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Korinov · 2012-01-02, 20:58

I have the feeling you guys are putting too much effort into a debate twisted from the very start

I actually find it impossible to say if Cassandra is strong/weak/skilled/unskilled/whatever just from that particular scene. I find it so poorly written and drawn that it's just silly to try to create arguments based on what Yagi shows us there. There doesn't seem to exist a significative distance between Cassandra and Roxanne when the first one throws the head and makes her accusations (at least, not enough for a #1 to not cover it in the blink of an eye). Then Cassandra has to fight her way through dozens of warriors like if she charged from the beginning of a corridor and Roxanne were standing at the very end, with all the other warriors in the middle.

And even in such a scenario, Cassandra should have been able to just bypass all those warriors merely by speed. And anyway... how many people were in that room? Because you get the impression Cassandra cuts quite a number of girls in her way to Roxanne, yet when she's taken down a whole bunch of warriors are shown to be pretty close to her, and seemingly without having taken a scratch. Did the MiB summon all the 47 warriors there?

The idea of "killed after slaughtering tons of comrades in an act of revenge" may have sounded pretty cool when Yagi thought about it for the first time, but the execution on paper was quite dissapointing.

Double_friedman · 2012-01-02, 21:25

Right Korinov. But Cass was not able to land even a hit on Roxane. However, she only had her speed, which was the same from the very beginning. Even if one hit at full power with all its limbs had crushed Roxxanne, Cass' speed remained the same, which means that Roxanne could have used the Blade Evil at the very beginning.

Maybe the blade of evil was a strong technique enough to stop a completely healthy Cass. We don't know that. Or maybe a completely healthy Cass would have been momentarily stopped and Roxanne would have just finished her off, or move backwards again.

Gooral · 2012-01-03, 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

(...) I still think her human form DE is flawed but not in the same way Gooral mentions. If the character just jumps out of the way, that means the DE is working. They aren't attacking her, and they will not win. At best, if a character runs away then Cassandra will always force a draw. (...)

You missed my point. I didn't mean "running away" by "taking a step back", I meant doing a dodgy move and then going into offensive. Such person could much easier switch from defence to offence than Cassandra who would be going in a certain direction because of a centrifugal force. That's a HUGE flaw of this technique and a lethal weak point. Of course most of the time it wouldn't matter because of the surprise factor and because most opponents of Cassandra would be slower. But against Roxanne it wasn't enough. Not to mention that in every cycle her legs would be very vulnerable to attacks since they would be the closest to opponent's while her sword would be almost a length of her body away. So her opponent could strike her at a safe distance while she wouldn't have the range to do the same unless she could stretch her arms like Helen. Her attack worked on RNA (Rache, Nina, Audrey) only because she was too fast for them. But against someone as fast as her she wouldn't stand a chance, at least in theory. I'm well aware it's manga and even if something doesn't make sense Yagi can tell us that it does and his word is final.

Spoiler for pictures:

@Korinov
I think you're right which I've mentioned in my previous posts. Still it's fun to debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral

(...)
But the best argument is Korinov's, as he pointed out Roxanne could disappear from Cassandra in a blink of an eye while other Claymores managed to surround her in a blink of an eye. That's the biggest proof that this scene was poorly drawn and written and in the end can't be used as a measure of Roxanne's or Cassie's strength. If it was used it would make Cassandra a weakling compared to Roxanne. (...)

The one thing that could explain how Roxanne managed to go out of Cassie's reach and that other Claymores managed to surround her was the thing I've mentioned in my earlier post, i.e. that Cassy needed quite a lot of time to use this technique. RNA stood there like fools, gaping and waiting until Cassy was ready to attack instead of going at her all at once when they've had a chance.

Spoiler for proof:

haegar · 2012-01-03, 09:02

Spoiler for just ma 5 cents of OT, BUT:

SpiritOfGray · 2012-01-03, 09:15

I think I'm looking at the technique a bit differently. I originally thought of it somewhat similar and thought it was pathetically weak. But even in the pictures you posted I'm seeing evidence that there may be more to it. First, lets assume the surprise factor is gone. I think merely dodging and coming back in will require more speed and skill than Cassandra herself, or a technique like quick sword. She mentions moving toward Roxanne in DE. In the first picture, her opponent that was aiming at going through her is completely to the right of her, including her legs. I find that odd because with the way the technique is described, Cassandra shouldn't be able to move her legs out of the way, and if she didn't, that means he opponent clearly can't aim. This makes me think that she has more control of her positioning in that half sphere she is existing in during the move, including the ability to change the position of the sphere by moving it. She may have missed an opponent, and they may come back in an instant later, but she could have the ability to change her angle, and her center point mid-Dust Eater, and counter the counter attack. It may be stretching the impossible to even more impossible, but I honestly can't think of how a simple surprise technique could make her one of Dae's most perfect creations.

And about the movement of her feet during it. I could see it working in a type of pivoting motion. Changing the center of balance from one foot to the other. This could explain why when she had one leg chopped off, Roxanne was able to easily kill her with BoE. Despite maintaining the same speed, Cassandra could no longer change the position of her half- sphere, which severely ruined her Dust Eater's evasion.

While her Awakened form is only based off of her original Dust Eater, and not proven to be exactly the same, it inspires me to think this way. I thought it was some stationary object, only good at attacking in 1 big sphere. When we she it evading for a short period, it is all over the place. Putting such mastery into a technique and having whatever it takes to survive for hours after being chopped to pieces, I can see why Cassandra would have been one of Dae's favorites.

Gooral · 2012-01-03, 09:41

@haegar
Like all discussions about cartoon characters and cartoon physics. That doesn't stop you from discussing it, does it?

@SpiritOfGray
That's the thing, if Cassandra could do what you say then it would mean she was super strong, nimble and fast (since changing her position during DE would require going against immense forces and a superb sense of balance) but then why would she even need DE technique and not just use her assets the normal way? I think the right conclusion in all this is that Yagi didn't think this technique over, as it was with Anastasia's technique or Miria's mirages (and by that I mean, why are they even created? Also the fact that Miria could do her mirage in the air as we could see in one of the last pages of ch. 106, or on an icy surface as seen when she fought Clare). And the scene where she was killed was just poorly written and drawn. It was supposed to be original and cool and I think he succeeded at that. He didn't take into account there would be geeks analyzing it (or just didn't care since it's shounen manga)

.

haegar · 2012-01-03, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral

@haegar
Like all discussions about cartoon characters and cartoon physics. That doesn't stop you from discussing it, does it?

Spoiler for OT:

Awakened · 2012-01-03, 13:05

I think Cassandra uses her head to control her center of gravity. She move her head really fast, this allows her to move in any direction she wants at any time. She does not spin in a circle around her legs.

Edit:
You could think of Cassandra's head as a helicopter rotor.

SpiritOfGray · 2012-01-03, 14:11

Yea, I'm thinking we can all agree on the fact that it's definitely not crystal clear at this point from what we've been shown. I could agree with nearly anyone's interpretation so far, but that isn't stopping me from making my own.

I don't post often, so discussing something from a few chapters ago (especially after it was discussed there) is not the impression I want to leave lol.

so ch. 122...

I'm pretty sure I said that I gave it a 6, even though I'm liking the helpless feelings of the ghosts in it. Ch. 122 was nothing more than a set up. But, I felt it wasn't setting up what I wanted to see. Having Miria be healed, analyzing from the sidelines, and calling things out is only making me feel that Miria will cause Hysteria's defeat. We weren't shown the other abyssals fighting, which is something that is a must see after this build up, and it just gave me the feeling that Yagi may cheap out again. But luckily it was a short chapter, and that can be used as an excuse.

Other than that, does anyone feel the blob could already be releasing it's members? No one is being disturbed by the Roxy vs Cassandra fight, so it's not like some giant power ups are going on. In fact, the closest thing happened last chapter when Roxy and Hysty awakened. If that didn't disturb the blob, then idk what will at this point.

haegar · 2012-01-03, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

If that didn't disturb the blob, then idk what will at this point.

I hope it won't be Raki

SpiritOfGray · 2012-01-03, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by haegar

I hope it won't be Raki

If it were, his use of the Dust Eater would have already done it.

Spoiler for jk:

Awakened · 2012-01-03, 14:38

Next chapter Miria will Half-Awaken, like Clare in Pita. She has no choice.

irvinethearcher · 2012-01-03, 15:13

Just some fast thoughts on it...
I am with malak, cassandra simply ignored her comrades going straight after roxanne.
It is most impressive that her technique even worked when several limbs were cut off.
I hope we will get to see that too in the soon comming clash.

Sorry, but i have not much time on my hands right now. I hopefully getting at least the chapter 116 finished at which i have worked for so long.

I have read MisterJBs post and know now what gooral wants to say but still another way we could see things is:
Why cassandra had to wound them anyway? Well in order to get to roxanne she had to use her dirty technique because without it, she is weak as a number 5. Perhaps it was easier for cassy to avoid her comrades swords than avoid to cut them with her dust eater? I mean she is trained to avoid being cut but avoiding to cut others she never had trained at all because she used it only against awakened beings so far...
So she didn't avoid their swords as sort of redemption?
I mean malak is right...
She is damn good at dodging, we can see that clearly when she fights roxanne as an AB.

haegar · 2012-01-03, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

If it were, his use of the Dust Eater would have already done it.

Spoiler for jk:

that HAS to be the sword of evil

Friday · 2012-01-03, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

If that didn't disturb the blob, then idk what will at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haegar

I hope it won't be Raki

I did mention this earlier regarding the blob & Raki......

my 2 cents....

a) something happens to Raki like wounded and draws out Clare & Priscilla

b) after the Claymore Rebellion they take him to the blob and calls for Clare to come out of it.

thats how I see it.

su5so · 2012-01-04, 12:57

Do you think Histerya is faster than Alice?
She really looks fast, but I think Alice might have easily done the same and even killing some claymores in her initial attack.

I mean you do not need to be very quick to do the same Hysteria. Any abysmal should have enough speed to do the same, I think.

Gooral · 2012-01-04, 15:26

Probably she's the fastest thing besides Clare in Claymoreverse (not counting Teresa), so I doubt Alicia is as fast. But so far Hysteria hasn't shown that much, in fact she's a bit disappointing for an AO. She's of Alicia size but doesn't seem to have such destructive power as Isley/Riful/Luciella/Alicia, although it might just be that she has shown only a fraction of her power (I hope so). For now she looks the weakest of the three, Roxanne and Cassandra inspire respect with their size at least. Hysteria on the other hand seems to be in Rigaldo's league, only looks less impressive (even though she's faster). Then again, looks can be deceiving, Priscilla looked like a weakling also. But so far, she didn't do much damage and she still hasn't got rid of that stupid sword in her throat. I really, really, REALLY hope that Yagi won't use it to kill her because that would be too obvious and stupid at the same time. Please, please, let it not be a crude plot device that would make Hysteria a complete retard, it's bad as it is already.

White Silver King · 2012-01-04, 15:38

I think her destructive power is fine, she just hasn't used it that much. She blew off a portion of 2 warriors bodies before they even saw her move. Had one of Riful's tentacles done that it would have just stabbed them which they can quickly recover from, whereas with this everyone besides Deneve is fucked if they get hit with that. Plus, her speed is completely overwhelming everyone even Miria wouldn't be able to anything against her.

As for people complaining about Deneve regenerating the head-shot, it didn't hit her brain (but it was close) so of course she can regenerate the damage.

Gooral · 2012-01-04, 15:45

I disagree. Compare the scene where Hysteria's attack is easily blocked by Deneve and when Riful destroys easily the castle which even Duff's attacks weren't strong enough to collapse. Or the time when Clare was saying that if Riful finds her she would be cut to shreds in seconds. And I doubt you would say that Deneve is in Clare's league (it's obvious she isn't, heck, even Miria is of no match to Clare). Also Riful was really, really fast when she wanted to be (when she disappeared in a blink of an eye from Jean's/Clare's/Galatea's FOV).

White Silver King · 2012-01-04, 15:53

Riful was using her entire body then as an offensive weapon. We've yet to see what Hysteria can do when she extends all of her legs and launches her blades simultaneously. And I believe Hysteria's speed feats to be much greater than Rifuls. Yeah Riful disappeared in the blink of an eye, but Hysteria disappeared from view, attacked Deneve and Nike, then turned around and got to Dietrich before any of them could even blink. And I think we've yet to see how fast she really is (she seems to be gearing up for an even faster attack on the last page) nor have we seen her decidely go for the kill.

View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 122 Rating
Perfect 10	3	6.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	8	17.02%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	10	21.28%
7 out of 10 : Good	11	23.40%
6 out of 10 : Average	9	19.15%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	3	6.38%
4 out of 10 : Poor	0	0%
3 out of 10 : Bad	2	4.26%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	1	2.13%
1 out of 10 : Painful	0	0%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

2012-01-03, 09:02	Link #264
haegar mangaviking Join Date: Jun 2009	Spoiler for just ma 5 cents of OT, BUT: this is getting slightly redundant __________________

2012-01-03, 09:15	Link #265
SpiritOfGray Karateka Join Date: May 2010 Age: 33	I think I'm looking at the technique a bit differently. I originally thought of it somewhat similar and thought it was pathetically weak. But even in the pictures you posted I'm seeing evidence that there may be more to it. First, lets assume the surprise factor is gone. I think merely dodging and coming back in will require more speed and skill than Cassandra herself, or a technique like quick sword. She mentions moving toward Roxanne in DE. In the first picture, her opponent that was aiming at going through her is completely to the right of her, including her legs. I find that odd because with the way the technique is described, Cassandra shouldn't be able to move her legs out of the way, and if she didn't, that means he opponent clearly can't aim. This makes me think that she has more control of her positioning in that half sphere she is existing in during the move, including the ability to change the position of the sphere by moving it. She may have missed an opponent, and they may come back in an instant later, but she could have the ability to change her angle, and her center point mid-Dust Eater, and counter the counter attack. It may be stretching the impossible to even more impossible, but I honestly can't think of how a simple surprise technique could make her one of Dae's most perfect creations. And about the movement of her feet during it. I could see it working in a type of pivoting motion. Changing the center of balance from one foot to the other. This could explain why when she had one leg chopped off, Roxanne was able to easily kill her with BoE. Despite maintaining the same speed, Cassandra could no longer change the position of her half- sphere, which severely ruined her Dust Eater's evasion. While her Awakened form is only based off of her original Dust Eater, and not proven to be exactly the same, it inspires me to think this way. I thought it was some stationary object, only good at attacking in 1 big sphere. When we she it evading for a short period, it is all over the place. Putting such mastery into a technique and having whatever it takes to survive for hours after being chopped to pieces, I can see why Cassandra would have been one of Dae's favorites. __________________

2012-01-03, 13:05	Link #268
Awakened Clare's #1 fan Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Florida	I think Cassandra uses her head to control her center of gravity. She move her head really fast, this allows her to move in any direction she wants at any time. She does not spin in a circle around her legs. Edit: You could think of Cassandra's head as a helicopter rotor. __________________ Miria is alive

2012-01-03, 14:11	Link #269
SpiritOfGray Karateka Join Date: May 2010 Age: 33	Yea, I'm thinking we can all agree on the fact that it's definitely not crystal clear at this point from what we've been shown. I could agree with nearly anyone's interpretation so far, but that isn't stopping me from making my own. I don't post often, so discussing something from a few chapters ago (especially after it was discussed there) is not the impression I want to leave lol. so ch. 122... I'm pretty sure I said that I gave it a 6, even though I'm liking the helpless feelings of the ghosts in it. Ch. 122 was nothing more than a set up. But, I felt it wasn't setting up what I wanted to see. Having Miria be healed, analyzing from the sidelines, and calling things out is only making me feel that Miria will cause Hysteria's defeat. We weren't shown the other abyssals fighting, which is something that is a must see after this build up, and it just gave me the feeling that Yagi may cheap out again. But luckily it was a short chapter, and that can be used as an excuse. Other than that, does anyone feel the blob could already be releasing it's members? No one is being disturbed by the Roxy vs Cassandra fight, so it's not like some giant power ups are going on. In fact, the closest thing happened last chapter when Roxy and Hysty awakened. If that didn't disturb the blob, then idk what will at this point. __________________

2012-01-02, 20:58	Link #261
Korinov The Burned Man walks! Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Asspain Age: 33	I have the feeling you guys are putting too much effort into a debate twisted from the very start I actually find it impossible to say if Cassandra is strong/weak/skilled/unskilled/whatever just from that particular scene. I find it so poorly written and drawn that it's just silly to try to create arguments based on what Yagi shows us there. There doesn't seem to exist a significative distance between Cassandra and Roxanne when the first one throws the head and makes her accusations (at least, not enough for a #1 to not cover it in the blink of an eye). Then Cassandra has to fight her way through dozens of warriors like if she charged from the beginning of a corridor and Roxanne were standing at the very end, with all the other warriors in the middle. And even in such a scenario, Cassandra should have been able to just bypass all those warriors merely by speed. And anyway... how many people were in that room? Because you get the impression Cassandra cuts quite a number of girls in her way to Roxanne, yet when she's taken down a whole bunch of warriors are shown to be pretty close to her, and seemingly without having taken a scratch. Did the MiB summon all the 47 warriors there? The idea of "killed after slaughtering tons of comrades in an act of revenge" may have sounded pretty cool when Yagi thought about it for the first time, but the execution on paper was quite dissapointing.

2012-01-02, 21:25	Link #262
Double_friedman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008	Right Korinov. But Cass was not able to land even a hit on Roxane. However, she only had her speed, which was the same from the very beginning. Even if one hit at full power with all its limbs had crushed Roxxanne, Cass' speed remained the same, which means that Roxanne could have used the Blade Evil at the very beginning. Maybe the blade of evil was a strong technique enough to stop a completely healthy Cass. We don't know that. Or maybe a completely healthy Cass would have been momentarily stopped and Roxanne would have just finished her off, or move backwards again.

2012-01-03, 09:41	Link #266
Gooral Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The town where Copernicus was born. Age: 38	@haegar Like all discussions about cartoon characters and cartoon physics. That doesn't stop you from discussing it, does it? @SpiritOfGray That's the thing, if Cassandra could do what you say then it would mean she was super strong, nimble and fast (since changing her position during DE would require going against immense forces and a superb sense of balance) but then why would she even need DE technique and not just use her assets the normal way? I think the right conclusion in all this is that Yagi didn't think this technique over, as it was with Anastasia's technique or Miria's mirages (and by that I mean, why are they even created? Also the fact that Miria could do her mirage in the air as we could see in one of the last pages of ch. 106, or on an icy surface as seen when she fought Clare). And the scene where she was killed was just poorly written and drawn. It was supposed to be original and cool and I think he succeeded at that. He didn't take into account there would be geeks analyzing it (or just didn't care since it's shounen manga) .

2012-01-03, 14:38	Link #272
Awakened Clare's #1 fan Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Florida	Next chapter Miria will Half-Awaken, like Clare in Pita. She has no choice. __________________ Miria is alive Last edited by Awakened; 2012-01-03 at 15:47.

2012-01-03, 15:13	Link #273
irvinethearcher Angriest Angel Join Date: Nov 2007	Just some fast thoughts on it... I am with malak, cassandra simply ignored her comrades going straight after roxanne. It is most impressive that her technique even worked when several limbs were cut off. I hope we will get to see that too in the soon comming clash. Sorry, but i have not much time on my hands right now. I hopefully getting at least the chapter 116 finished at which i have worked for so long. I have read MisterJBs post and know now what gooral wants to say but still another way we could see things is: Why cassandra had to wound them anyway? Well in order to get to roxanne she had to use her dirty technique because without it, she is weak as a number 5. Perhaps it was easier for cassy to avoid her comrades swords than avoid to cut them with her dust eater? I mean she is trained to avoid being cut but avoiding to cut others she never had trained at all because she used it only against awakened beings so far... So she didn't avoid their swords as sort of redemption? I mean malak is right... She is damn good at dodging, we can see that clearly when she fights roxanne as an AB. __________________ Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2012-01-03 at 15:46.

2012-01-04, 12:57	Link #276
su5so Member Join Date: Nov 2010	Do you think Histerya is faster than Alice? She really looks fast, but I think Alice might have easily done the same and even killing some claymores in her initial attack. I mean you do not need to be very quick to do the same Hysteria. Any abysmal should have enough speed to do the same, I think.

2012-01-04, 15:26	Link #277
Gooral Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The town where Copernicus was born. Age: 38	Probably she's the fastest thing besides Clare in Claymoreverse (not counting Teresa), so I doubt Alicia is as fast. But so far Hysteria hasn't shown that much, in fact she's a bit disappointing for an AO. She's of Alicia size but doesn't seem to have such destructive power as Isley/Riful/Luciella/Alicia, although it might just be that she has shown only a fraction of her power (I hope so). For now she looks the weakest of the three, Roxanne and Cassandra inspire respect with their size at least. Hysteria on the other hand seems to be in Rigaldo's league, only looks less impressive (even though she's faster). Then again, looks can be deceiving, Priscilla looked like a weakling also. But so far, she didn't do much damage and she still hasn't got rid of that stupid sword in her throat. I really, really, REALLY hope that Yagi won't use it to kill her because that would be too obvious and stupid at the same time. Please, please, let it not be a crude plot device that would make Hysteria a complete retard, it's bad as it is already.

2012-01-04, 15:38	Link #278
White Silver King The Isley Join Date: Oct 2011	I think her destructive power is fine, she just hasn't used it that much. She blew off a portion of 2 warriors bodies before they even saw her move. Had one of Riful's tentacles done that it would have just stabbed them which they can quickly recover from, whereas with this everyone besides Deneve is fucked if they get hit with that. Plus, her speed is completely overwhelming everyone even Miria wouldn't be able to anything against her. As for people complaining about Deneve regenerating the head-shot, it didn't hit her brain (but it was close) so of course she can regenerate the damage. __________________ "Wake up laughing like a prostitute." ...Win...

2012-01-04, 15:45	Link #279
Gooral Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The town where Copernicus was born. Age: 38	I disagree. Compare the scene where Hysteria's attack is easily blocked by Deneve and when Riful destroys easily the castle which even Duff's attacks weren't strong enough to collapse. Or the time when Clare was saying that if Riful finds her she would be cut to shreds in seconds. And I doubt you would say that Deneve is in Clare's league (it's obvious she isn't, heck, even Miria is of no match to Clare). Also Riful was really, really fast when she wanted to be (when she disappeared in a blink of an eye from Jean's/Clare's/Galatea's FOV).

2012-01-04, 15:53	Link #280
White Silver King The Isley Join Date: Oct 2011	Riful was using her entire body then as an offensive weapon. We've yet to see what Hysteria can do when she extends all of her legs and launches her blades simultaneously. And I believe Hysteria's speed feats to be much greater than Rifuls. Yeah Riful disappeared in the blink of an eye, but Hysteria disappeared from view, attacked Deneve and Nike, then turned around and got to Dietrich before any of them could even blink. And I think we've yet to see how fast she really is (she seems to be gearing up for an even faster attack on the last page) nor have we seen her decidely go for the kill. __________________ "Wake up laughing like a prostitute." ...Win...