Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

I seen all variants, and to me, they all end in pretty much the same way. I haven't played the game, so I cannot really relate to Maggy, but it definitely does not top Guilty Crown's own god-awful, vomit-inducing, stomach-revolting, gut-wrenching, writhe-in-pain ending...

- Tak

Okay, imagine if Guilty Crown would have been a stand-out series, with the best plotting, best characters and best setting seen in anime in ages. Then imagine if it threw all that away for a Deus Ex Machina asspull ending, which utterly trashed said setting, left all the characters stranded in a place where they will probably never be able to get back to civilization, directly implies that the two most beloved side characters are going to starve to death before the eyes of the other characters and with the main character most likely also dead, with a small implication that he survived, but would never see his band of blood brothers and sisters and his love interest ever again. And then also pull a "it was all a story told by a grandfather to his grandchild".

Then you maybe will begin to understand how bad the endings were for a fan of the franchise

And that is just the beginning, if I'd go a layer deeper, I could do write-up all evening about this disaster.

Anyway, we are getting again OT, if you guys want to discuss it further, either send me a PM or put it in spoiler tags. But be prepared for a load of bitterness from my part.

[LoveMeKags]

^
I think there is one thing most of us - except those whom haven't seen it - can agree on: Frontier's series ending was light-years better than Guilty Crown.

There's no doubt in my mind that even I would prefer Frontier's ending over GC. It was just horribly rushed and the whole series had become a complete fail. I went into GC expecting to see the good side of Yoshino just to be really disappointed. I had read that he was the leader in it all - and the writer - and was expecting to finally see what everyone else saw in him; only to be bashing my head against the wall as he pulls out yet another asspull. It's really sad to think it: Yoshino leaves Frontier behind and goes to make something new to "shake the generation" only for it to be complete and utter fail, and in so many ways that it makes me puke. The ironic part is that just months before GC started to air, a bunch of us over here were speaking about him, and everyone was defending him, telling me I was wrong. However, looking at the anime I have watched by him and then seeing this... this junk - not even good enough to call it a series - I think I stand firm when I say "I'm glad Kawamori didn't let Yoshino write or direct the series of Frontier."

---

Back on topic, BetoJR, you're actually lucky that you still live in a country that's allowed to ship them in. I live in the U.S., so I'll likely never see any of the later Macross series come to the starts unless ordering them online.

Robotech and Harmony Gold have basically ruined those chances for the U.S. We no longer have any claim of copyright to the whole series of Macross anymore. Even so, they don't stop from making pointless "non"-sequels to SDF with new footage. However, they halted their projects multiple times throughout the years, and there has been talking of them dropping it altogether. First, the artwork is nothing like that of SDF, nor anime for that matter, and it has more of a tone of modern day dramas on TV than it does any Japanese culture. For example, there is a lot of slang in the later series, as well as "it's all about war, sex, and death." SDF was about survival and singing, not to mention the Macross itself. Well, Robotech ain't even close anymore. And don't get me started on the characters. And, to top it all over, it's only in English--which I feel is the worst language for Macross projects ever.

Oh, why can't the U.S. just focus on Batman, Superman, and all their hero comics? Why do we try to dub or alter Japanese products? We just fuck them up. But that doesn't speak just for our dubs, but every other country also has that issue. Still, none so far has done like the U.S. did to Macross by making it Robotech.

Also, I'd love to go to a store for once and buy an anime that only has the Japanese track with English subtitles. No, I have to get that online if I only want one track of audio. Now, if you buy the anime, the English track comes with it and is the primary, so you have to switch it to Japanese and add subtitles. I dislike that. It comes from Japan so naturally the original track should come first and make those who don't respect it choose the English.

[Ithekro]

Remember that Robotech was not just Macross, but also two other shows. Unlike Macross, in Robotech, Earth has been blasted multiple times to near extinction, and as far as I can tell they don't have multiple colony fleets heading out. But then the "Macross" section characters...well the mains, are still alive and kicking on the SDF-3 (cause for whatever reason they had the SDF-1 and SDF-2 back to back and killed off most of the bridge crew when they were taken out). But only really in some of the American made sequels, or the sequals based on the other shows like the Mospeda OVA. The other two-thirds of the show basically had the SDF-3 and SDF-4...out of the system, doing stuff, while Earth is invaded twice. Both of the other shows that were part of Robotech had nothing to so with Macross other than they had similar artwork and transforming mecha.

It is a mess, and by the end it has almost nothing to do with Macross anymore....but is its own story.

(And some people still like it. Mostly those that never liked the singing beated enemies parts of Macross)

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Back on topic, BetoJR, you're actually lucky that you still live in a country that's allowed to ship them in. I live in the U.S., so I'll likely never see any of the later Macross series come to the starts unless ordering them online.

Well, we're on the same boat, then.
We never got any Macross-related home video releases in my country, either. But we did have Robotech on TV, when I was a wee lad. It wasn't the first anime I ever saw (that distinction goes to both Groizer-X and Starblazers/Yamato, which were on at around the same time, plus assorted episodes of Kimba and Don Dracula - yes, I'm old, so what?) but it was the one I liked most.

Also, there are some US companies who only do subs, aren't there? Like NIS? I mean, it actually makes sense, since it's cheaper and most niche/cult stuff would benefit from lower production costs.

[Tak]

Robotech is a hulking mess, and how they managed to release an entire original movie based on the 'franchise' (if you can call it that), baffles me.

But to be fair:

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I'm glad Kawamori didn't let Yoshino write or direct the series of Frontier."

I think your assessment is still shaky. Yoshino did not direct Guilty Crown either. A screenwriter does not automatically translate into plot-maker, or hold the final say on how an ending should turn out.

Its debatable whether or not Yoshino suggested to Kawamori in regards to the ending of the original Frontier series, but it doesn't change the fact that Kawamori was the one who made the final decision. Furthermore, from a marketing point of view, you cannot deny it was fucking brilliant.

Likewise, it was Tetsuro Araki who directed Guilty Crown. And this is the guy who did Galaxy Angels of all things...

Though from a marketing point of view, it was not-so-brilliant. I was originally interested in the prequel VN. NOT ANYMORE!

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Oh, why can't the U.S. just focus on Batman, Superman, and all their hero comics? Why do we try to dub or alter Japanese products?

Japan used to have their own version of Spiderman back in the 70s. Basically it was a guy in the (yes, Marvel) spider suit, a motorcycle and a giant robot killing aliens from outer space.

It was... quite er... humorous.

- Tak

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

There's no doubt in my mind that even I would prefer Frontier's ending over GC. It was just horribly rushed and the whole series had become a complete fail. I went into GC expecting to see the good side of Yoshino just to be really disappointed. I had read that he was the leader in it all - and the writer - and was expecting to finally see what everyone else saw in him; only to be bashing my head against the wall as he pulls out yet another asspull. It's really sad to think it: Yoshino leaves Frontier behind and goes to make something new to "shake the generation" only for it to be complete and utter fail, and in so many ways that it makes me puke. The ironic part is that just months before GC started to air, a bunch of us over here were speaking about him, and everyone was defending him, telling me I was wrong. However, looking at the anime I have watched by him and then seeing this... this junk - not even good enough to call it a series - I think I stand firm when I say "I'm glad Kawamori didn't let Yoshino write or direct the series of Frontier."

Yoshino did write Frontier. In fact he wrote all the episodes of Frontier, unlike Guilty Crown (though he wrote enough of Guilty Crown that he probably deserves a fair bit of the blame for how awful it got). He also wrote all but one of the episodes of Mai-HiME, which is another one of my favorite anime series. The fact that he was involved in writing Guilty Crown does not change those facts. He may deserve some of the blame for Guilty Crown being as bad as it was, but I think he also deserves credit for some of the other series he worked on being as good as they were.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

He also wrote all but one of the episodes of Mai-HiME, which is another one of my favorite anime series.

Oh gawd, that... the Mai-Franchise was milked to such excess that even I found uncomfortable.

Despite the fact that I have enjoyed just about all of its incarnations...

- Tak

[Darthtabby]

You may notice I was referring specifically to the Mai-HiME anime, not the Mai franchise as a whole.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

You may notice I was referring specifically to the Mai-HiME anime, not the Mai franchise as a whole.

Yeah, I know. Except you reminded me just how crazy I was about the franchise back in the day...

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Tak

I think your assessment is still shaky. Yoshino did not direct Guilty Crown either. A screenwriter does not automatically translate into plot-maker, or hold the final say on how an ending should turn out.

Its debatable whether or not Yoshino suggested to Kawamori in regards to the ending of the original Frontier series, but it doesn't change the fact that Kawamori was the one who made the final decision. Furthermore, from a marketing point of view, you cannot deny it was fucking brilliant.

Likewise, it was Tetsuro Araki who directed Guilty Crown. And this is the guy who did Galaxy Angels of all things...

Though from a marketing point of view, it was not-so-brilliant. I was originally interested in the prequel VN. NOT ANYMORE!

Sadly, a nice quote from Wikipedia finalizes my thoughts:

Guilty Crown is being directed by Tetsuro Araki with the series' script's supervision being handled by Hiroyuki Yoshino and assisted by Ichirō Ōkouchi.

It was the fact that Yoshino was so involved in this project that he was leveled up to chief in the script department. You could always read my review for this anime to know how horrible I thought the script was anyway.

I do agree that he is one of the many to blame. I know there are a lot more. I'm aware.

However, going into this anime, knowing he'd be a part of it, and seeing his large role in it, I had no expectations. I couldn't even experience interest in it beyond the level of art design and mecha, and the fanservice. So... my expectation was already low.

Japan used to have their own version of Spiderman back in the 70s. Basically it was a guy in the (yes, Marvel) spider suit, a motorcycle and a giant robot killing aliens from outer space.

It was... quite er... humorous.

I know you get my actual meaning though. Why can't the U.S. stick solely to its own animation? I don't see many of our cartoons being taken to Japan and dubbed. As a matter of fact, I rarely see anything but international movies being dubbed.

The fact is, lately they've gotten lazy with doing dubs, and more anime comes out sounding a lot like DBZ. It's sad, really; because there are some dubs that do the anime justice. One in particular was Rurouni Kenshin (not the OVA or movie but the series). Although, certain classics like Yu-Gi-Oh, weren't that badly dubbed, just the script was poor. But... don't get me started on Sailor Moon. Yu Yu Hakusho had to be the only other one I found as a good dub with some script errors.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Yoshino did write Frontier. In fact he wrote all the episodes of Frontier, unlike Guilty Crown (though he wrote enough of Guilty Crown that he probably deserves a fair bit of the blame for how awful it got). He also wrote all but one of the episodes of Mai-HiME, which is another one of my favorite anime series. The fact that he was involved in writing Guilty Crown does not change those facts. He may deserve some of the blame for Guilty Crown being as bad as it was, but I think he also deserves credit for some of the other series he worked on being as good as they were.

I never said I disliked all of his series. But quite a few that he had involvement in have disappointed me. And so, I have no expectations of him.

I'm not saying that I won't at least follow to see if one day my expectations are met - he does show potential and a lot of his series have certain key points that I find interesting enough to watch - but until then, my impression remains the same. Plus, he's like certain other people out there that only squeezes out what he thinks the audience will buy. I think it speaks well, considering GC's Inori (whom was way too beautiful).

[Ithekro]

Probably because there was a period of time were the American animation industry was pretty much dead. At least for television. Yet television stations still wanted a cartoon block for after school, some before school, and Saturday mornings. This was the 1970s, 1980s and part of the 1990s. Before everything went to cable. Add to that the increase in the number of television station via cable and satellite and you get more programming needed than the crippled American animation industry could produce, or even afford to produce.

Hense the heavy use to Japanese animation. Both in the fashion of dubbed releases of Japanese shows, but also in hiring Japanese companies to produce shows for the Americans (The original Transformers is a prime example).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

However, going into this anime, knowing he'd be a part of it, and seeing his large role in it, I had no expectations. I couldn't even experience interest in it beyond the level of art design and mecha, and the fanservice. So... my expectation was already low.

Thats fine and dandy, but it still does not mean he has the final say. He 'may' suggest, but that is probably all he can do.

Likewise, a mangaka may author manga, but he/she may not always have the final decision on how the plot should flow. Editors tend to have the capacity in exercising strong interference in that regard. Thats just how the industry works.

Hell, he can bear the title of Holy Deity King of Writers for _insert project here_, and have the corresponding payroll, but it does NOT mean he is the monkey-in-the-hat with the final say.

- Tak

[Darthtabby]

As a note, Yoshino had the role of Series Composer for both Guilty Crown and Macross Frontier. For Guilty Crown he had an assistant, for Frontier he is the only person credited with that role. Although it's geared more towards adaptations than original series, the following gives a good idea of what a Series Composer does:

http://hontouni.com/zan/2008/08/10/s...udio-pedigree/

As noted in the article, Series Composers often write episodes themselves as well, which is true in the case of Yoshino's involvement in both Guilty Crown (where he wrote 13 episodes) and Frontier (where he wrote all the episodes).

[LoveMeKags]

Either way, it seems like everyone who had a say in Guilty Crown took a rather amazing visual series and turned it into a horrific piece. I, for one, did not go into the anime expecting much when I saw him on the list of those involved, and sadly, a lot of people were expecting a lot. Their dreams were crushed. Mine weren't.

I had the complete opposite hopes of Macross Frontier. Odd... huh? But then again, Kawamori is the sole creator of Macross to begin with, so Yoshino could go ahead and suggest but he wouldn't get very far.

[Darthtabby]

My problem isn't so much with giving Yoshino some of the blame for Guilty Crown, but in denying him credit for his work on Frontier. If anything I've seen more evidence of him having a significant influence on Frontier than I've seen evidence of him having a significant influence on Guilty Crown. I seem to remember one of the interviews indicated that Yoshino and Kawamori would often get a sort of tag team going with crazy ideas during planning sessions. Also while I never put any significance on his involvement in either project the first time I saw them, once I found out Mai HiME and Macross Frontier shared a writer I started seeing figurative fingerprints linking the two. Granted there were things about Guilty Crown that reminded me of some of Yoshino's other works too. One key difference however was that HiME and Frontier seemed to have much better character building that Guilty Crown. I don't know how much Yoshino was involved with coming up with the basic character concepts for HiME and Frontier (other than the fact that Clan's loli micron form came out of a suggestion which he (iirc) supposedly made as a joke) but he was certainly a major influence on how they were developed in series.

[LoveMeKags]

Guilty Crown seemed rushed. So I don't think "character build" was what they were going for. Considering the fact I couldn't keep up with whom was dead and who wasn't, they hardly cared about their characters. That was another thing wrong with it.

If I remember correctly, Kawamori said he felt upset to have to kill Michael off. I really wonder if that was Yoshino's idea, looking at his past record.

[Darthtabby]

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but if it's true, wouldn't that actually strengthen my argument that Yoshino had a significant influence on Frontier?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I really wonder if that was Yoshino's idea, looking at his past record.

You base too much of your impression on just the more recent shows.

His past record also included Mai Hime & Otome, both of which I love dearly. The only complaint I have about Otome was the death of Erstin, but otherwise, both really well constructed series. WITH FUCKING HAPPY ENDINGS!

Although the latter was milked a bit too much...

He also co-authored the manga... and sometimes I wish the manga would be adapted instead...

Oh yeah... Idolmaster: Xenoglossia... was weird.

- Tak

[Darthtabby]

There might not be much in the interviews that will back me up on this, but given Yoshino and Kawamori's respective track records I think one could argue that Frontier TV's ending is a Yoshino ending and Sayonara no Tsubasa's ending is a Kawamori ending.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but if it's true, wouldn't that actually strengthen my argument that Yoshino had a significant influence on Frontier?

I never denied it in the first place. Don't you recall a certain time period where I blamed him for the plot of Frontier going downhill in the second half?

Originally Posted by Tak

You base too much of your impression on just the more recent shows.

His past record also included Mai Hime & Otome, both of which I love dearly. The only complaint I have about Otome was the death of Erstin, but otherwise, both really well constructed series. WITH FUCKING HAPPY ENDINGS!

Although the latter was milked a bit too much...

He also co-authored the manga... and sometimes I wish the manga would be adapted instead...

Oh yeah... Idolmaster: Xenoglossia... was weird.

- Tak

I hate that any series he does always has character deaths, and most of those characters have potential or in Frontier's case, had emotional attachment.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

There might not be much in the interviews that will back me up on this, but given Yoshino and Kawamori's respective track records I think one could argue that Frontier TV's ending is a Yoshino ending and Sayonara no Tsubasa's ending is a Kawamori ending.

I'm sorry, but no. Both ends agreed upon the series ending with triangular. Neither could come up with a nice solution to it. Of course, there was plenty of debate about the series ending being Yoshino's idea, however; many later interviews and the commentary itself proved it to be a mutual decision. That doesn't mean I deny him the credit for the facepalm ending. I certainly do. I do for both whom were involved in that choice.

But I doubt that Kawamori would've gone with choosing Sheryl in the series based on where the plot had led to and the unfairness it would be to the three mains, considering their positions in the last few episodes. Not to speak for him but as a writer myself, I wouldn't do something totally unfair to my characters, not if they didn't deserve it; and sadly, looking at Ranka's character and where she ended up then to Sheryl's character with so much potential being wasted to a deadly virus and finally to Alto's character being dragged around by the plot; it would be unfair to have ended it with a choice in the series.

The movies had more potential of a fair ending, albeit I disagree with the "needed" flashback of Alto meeting Sheryl to "help him fall in love with her" as Minmei nor Misa got the same treatment; but they (meaning all three mains) had better ground in the movies. And so, I like the movie's ending for that purpose.

The series ending left a lot of people going not only "what the fuck" but "nooooo!!" However, the series had more time to explain the character arcs than the movies did. And so, if someone just walked into the movies without watching the series, they wouldn't understand the depth of Alto, Sheryl, Ranka, Michael, and all the others characters. That's why I think as a happy medium, it was nice that Kawamori recommend newcomers watch the first half of the series to get the character build and understand the backgrounds. However, the first movie... it felt more like that came AFTER the series rather than was a remake of the first half.

Still, Yoshino had some say in the direction of Sayonara no Tsubasa too. He was invited back, as much as I hate to say it. However, I wonder if Kawamori disliked what he did in the series, because his role went down. He was no longer the composition... I still doubt that Kawamori wanted Sheryl to win, but even if that was Yoshino's idea (or their mutual agreement), the fact that he spent so much time on Ranka's concerts made me happy. And I liked how few concerts Sheryl got this time around (kind of like a balance to the series).

I guess you could say I like and dislike both universes equally for their lack of certain things. Frontier obviously should've been longer, like 36 episodes, and how would that not be a salute to SDF? But they cut it to 25... and sadly, a lot of the plot lacked structure for the second half. What a disappointment there.

However, the second movie left a lot of people confused at what became of certain characters (like someone asked me if Brera had gone MIA with Alto); and the plot... don't get me started there. I still get questions from people on YT via PM that ask me about what the plot is about and whether the enemy is dead or alive. And sadly, a lot of the movie leaves that piece open. For one, in the series, Galaxy had another ship (the main ship, or home--you know, that orange ship shown being attacked) which was also shown in the first movie; however, it doesn't show up in the second, which left people believing it was destroyed. BUT it successfully folded in the first movie, which meant it was still around in the second. So therefore Galaxy is not totally destroyed. That would make the enemy alive. However, because there is no evidence, people don't know which side to believe.

I think that they should've made three movies instead of two because the plot could have gone on for an extra movie, but I guess they squeezed it all in because of budget and time. And you can tell when certain scenes are absolutely rushed, and one of them is that lovely confession scene to Sheryl (the screen behind Alto is bouncing to keep the CGI in place... apparently they didn't know the position of the last screen and kept trying to put it back).