[PC/PS3/360/WiiU] Mass Effect 3

[bones]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Nobody ever said indoctrination required constant close-range exposure, but let's count:

ME1: Shepard was rather close to sovereign during the final battle.
ME2: Shepard spend quite a long time in the collector ship, the collector base, a dead reaper and was exposed to Object Rho for two days straight.
ME3: Lots of reaper-tech salvaging and close encounters with reapers throughout the entire game.

True, it hasn't been stated outright but all the previous cases of indoctrination were after constant close range exposure like Saren, Matriarch Benenzia and the Cerberus scientists who investigated the derelict Reaper. I'm not sure how long it takes for indoctrination to kick in but I don't think that two days is enough time

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Drake

Spoiler for spoilers:

The thing is its pretty well established that the more indoctrinated you are the less "capable" you become and kai leng seemed very capable so it isn't really feasible that he was more heavily indoctrinated but instead just following the illusive mans orders.

Theres nothing to suggest that the VI could measure the "level" of indoctrination it simply pointed out if a person was or wasn't indoctrinated and since it didn't detect that Shepard was at two different points in the game (the second being in cerberus HQ right before the final assault on earth) its a safe bet Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.

I can see why a lot of people would want to accept the indoctrination theory but for me it just makes as little sense as the existing endings.

What about the fact that some of the Protheans were indoctrinated? It at least shows that the VI is not full proof.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by bones

True, it hasn't been stated outright but all the previous cases of indoctrination were after constant close range exposure like Saren, Matriarch Benenzia and the Cerberus scientists who investigated the derelict Reaper. I'm not sure how long it takes for indoctrination to kick in but I don't think that two days is enough time

Exactly. It hasn't been stated outright. That hole in our knowledge is enough to make the indoctrination theory itself viable. If Bioware says "you don't need constant exposure, you just need to get close to a reaper once for them to start the process" then we're game.

Point in case to support the theory, the illusive man. His indoctrination was started far before the events of ME2 after coming into contact with an object Rho-like artifact for a few minutes, half an hour tops. It's that event that gave him his eyes.

[bones]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Exactly. It hasn't been stated outright. That hole in our knowledge is enough to make the indoctrination theory itself viable. If Bioware says "you don't need constant exposure, you just need to get close to a reaper once for them to start the process" then we're game.

Hmm, seems like a last minute thing to me if Bioware does that but whatever works I guess.

[Drake]

What about the fact that some of the Protheans were indoctrinated? It at least shows that the VI is not full proof.

What about it ?

The prothean empire encompassed many other spacefaring species so in any realistic scenario you can hardly expect the protheans to veto EVERY single one of them with a VI while fighting a centery long war of attrition besides that it if you want to make assumptions its not a stretch to assume that the tech to detect indoctrination was developed late in the cycle and incorporated into the beacons as some kind of last ditch fail safe.

What is established in game is that the VI could tell Kai Leng was indoctrinated meaning it was capable of detecting indoctrination and yet it didn't detect Shepard as being indoctrinated which makes it pretty clear that he/she wasn't.

Regarding the actual indoctrination process itself it WAS stated in ME1 by an asari scientist on Virmire that indoctrination takes a fair period of time usually "several days to a week" of exposure to sovereigns signal to physiologically break a person with "subtle whispers you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why" while it doesn't mention how close specifically if you look at points in the game where people have been indoctrinated such as the derelict reaper or the arrival asteroid base it took a good deal of time in close proximity to reaper tech before the people became indoctrinated.

For example the Cerberus scientists on the derelict had the time to set up an outpost/base throughout the internal structure and then study the reaper and dragon teeth before contact was lost and in Arrival the people who found out about the alpha relay through the reaper beacon had enough time to formulate a plan, acquire assets and build a base and giant engines on an asteroid before finally being turned right before they where about to see their plan through.

Besides the two day that Shepard was unconscious during the arrival he/she was never in proximity to reaper tech for any prolonged period of time.

The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.

[erneiz_hyde]

Have you watched the youtube videos regarding this theory?

Like I said, I'm tired of hating the ending. Though imperfect, the Indoctrination theory is still a better construct than what we get at face value at the end, because if you weigh it, there is more proof for the theory than against it. This way, I can focus my energy elsewhere instead of spewing out hate words in the internet. Unless of course, you want to hate. Because if somehow the theory came to make better sense than what you watched in the ending, you can't hate anymore.

The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.

And why is that so bad? First of all, if one is complaining about plot holes and inconsistency, why use information coming from the same source to deny a fan-made interpretation? Sure, they're selectively ignoring things, but they do so to be able to sleep better at night. Imo it's better than to selectively ignore things so you can remain hating it.

[grylsyjaeger]

Finished ME3 last night.

After 110 hours combined with that character, making decisions all along the way that I thought would hold repercussions along the entire game, it came to a close of "choose one of three endings" whcih are actually the same, they just change the colour overlay of the characters...

Seriously?

I can put up with the bat shit and insane endings as in they doesn't make a lick of sense but three choices were all I got?

I would have preferred the ending to have been pre-chosen based on my actions to that point. Give me some reason to want to replay the game. Not just get booted back to the mission before the final confrontation with a plain as day promise of inbound DLC...

[synaesthetic]

I'm tired of hating the ending, too, but I agree that the indoctrination theory is stupid. It's not as stupid as the ending taken at face value, though.

Like that earlier video said, really, everything was fine up until the blue god kid showed up. Cut that douchenozzle out of the game and rework the final moments and we could have something suitable for Mass Effect.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Drake

What about it ?

The prothean empire encompassed many other spacefaring species so in any realistic scenario you can hardly expect the protheans to veto EVERY single one of them with a VI while fighting a centery long war of attrition besides that it if you want to make assumptions its not a stretch to assume that the tech to detect indoctrination was developed late in the cycle and incorporated into the beacons as some kind of last ditch fail safe.

What is established in game is that the VI could tell Kai Leng was indoctrinated meaning it was capable of detecting indoctrination and yet it didn't detect Shepard as being indoctrinated which makes it pretty clear that he/she wasn't.

Regarding the actual indoctrination process itself it WAS stated in ME1 by an asari scientist on Virmire that indoctrination takes a fair period of time usually "several days to a week" of exposure to sovereigns signal to physiologically break a person with "subtle whispers you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why" while it doesn't mention how close specifically if you look at points in the game where people have been indoctrinated such as the derelict reaper or the arrival asteroid base it took a good deal of time in close proximity to reaper tech before the people became indoctrinated.

For example the Cerberus scientists on the derelict had the time to set up an outpost/base throughout the internal structure and then study the reaper and dragon teeth before contact was lost and in Arrival the people who found out about the alpha relay through the reaper beacon had enough time to formulate a plan, acquire assets and build a base and giant engines on an asteroid before finally being turned right before they where about to see their plan through.

Besides the two day that Shepard was unconscious during the arrival he/she was never in proximity to reaper tech for any prolonged period of time.

The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.

My point was that there could be a potential reason why the VI could not detect Shepard's possible indoctrination.

And we really don't know the details of full detail on indoctrination so there are some rooms in the possible explanation.

Personally I think indoctrination is wrong and there is noway that Bioware thought this much. But there is one detail that makes me question it, the fact that Anderson was shot and the gun wound is on Shepard instead of Anderson. That one incident makes me wonder if there is really more to the ending than we think. I would just be happy if Bioware decides to redo the entire Earth mission.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

there is noway that Bioware thought this much.

Personally, this alone is enough to doubt the theory, lol.

Bioware has made inexplicable plot holes and inconsistencies before, like in Dragon Age.

[bones]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

My point was that there could be a potential reason why the VI could not detect Shepard's possible indoctrination.

And we really don't know the details of full detail on indoctrination so there are some rooms in the possible explanation.

Personally I think indoctrination is wrong and there is noway that Bioware thought this much. But there is one detail that makes me question it, the fact that Anderson was shot and the gun wound is on Shepard instead of Anderson. That one incident makes me wonder if there is really more to the ending than we think. I would just be happy if Bioware decides to redo the entire Earth mission.

Uhh no he was shot by one of those Reaper turned turian things on the way to the beam of light that transported him to the Citadel.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Personally, this alone is enough to doubt the theory, lol.

Bioware has made inexplicable plot holes and inconsistencies before, like in Dragon Age.

Huh really? I can't remember a particular plot hole from Dragon Age.

Originally Posted by bones

Uhh no he was shot by one of those Reaper turned turian things on the way to the beam of light that transported him to the Citadel.

She was not shot in the stomach area though, instead Marauder or Marauder Shields, which is what most people like to call it at this point, got her in the shoulder.

[Alchemist007]

ed: ninja'd. Here's a comic

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

ed: ninja'd. Here's a comic

Lol Kai Leng. The only time I was happy to do a renegade interrupt with a paragon Shepard was when I killed him.

[MeisterBabylon]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Producer, assemble your team.

Spoiler for Team:

*RUUUUUUUUUNS*

Spoiler for Delusionary Selection:

Haruka - Vanguard - Team buffs
Iori - Adept - Tsun Powers

...

...darn don't tell me Eri Mizutani is on DLC?! I HATE YOU BIOWARE!

Emperor forbid, my delusion ended up mirroring real life.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Huh really? I can't remember a particular plot hole from Dragon Age.

Spoiler for spoilers of Dragon Age 2 ending...:

They're talking about DA2, but it doesn't actually have plot holes, it was just a narrative decision. You can't stop what's coming, no matter what you do--the civil war between the mages and the Chantry has been brewing for centuries. Anders' actions at the end of the game were just the spark that set the kindling alight.

Not being able to stop it and ride off into the sunset isn't a plot hole... it's intentional.

The problem with DA2 is that people were fooled by DAO, which is not dark fantasy, but essentially a Lord of the Rings rehash. When they were introduced to the far grimmer Kirkwall setting, where your choices didn't really impact very much at all, despite how powerful Hawke became... in a way, DA2's story and characters are closer to reality and not fantasy ideals, so they felt less epic and less heroic. DA2's overall tone suggests that this is "working as intended."

[Alchemist007]

This one just wishes that it was just Mass Effect and not Mass inEffective.

[erneiz_hyde]

Let's admit that I didn't really notice this myself nor did I care to check, but there was some talk about DAO Awakening couldn't have been canon because of a timeline discrepancy. Which could've been avoided by making the time gap after Hawke's arrival in Kirkwall longer than, 2 years was it? But enough of that for now, it's oot.

On the topic of ME. How does one be a good Vanguard? How do you use the biotic charge? I seem to die everytime I use it. I always play as an Infiltrator or Sentinel and recenly Adept. Btw, has the biotic combos always present? I don't recall using them in ME2.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

On the topic of ME. How does one be a good Vanguard? How do you use the biotic charge? I seem to die everytime I use it. I always play as an Infiltrator or Sentinel and recenly Adept. Btw, has the biotic combos always present? I don't recall using them in ME2.

1. Being a Vanguard in ME3 involves always being alert and aware of your surroundings along with enemy positions - you always need to keep in mind where enemies are so you can charge them when needed. Vanguards are like sharks: you can't stop moving. Biotic Charge replenishes shields when used, and thus if your shields drop your only recourse is to... well, charge. Basically, charging is the only way you survive, and thus you need to make sure you can use Charge as often as possible, which means keeping your power recharge meter above +170%.

There will be situations when charging would be suicidal, like in the presence of Sentry Turrets, in which case using your weapons and other abilities like Shockwave and Pull would be prudent. But for the most part, Charge + Nova combo should own the battlefield if you're quick on your feet and adaptable. I clear out levels with my Vanguard faster than I could with a Soldier or Infiltrator.

2. Biotic Explosions were present in ME2, but you could only perform them by using Pull, Shockwave, Reave or Lift on someone, then using Warp to detonate. ME3 allows you to make Biotic Explosions using a larger variety of abilities and combos.

Here's a good list on which powers setup and detonate Biotic Explosions in ME3, along with Tech combos:

ME3 Wikia: Power Combos

[grylsyjaeger]

I played Soldier.

Just keep pouring it on them, they'll go down eventually.