Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by yvj

You actually think Luciano cared about Britannia? You think he wouldn't turn on his superiors if he could have gotten away with it?

Luciano could have killed Suzaku or Gino if could and it would have hurt the cause of his nation.

The perfect soldier does whatever he can for his nation. He goes above and beyond morality and the rationality FOR the nation. Luciano is at best a hired gun. He is portrayed as caring more for the pleasure of killing then the objectives of his people.

Well if you go back a few pages, I said close to the ideal, not the ideal.

... and didn't I just say that Luciano was not a perfect soldier?

[bladeofdarkness]

@Frost
Terminator isnt an ideal soldier or any kind of soldier
trust me on this
the last thing you want from a soldier is someone who kills without remorse whatsoever
at least not if you have a 1st world army (some countries really do consider it a good thing i suppose)
there is a reason why people get discharged for mental reasons from the army
someone who kills without any care about who, is capable of doing things that the entire army can regret
i have actually MET someone like that (on trail for murder, during my service years)
the guy brought shame to the army with his actions that lasts to this day

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@Frost
Terminator isnt an ideal soldier or any kind of soldier
trust me on this
the last thing you want from a soldier is someone who kills without remorse whatsoever
at least not if you have a 1st world army (some countries really do consider it a good thing i suppose)
there is a reason why people get discharged for mental reasons from the army
someone who kills without any care about who, is capable of doing things that the entire army can regret
i have actually MET someone like that (on trail for murder, during my service years)
the guy brought shame to the army with his actions that lasts to this day

This isn't about applications, ideals never carry over into reality because they are unachievable things. The terminator, in theoretical application, would be the most effective machine to achieve victory making him the most ideal soldier in fulfilling the duty of a soldier, bringing victory. If we actually apply human standards and morality then ideals go out the window. Its not about application, its about theorycrafting.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@Frost
Terminator isnt an ideal soldier or any kind of soldier
trust me on this
the last thing you want from a soldier is someone who kills without remorse whatsoever
at least not if you have a 1st world army (some countries really do consider it a good thing i suppose)
there is a reason why people get discharged for mental reasons from the army
someone who kills without any care about who, is capable of doing things that the entire army can regret
i have actually MET someone like that (on trail for murder, during my service years)
the guy brought shame to the army with his actions that lasts to this day

An Army is not (well, most aren't) a tool for mass murdering. An Army is a mean to protect a country and its citizen. In that kind of army, a perfect soldier is not a brainless muderer.

(i am not talking about Britannia's army)

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Well if you go back a few pages, I said close to the ideal, not the ideal.

... and didn't I just say that Luciano was not a perfect soldier?

So what are we arguing about than? I'm confused. Either way Gino and Luciano are not in the same league.

If by your definition the perfect soldier is the The Terminator. That means that he's practically inhuman. If Luciano is closer to that than Gino than Luciano has less humanity.

They can't be on the same plateau than. If one is closer to a programmed killing machine while one (Gino) can obviously come to think for himself if he is willing to accept it.

[bladeofdarkness]

the problem with that theory is that the soldier (in your discription) is not a "soldier" but a "weapon"
the commander pulls the trigger and the soldier goes off to do whatever without thinking himself
lelouch made an entire ARMY of such soldiers in the last arc
they didnt match up well against the free thinking black knights
a soldiers ability to think for himself and act as HE thinks is best to do the mission is a great advantage (as the allies learned on D-day)
if all the soldier does is "obey" and nothing more he is also a lesser soldier for it

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by yvj

So what are we arguing about than? I'm confused. Either way Gino and Luciano are not in the same league.

If by your definition the perfect soldier is the The Terminator. That means that he's practically inhuman. If Luciano is closer to that than Gino than Luciano has less humanity.

They can't be on the same plateau than. If one is closer to a programmed killing machine while one (Gino) can obviously come to think for himself if he is willing to accept it.

One more time. Ideal =/= perfect or model. Look at my post on the last page, I am talking about the theoretical ideal on the basics of what is a soldier. In fact I never even compared Gino and Luciano in terms of soldiers, I compared them in terms of villanouis actions. Nowhere did I make any comparison between the two in terms of their soldierly existance other than that they both enjoy fighting and killing people, one much more so than the other.

Others made the comparison not me.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the problem with that theory is that the soldier (in your discription) is not a "soldier" but a "weapon"
the commander pulls the trigger and the soldier goes off to do whatever without thinking himself
lelouch made an entire ARMY of such soldiers in the last arc
they didnt match up well against the free thinking black knights
a soldiers ability to think for himself and act as HE thinks is best to do the mission is a great advantage (as the allies learned on D-day)
if all the soldier does is "obey" and nothing more he is also a lesser soldier for it

They matched up fine against an army that was heavily stacked against them in terms of raw fire power, but they are not ideal, they are just weapons. An ideal soldier may not question or show remorse, but they are not suicidal maniacs as per the Geass-army.

For instance, the terminator thinks freely on how to accomplish his mission, he simply never questions the mission nor shows morale backlash for any actions that make succeeding more likely.

You are trying to frame the ideal that I am talking about as a gun, its not.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by yvj

They can't be on the same plateau than. If one is closer to a programmed killing machine while one (Gino) can obviously come to think for himself if he is willing to accept it.

I loved the part when Gino started to "think" about what he was protecting/doing. His ideals or just a group of people who command him or just " a land".

I am talking about that discussion in the last Arc when Suzaku asked him to join him since Gino always claimed to be a "britannian soldier".

I am curious about what Luciano would have chosen.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

One more time. Ideal =/= perfect or model. Look at my post on the last page, I am talking about the theoretical ideal on the basics of what is a soldier. In fact I never even compared Gino and Luciano in terms of soldiers, I compared them in terms of villanouis actions. Nowhere did I make any comparison between the two in terms of their soldierly existance other than that they both enjoy fighting and killing people, one much more so than the other.

Others made the comparison not me.

So then my posts are directed towards other people? My bad then if that is the case

Well if what was being discussed was ethics through intentions. Then Luciano is much more villainous than Gino

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Narona

An Army is not (well, most aren't) a tool for mass murdering. An Army is a mean to protect a country and its citizen. In that kind of army, a perfect soldier is not a brainless muderer.

(i am not talking about Britannia's army)

Technically, an army is a large body of people organized and trained for land warfare.
However, army's first priority, is what you said and i do agree with your point.

eta:: Luciano would choose, whatever side had MOAR people to kill. 8D

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Narona

I loved the part when Gino started to "think" about what he was protecting/doing. His ideals or just a group of people who command him or just " a land".

I am talking about that discussion in the last Arc when Suzaku asked him to join him since Gino always claimed to be a "britannian soldier".

I am curious about what Luciano would have chosen.

No he didn't, the second to last episode, he blankly tells Suzaku/Lelouch that he wants the old Britannia back. He has not questioned anything, he wanted the status-quo back.

[yvj]

Oh btw I still dislike Gino.

And the idea of Kagino still makes my brain hurt from its OOCnes

My reputation must remain intact. XD

[Narona]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

eta:: Luciano would choose, whatever side had MOAR people to kill. 8D

Well, so he would have chosen "Emperor" Lelouch's side I guess xD He would have loved to kill all the nobles that opposed Lelouch.

Luciano didn't care about Britannia in any way, he just wanted to kill people.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by yvj

Well if what was being discussed was ethics through intentions. Then Luciano is much more villainous than Gino

I weigh fascist nationalism above personal bloodlust, Luciano (from his own mouth) hunts on the battlefield for fame and glory. We've never seen him do anything to random civilians. Gino, on the otherhand, was perfectly fine with "nationalistically" cleansing civilians.

Who's more villainous?

Originally Posted by Narona

Luciano didn't care about Britannia in any way, he just wanted to kill people.

How so? The man wanted to be respected within the Empire, that is why he is a KoR. You don't assign a loose cannon as one of your heads of command. The man even said that he fought for fame and glory, that means he fights for his nation.

[Grey Dawn]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the problem with that theory is that the soldier (in your discription) is not a "soldier" but a "weapon"
the commander pulls the trigger and the soldier goes off to do whatever without thinking himself
lelouch made an entire ARMY of such soldiers in the last arc
they didnt match up well against the free thinking black knights
a soldiers ability to think for himself and act as HE thinks is best to do the mission is a great advantage (as the allies learned on D-day)
if all the soldier does is "obey" and nothing more he is also a lesser soldier for it

I have to disagree with you here, a soldier who makes decisions for himself is often worse than a soldier who adheres strictly to orders. A soldier should not be like a computer program, where you have to order his every motion, but soldiers that take methods they think will be better to their superior's create disorganization, get captured and leak information, and have no teamwork. It's in circumstances after orders are compromised that a soldier's personal thinking comes in. That, or in moral calls, as the concept of "revolt" and "dissertion" are important in armies to stop power abuse. But for the most part, following orders should come above individual thinking, for the betterment of the military.

[bladeofdarkness]

i didnt mean think for themselves as in "do i want to follow orders"
but i meant you dont want soldiers who would do ANYTHING simply becouse it was ordered
becouse it prevents them from being able to operate effectively when on their own and it makes for poor leaders later on (as these soldiers become leaders)
and there are cased when you actually DO want soldiers who would refuse orders when the orders are going too far
"revolt" isnt what i meant
independent thinking however is good

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I weigh fascist nationalism above personal bloodlust, Luciano (from his own mouth) hunts on the battlefield for fame and glory. We've never seen him do anything to random civilians. Gino, on the otherhand, was perfectly fine with "nationalistically" cleansing civilians.

Who's more villainous?

Yes we haven't "seen" it. But looking at his standard character do you believe he would not turn on civilians?

Every time Gino had promoted genocide or mass murder it would have theoretically been to the benefit of the war effort. From what we can pull from Gino we could imagine he has a line. Luciano is a wild beast you unleash on your enemies, he would keep the war going on forever to keep his little playground so he can kill with no restraint.

Let's say the Elevens surrendered, who is more likely to have secret Eleven death marches that had no effect on the outcome of the war whatsoever Gino or Luciano?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Gino isn't the second coming of Luciano; I was saying he was (when you strip away the aesthetics) just as 'evil'. They are villains, afterall.

I don't see many characters in Code Geass that are portrayed as mere villains, but I don't disagree with the rest of the sentence.

It's called being convincing.

lol. xD

You proved my point, that the only reason the two are treated differently is because of their outwardly appearances. Luciano is just bad always all the time. Gino is friendly, but bad at the core. It's all just down to personal preferences that simply tend to ignore the character's actual character and look at the things that are preferable or not. (Everyone does this, so either everyone is shallow or no one is. Its when you deny the shit the character has done that you become shallow.)

Again, I agree... except for the "core" thing.
We already had this with Clovis. For me, the "core" is the most important part of a person - their essence, the thing that reveals who they really are -, and if someone has a "rotten" one, then that would mean there's absolutely nothing there worth saving.
Which, from my point of view, isn't the case with Gino and Clovis. They both have more than one side to them, even though I'm not sure about the extend of Gino's better qualities.
With Clovis, however... Lelouch kicking his butt instead of shooting him would probably have done the job. xD
He seemed like a truly awesome person in the Sound Drama, and I think he still had a lot potential.

Gino has an outwardly personality, which appeals to you, but he's a genocidal villain. Luciano is just a murderous sadist with nothing you can identify with.

I agree... except for the things I already disagreed with above. xD

Frankly, genocidal villain >>>> murderous sadist. But that is limited by the stain-of-a-character that Gino is... or is he a bunny rabbit!? If you actually apply his KoR sneaker novel background to the mix and Luciano's, Luciano is far more pitiable with his abused past. Gino just comes off as an idiot when you factor in his novel background.

I'm so glad I didn't read that novel....
But if Luciano had something left I could identify with, I'd give him a pat on the back, too. xD

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I will agree with you, in the point that Gino is more likeable than Luciano. Hell, Gino was shown doing his silliness around and had more screentime than Luciano, something that certainly is a plus for a chara, plus he did help Guren in the end. {ok, here kicks my Guren-divine-my-God-feeling, so let us leave this behind. 8D}
But srsly, most people like Gino more than Luciano, because, no matter how shallow it might seem to a few people, Gino was made to be kinda likable at points.
But in the end of the day, he is just a typical Britannia soldier, that hates Elevens. Not much to look there. He did have his moment of clarity "what am i fighting forrrr?" just for the sake of it, as i saw it. Seemed completely "eh" at some point.
But yeah, in terms of like-ness, definitely Gino for me compared to Luciano. Without this meaning, that Gino was not a racist prick at times, that just loved killing Elevens.

I agree, even though I don't think he hates Elevens, specifically. He's just too damn loyal to Britannia - the one kind of loyalty I don't fangirl, because it's completely blind and, from my point of view, stupid. Oh, and fanatic/connected to many irrational, highly questionable emotions.
I can relate better there to Clovis, who apparently just stopped caring all together. Not very admirable, either, but... it makes me want to hug him even more.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i didnt mean think for themselves as in "do i want to follow orders"
but i meant you dont want soldiers who would do ANYTHING simply becouse it was ordered
becouse it prevents them from being able to operate effectively when on their own and it makes for poor leaders later on (as these soldiers become leaders)
and there are cased when you actually DO want soldiers who would refuse orders when the orders are going too far
"revolt" isnt what i meant
independent thinking however is good

But when you have ideals, like I told you before, you cannot apply them to reality. In an ideal everything has to be ideal. If you have an ideal soldier you need to have an ideal leader. At which point, the ideal soldier spends his life as an ideal soldier, led by his ideal leader. When you factor in real life, as in living away from battle, then things become messy and ideals fall apart. Communism doesn't work because it is an ideal that is ruined by human nature.

Its not so much that we disagree, its that we are missing each other's point. You are talking about the realistic, I am talking about the ideal (meaning everything would have to be ideal).

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by yvj

Yes we haven't "seen" it. But looking at his standard character do you believe he would not turn on civilians?

Every time Gino had promoted genocide or mass murder it would have theoretically been to the benefit of the war effort. From what we can pull from Gino we could imagine he has a line. Luciano is a wild beast you unleash on your enemies, he would keep the war going on forever to keep his little playground so he can kill with no restraint.

Let's say the Elevens surrendered, who is more likely to have secret Eleven death marches that had no effect on the outcome of the war whatsoever Gino or Luciano?

You can't really just guess, the man has loyal soldiers following him that do not look like loons, so the man cannot be an insufferable lunatic all the time.

The question with Gino is where do you draw the line, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of civilians, not ten or twenty. He is being a pure bread fascist with that line of reasoning, erradicate the troublemakers for the better of my view of society. So where does he draw the line?

I would say neither, Luciano says it simply on his own that he is only interested in fame and glory brought on by victory on the battlefield. Neither of which would come from killing helpless people. Go back and look at what he says carefully, he's not that insane. He just draws sadistic pleasure from war.