want to deny it. I already pointed multiple examples from a few episodes. I could do more if necessary. I just came in here today to express that the idea that this show was geared solely towards Westerners and not Japanese is totally bogus to me. What should be said is that this series is not geared towards otaku, and I think that helps to explain a lack of its success in Japan. That's fine of course, this series is made with international audiences in mind (That I am not denying) and I am glad it was at least successful in the States.

[Guardian Enzo]

Japanese culture is all over Space Dandy, but most of it pre-dates the period of the last few years before which most anime fans seem to think the world didn't exist. It's also mostly Japanese culture that's outside the sliver of pop culture that otaku mostly confine themselves to. Japanese films, older TV dramas, old-school anime - it's laced throughout the entire series.