2010-10-07, 13:34 | Link #17901 |
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Well at least Ryukishi seems to be aiming or what I hoped he would do.
That sounds really intriguing. To get away from that topic for a short moment, because it popped into my head while continuing to read the manga adaption (because I have just no time to reread the VN right now) and it just won't go away. Was it ever actually discussed around here, what the "magic to kill mama" is, that Beato agreed to teach Maria after Sakutarô was 'killed'? It's interesting how Maria seems to know for sure that the door to the Golden Land was to open that night and in the arc where she dies early on, we see Eva escaping death... I'm not saying Maria commited any murders, but would it be so hard to believe that she pushed a switch? If it was actually her who activated the mechanism, it could explain why 'Yasu' did not act on it. I agree (before it's even voiced) that it's difficult because it is hard to prove the existence of a destructive mechanism in the first 4 games, that could be activated by a child. And I'm also still missing why Battler's return should push Maria into activating the switch or make somebody unable to prevent Maria from doing so... Still it's bugging me, because that "magic" stands out between the rest of them which are quite easy to explain...
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2010-10-07, 15:44 | Link #17902 |
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It's also seemingly out of character for "Beatrice" as we've been led to know her to even teach such "black magic" to Maria. The perception we've been given of the individual behind Beatrice is a person who is something of a prankster, definitely the sort to teach Maria all the good and innocent things Beatrice is credited with showing her, yet strangely absent is a good motive for her to even know about the darker side of magic to be able to instruct Maria in its use.
And even then, we only ever appear to see Maria employ such "magic" in her own imagination. It appears, on a surface-level reading, like Beatrice taught Maria a coping mechanism to deal with stress through indulging her hate. But why would Beatrice know this in the first place...?
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2010-10-07, 18:27 | Link #17903 | |
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2010-10-07, 18:45 | Link #17904 | |
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Someone else mentioned once that maybe the title "Endless" refers to one who can imagine things infinitely, right? Well, maybe that "magic" is simply using one's own imagination to take your anger out on the person you hold the grudge against mentally. |
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2010-10-07, 19:40 | Link #17905 | |
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Rather than _The Burning Court_, this is increasingly reminding me of a scenario described in a different book.
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2010-10-07, 20:15 | Link #17907 | |
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Granted, Maria could've extrapolated that on her own from the lesson "imagine something bad happening to the people who anger you." She is a witch without peer.
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2010-10-07, 22:38 | Link #17908 | |
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After all, Umineko itself could be seen as an interpretation of what Carr called "the greatest game in the world" or something of the sort. The Burning Court is probably what influenced Umineko the most, though I think that The Hollow Man and its speeches about locked rooms had some influence as well. Which reminds me, am I the only one who thinks that the red text is somewhat like the way certain clues are handled in Ellery Queen novels? |
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2010-10-07, 22:48 | Link #17909 | |
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I can easily see the colored text being like that. Imagine for instance that you found a manuscript entitled Turn of the Golden Witch which contained, in part, text written in red ink, and a footnote instruction that you should treat all text in red as true. Such a classic mystery could easily exist (and I'm sure plenty in that basic vein do exist).
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2010-10-08, 12:06 | Link #17911 | |
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By the way, if any mention of red truth had been in the original manuscripts, it's odd that we were never shown anyone approaching them as mystery fiction. It ought to scream "solve this if you can" to anybody, so that even an occult maniac would realize that it wasn't a direct account of the incident. So that's probably a good indicator that there was no meta narrative in the bottle stories.
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2010-10-08, 13:00 | Link #17912 |
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I don't remember _The Crooked Hinge_ that well, but Carr had used red text equivalent as early as _It Walks By Night_. (At one early point, detective Bencolin says something about how the doors were watched and the window was impassible and ..., yet somehow the killer has decapitated a victim in there. It is then followed by the narrator mentioning "And as later events were to prove, Bencolin spoke the absolute truth.".)
_The Nine Wrong Answers_ had the footnote gimmick, but it was largely in response to typical mystery quick answers: "No, there wasn't a conspiracy to have Bill Dawson overhear this conversation. It was a coincidence." "No, character ____ did not commit suicide." _The Reader is Warned_ had a footnote gimmick similar to _The Nine Wrong Answers_. _The Three Coffins_ aka _The Hollow Man_ has a device similar to the red text; early on it mentions that several witnesses are being absolutely sincere in their testimony, describing things exactly as they saw it. It also has the famous "Locked Room Lecture", which discussed conventions of locked-room mysteries.
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2010-10-08, 13:32 | Link #17914 | |
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2010-10-08, 16:02 | Link #17915 | |
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2010-10-08, 16:50 | Link #17916 | |
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Viewed in that light, Legend is technically solvable. Whether or not that answer is right, or even if it's "the truth of Rokkenjima," it still fits the criteria for a mystery story. It could be the basis in "historical fact" that threw the Witch Hunters off. Still...
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2010-10-08, 17:40 | Link #17917 | ||
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For example, Carr was a fan of the unshakable evidence, while Christie preferred to focus on the motive. Carr was the master of locked rooms, but Christie was the master of misdirection. She pushed her solutions towards the limits of the genre, and tried to lure the reader into a false sense of security. Spoiler for A few Christie novels:
So...Umineko doesn't satisfy the mystery rules because it can't provide the certainty other novels provide. It's fine to provide uncertainty if it provides enough information on the why, but otherwise, it must have certainty as to the who and the how. Umineko does none of it. Also, would it be okay for me to post the locked room lecture here so we can discuss it? I have an ebook of The Three Coffins and I think it would be interesting to relate Carr to Ryuukishi, as, let's be frank, Ryuukishi is basically Carr on serious drugs. |
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2010-10-08, 19:12 | Link #17919 |
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I posted an abbreviated version of the Locked Room Lecture a while back.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...42#post2797842 I don't think Ryu is anywhere near Carr as far as locked rooms go; too many of the mysteries is Umineko are based on the absence of duplicate keys. (On the other hand, this is likely deliberate; as Wright mentioned, solving one Carr-quality mystery would likely tie down a good deal of Umineko.)
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2010-10-08, 19:40 | Link #17920 | |
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