Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

The way the story is going, the final enemy should be the Ministry of Welfare, and not the Sibyl System they set up, unless those two are one and the same. Whoever runs that Ministry still has not explained how or why they came up with this scheme. After all, the Sibyl System would seem to be composed mostly or entirely of sociopaths of the criminal sort (since a non-violent sociopath would not be caught and brought in), and who in their right mind would turn their government and judiciary over to a bunch of murderers? They didn't even bother removing free will from the brains.

It really doesn't matter which government branch is responsible. The main issue is what to do about it.

The population is practically glued together socially by faith in Sibyl. Even though it is best to dismantle it ASAP, by a grenade if it comes to it, there is a serious question of the aftermath.

How do you recreate an entire country's laws from scratch? And to suddenly re-educate everyone? How do you teach self-control when people are used to have their actions determined by what they assumed to be an omnipotent being?

How to prevent the worst case scenario of anarchy?

It might be best to shut down Sibyl but pretend it didn't happen. The population is too stupid to notice the change unless you tell them. The advantage of a faith based Theocracy is that you can change the one in charge and the peons won't even notice. Unplug the psycho brains, have normal humans make decisions, and slowly create a new system of government over time. It would be a dictatorship in the beginning, but that's not any different from what they have right now.

[Lenneth4]

It's me or i saw a new character in the beginning ?

[garbage]

this is pretty heavy " as the only country ruled by LAW..."
so it's true psychopass Japan is the only Sibyl user , and the only civilized nation at that point(?), that's why they need the lethal border guard drones. I can almost understand how the creators would establish Sibyl if the alternative would be anarchy and chaos like the rest of the world, and yes it seems it was presented as a purely mechanical system and was accepted as such, yet now it shows it still is humans who judge other humans.and it's absolutely confirmed brains like Makishima powers sibyl.
That director(s)/Sibyl really sh*t not only making it seem Kagari escaped, but laying the blame for that on Gino&akanes team to lean on them. Of course it's literally fighting for it's own survival, I find it funny that it's actions this& the previous episode was never about justice or humanity or even Law but in it's own survival and maintaining (+recruiting Makishima) the status quo as "Gods of this world". So Shitty Brains Judging/Ruling over other people & using them, with Arrogance no less, presenting themselves as perfect, intoxicated by their own omnipotence & immortality striving to maintain their own power...whew sounds like present day politicians,,, nyahahah

well one thing i quite agree with Makishima, "...I.m not into being a umpire or a referee,...I love this game...so I'd like to participate in it as a player...". that's why I don't enjoy watching sports as much as playing. ^^of course he is referring to the game of life, but it's pretty much the same. it's a matter of lifestyle or lifeattitude. Still he's a bloody bastard.

What I said ! what I said !, falling last episode against that attack by Akane's nothing. what Makishima does after getting caught will define him...and so here we go to Akane(will she regret not killing him?)+Kou (will he finally win against Makishima&get his revenge?) VS Makishima (will he finally topple Sibyl, does he even have a plan for after?)

PS: loved how the team would not take the BS the director told them about Kagari(not sure about Gino though) but Kou for sure would not believe for a second that Kagari would escape and abandom them.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Another revelation is that this fictional society is presumably the last society on Earth ruled by law. If we are to take this new information at face value, it would mean that the world is teetering between two extremes. In a sense you could view Sybil as a sort of extreme reaction towards the rising trend of anarchy in the world. Of course, my interpretation of that offhand line should be taken with a grain of salt.

No. That's just Sybil being self important and exhibiting meglomania. Of course it'd view any society less authoritarian than itself as being operating essentially under anarchy. Sybil isn't exactly an unbiased authority on what the rest of the world should be like, especially when it's talking about things so vaguely.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Lastly, instead of a dictatorship as I initially assumed, the mode of governance used in the society is actually much closer to an aristocracy, where only the best minds are given the power to rule. To further complement that, these minds are robbed of that tendency for corruption and self-interest that plagues the human condition so much. They're all simply reduced to brains-in-a-vat determined to make the most efficient possible decision. You could even call it a grotesque caricature of Plato's ideal society.

Except these aren't just brains in vats. The brains retain their individuality, while at the same time being elevated to trans-human gods ruling over an entire country.

If anything, this is the ultimate embodiment of corruption and self serving interest. Think about it. The Sybil brains are willing to use lethal force to kill people who are threatening the brains...but they aren't even willing to let Akane stun Makishima when he's about to kill her friend? How is this ANYTHING but self serving corruption?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I wouldn't be surprised if the country ended up being like North Korea in that the rest of the world is just fine behind the fence, and that the Sibyl system is actually using its absolute control to stop the population from leaving.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I wouldn't be surprised if the country ended up being like North Korea in that the rest of the world is just fine behind the fence, and that the Sibyl system is actually using its absolute control to stop the population from leaving.

This.

Sybil Japan just doesn't seem like a country that can exist with significant contact with the outside world. I'm sure it can paint a pretty picture of it superficially...but I don't think it could allow foreign people to legally visit the country too often. Not when that could involve contamination of foreign ideas, and some tourist getting judged for being a psycho. This isn't a country anyone would wanna go to.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Isn't that pretty much what happened?

The computer or rather the minds that make up it's consciousness took over after the gave it more room to grow then needed?

I don't see how exactly that's the case. The system was build this way from the start so brains were intended to manipulate everything.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

How do we know that for sure? After all it was stated they could remove Makishima's brain by force if they had to (Destroy His Body and Take His Brain) so obviously they've could've done this to plenty of non-violent sociopaths who've been detected.

And how would you detect a non-criminal sociopath? They would simply appear to be stable and normal humans.

Also if you remove the free will how would they be able to calculate and handle problem solving and who better to handle the hard chooses then the individuals who don't feel remorse for their actions...I like most of our politicians.

From what we've seen, by boiling crime down to a simple number they're not actually doing anything that requires free will or higher thinking.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valient

It really doesn't matter which government branch is responsible. The main issue is what to do about it.

Not when they can simply keep the system going, or restore it upon its destruction. We keep hearing about the Ministry of Welfare, and it's implied that they're the creators and caretakers, yet we haven't seen them in the show yet.

The population is practically glued together socially by faith in Sibyl. Even though it is best to dismantle it ASAP, by a grenade if it comes to it, there is a serious question of the aftermath.

How do you recreate an entire country's laws from scratch? And to suddenly re-educate everyone? How do you teach self-control when people are used to have their actions determined by what they assumed to be an omnipotent being?

How to prevent the worst case scenario of anarchy?

It might be best to shut down Sibyl but pretend it didn't happen. The population is too stupid to notice the change unless you tell them. The advantage of a faith based Theocracy is that you can change the one in charge and the peons won't even notice. Unplug the psycho brains, have normal humans make decisions, and slowly create a new system of government over time. It would be a dictatorship in the beginning, but that's not any different from what they have right now.

While compelling questions, with 5 episodes left, that's way beyond the scope of what can be fit in.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

From what we've seen, by boiling crime down to a simple number they're not actually doing anything that requires free will or higher thinking.

The way the Sybil brain described the way it worked DID kinda suggest that you need a bit more than just number crunching in order to get the kind of reading capability the Sybil system is capable of.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

The way the Sybil brain described the way it worked DID kinda suggest that you need a bit more than just number crunching in order to get the kind of reading capability the Sybil system is capable of.

And yet when Makishima was holding the knife to Yuki's throat, it didn't even unlock Paralyzer mode (and doing so would have allowed them to capture and integrate him immediately!). Or when the first helmet guy was bashing on the woman with a hammer, in full view of a camera and a drone, did not realize a crime was happening. Based on what I'm seeing, the Sibyl System uses the knowledge of its brains, but not autonomous thinking except in the case of trying to benefit itself.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

And yet when Makishima was holding the knife to Yuki's throat, it didn't even unlock Paralyzer mode (and doing so would have allowed them to capture and integrate him immediately!). Or when the first helmet guy was bashing on the woman with a hammer, in full view of a camera and a drone, did not realize a crime was happening. Based on what I'm seeing, the Sibyl System uses the knowledge of its brains, but not autonomous thinking except in the case of trying to benefit itself.

It could just be that the brain in charge was lazy that day.

Keep in mind that after the revelation, we no longer have any reason to believe Sibyl works AT ALL. It is just as likely that people assumed there is no crime because that's what they believed in, and that actual crimes are ignored because they assume it is impossible. Once the very nature of Sibyl was revealed to be false, we have no more reason to believe anything else about it. One lie leads to another.

[Kirarakim]

I know we are using psychopath & sociopath interchangeably and that isn't necessarily incorrect but I think in this case we should distinguish between the two:

I think this website has a good break down between the two terms

http://depressiond.com/sociopath-vs-...ity-disorders/

I definitely think Urobuchi is trying to say these character are psychopaths not just sociopaths (hence the title) and this includes Makishima.

I don't believe Makishima has empathy or shows concern about anyone. Although he might show interest that isn't the same as empathy.

Makishima also has the classic trait of being able to charm and to act normal in society, and to act in complete control.

Also the fact that you might be unable to hurt those you care about would make a sociopath (unlike a psychopath) not work for the system.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It could just be that the brain in charge was lazy that day.

Keep in mind that after the revelation, we no longer have any reason to believe Sibyl works AT ALL. It is just as likely that people assumed there is no crime because that's what they believed in, and that actual crimes are ignored because they assume it is impossible. Once the very nature of Sibyl was revealed to be false, we have no more reason to believe anything else about it. One lie leads to another.

That's rather dubious. The numbers aren't entirely made up and have definite consistencies and patterns on an individual level at least, otherwise somebody would have called out bullshit much earlier. Yet for a system that seems to do its best to perpetuate its own image of infallibility, it's actually done a piss poor job at even that. Unless, of course it turns out that at least one brain is unhappy to be hooked up, and feeding out false results is its way of trying to get somebody to notice.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

And yet when Makishima was holding the knife to Yuki's throat, it didn't even unlock Paralyzer mode (and doing so would have allowed them to capture and integrate him immediately!). Or when the first helmet guy was bashing on the woman with a hammer, in full view of a camera and a drone, did not realize a crime was happening. Based on what I'm seeing, the Sibyl System uses the knowledge of its brains, but not autonomous thinking except in the case of trying to benefit itself.

maybe you're going by the assumption the psycho-pass cameras/detectors give to the brains a real time video of what is happening
i don't think that's the case, the brains just get the psycho-pass wave, and they just read that
imagine you being blinded and trying to judge a food only by its taste, that's how i imagine the brains managing the psycho-passes readings, only just a bit boosted by pumping all those lot of infos in their brains super fast
when they didn't manage to give a correct read was because they didn't knew that taste(for makishima), or because someone was giving them the taste of an other food(the helmets)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

That's rather dubious. The numbers aren't entirely made up and have definite consistencies and patterns on an individual level at least, otherwise somebody would have called out bullshit much earlier. Yet for a system that seems to do its best to perpetuate its own image of infallibility, it's actually done a piss poor job at even that. Unless, of course it turns out that at least one brain is unhappy to be hooked up, and feeding out false results is its way of trying to get somebody to notice.

Calling out bullshit doesn't work if you disappear soon afterwards. The beauty of a police state. Even better, people would assume you committed a thought-crime and technically, you DID. Thus other people would not care that you are vaporised.

Remember, I described this as a Theocracy. When people see a flaw in something infallible, they just assume "the Sibyl system works in mysterious ways."

[Triple_R]

The Director (i.e. one of the brains) said that Japan is the only country ruled by law, but we also learned that Japan has no judiciary system. So, at least in my mind, this seems at least a bit contradictory. But in the 200+ minds that make up Sibyl, "rule by law" might just be a very spinning, spinning way to say "Japan is the only country where the law is absolute... and can't be corrupted by a clever lawyer or silly technicalities".

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by zeando

maybe you're going by the assumption the psycho-pass cameras/detectors give to the brains a real time video of what is happening

The dominators at least are capable of identifying targets by name. That would imply facial recognition capability, and hence visual cameras, unless the designers decided to reduce the efficiency of their system by making the brains recognize people by their brainwaves, physiology, or however the scanner part works.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Calling out bullshit doesn't work if you disappear soon afterwards. The beauty of a police state. Even better, people would assume you committed a thought-crime and technically, you DID. Thus other people would not care that you are vaporised.

Remember, I described this as a Theocracy. When people see a flaw in something infallible, they just assume "the Sibyl system works in mysterious ways."

We don't see that in the show though, and their control of information on the internet doesn't seem high at all.

[Dengar]

Watched the episode, I did, here are my findings.

Drones are stupid

While my standpoint from two episodes ago remains the same considering the knowledge I had back then, I'll now choose to abandon the discussion because my arguments didn't account for the existence of a massive computer system operated by hundreds of (living and conscious) human brains. For now I'll just keep it at "it didn't occur to any of those 250 personalities", which is so dang unlikely I don't expect anyone else to accept it unless they think the same way I do. This also leads me to...

Piss poor defenses from invasion

Uhhh yeah, while I kind of understand your point, my way of thinking is just different. I'm thinking no one really has any particular reason to attack Japan in the first place, so I don't really think about it that much. Sorry for thinking differently.

Sibyl's poor security

Poor judgment is human nature. I can hear some of you thinking "that's the best you can come up with?", but from a narrative point of view, this work is clearly trying to bring us a message. I believe that Makishima is actually kind of an author insert. Except with added murderous tendencies.

Makishima is awesome now!

It's ok to cheer for him (only in this case), but try not to forget that he is, in fact, a horrible person, and needs to be dealt with.

[felix]

Where are the bolded parts from Dengar?

[zeando]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

The dominators at least are capable of identifying targets by name. That would imply facial recognition capability, and hence visual cameras, unless the designers decided to reduce the efficiency of their system by making the brains recognize people by their brainwaves, physiology, or however the scanner part works.

well, i agree, having a video option for the cases where it's not clear from the "brainwaves, physiology, or however the scanner part works" alone could have helped to narrow down the obviously incorrect first readings
unless it was avaliable and the brains just didn't see nothing odd with it(they're lacking empathy anyway), or like you're saying they noticed it but were just jerks in letting it pass
but that wouldn't make much sense(them being just jerks), since it did lead to them having to deal with riots and people trying to get near them phisically, putting their safety and public image at risk, all this only for being a jerk for fun?
i'm leaning more on the dumb/error option than the jerk one
ah sorry, maybe i just misunderstood you before, if so my error :P