The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Crimen Scythe

I just wanted to know wut it's like to be an animator...is an animator's income low?...do they live crappy lives? do they spend most of their time just drinking and relaxing? Can they be considered poor?...do they live happy?...i just want to know stuff pertaining to how animators live...(not only those questions...)

Lives of quiet desperation.

There was an very similar thread posted recently. I'll merge them once I find it. Edit: Threads merged. And slightly renamed.

[Crimen Scythe]

Thank You...
heh and at one point in my life, i was thinking of becoming an animator...hmm, now i kind of shiver at the thought...
EDIT: I also saw Otaku no Video once and that made me feel like anime wasnt worth watching...and becoming an animator is the crappiest job there is...and also, DONT ASPIRE TO RULE THE WORLD WITH ANIME, IT'S NOT WORTH IT...that's wut i got from watching...(damn, and i was thinking of ruling the world with anime too)

[DaFool]

It depends on perspective. It seems that outsourced Korean studios are cheap outfits. But then consider that Korea is practically the animation capital of the world, since most US, Japanese, and Canadian companies choose Korea first when they outsource. If you are expecting sweatshops be surprised at the state of the art facilities that they have. Their "low" wages is only because of exchange rates. Salarymen and contract workers have basically the same experience all over the world, with non-union ones costing much less.

My parents used to recall how at one time they were laughing at the cheap Japanese products that flooded the market after WWII and how crappy they were. Times have changed and now Hyundai is a premium brand here and in India. If I recall correctly Mushishi had chinese names in the credit list (why they spelt them with roman alphabets I have no idea) This is envious because the only Filipino names I see credited are the directors in Precure, mostly the whole 100+ artist team is just labeled as an entity.

I am not an animator, so my life is a little more luxurious, though I am responsible for some production / technical aspects of animation. But I only need to look across the room and see what's in store.

1.) Do you want to sleep and bathe in the animation studio, going home (if at all) only during the weekends?
2.) Do you want a steady diet of coffee, coke, Ministop fried chicken, 7-Eleven hotdogs, and cigarettes?
3.) Do you want to work very hard on a scene, only to have to redo it because someone down the pipeline thinks it sucks? Or worse, because some idiot accidentally deleted it.
4.) Do you want to be assured that after the current project is over, you have no guarantee of your next work?
5.) Do you just love to bask in the condescending attitudes of the expats who make no effort to mask the fact that they dislike you because you are doing their job for cheap and who blame all bad quality on the outsourcing and subcontractors, and yet at the same time change their minds at the last minute to redo some scenes worse than they were to begin with?
6.) Do you like to work with people who did not have a good education, or who were involved in drugs at some point in their lives?

If you would love these things, then by all means aspire to be an animator! Go through it all and you might become a respected director.

Yes, it is still possible to be richer being a freelance animator than a salaryman. If you are superman and can pump out twenty feet a day, that is.

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian

Actually, if I remember correctly, Shuffle has some scene complaining about the poor treatment animators get (in Engrish, noticed by me ). Kagihime also has some scenes with engrish complaining about studio "selling out" (noticed by NoSanninwa).

I must have missed that one in Shuffle, I don't recall but am interested.


One thing's for sure though. I have yet to meet someone who dislikes animation or comics. Practically everyone is a long-time anime, animation, comics, manga, american cartoon fan....except the CEO and CFO. Got a question about a comic-book? Or video-game? Someone in the studio is bound to be the expert. And we all otherwise love what we do. Last year the studio manager was complaining about a certain compositor with a bad work ethic. Said person ranted about how the whole animation industry is a pile of shiet and how he's going to get out and do something worthwhile with his life. Fast forward a year later and I see him back in the studio. -"I'm in it just for the money." - Yeah, right.

The lifestyle is similar to the other often outsourced industry--call-centers. Except that the attrition rate in call centers is high---turnover around 2 years. Me, I lasted but one year. Apart from the fresh trainees, the veterans here have over 10 years of experience and have credits ranging from Scooby-doo to Atlantis. It's just up to the next generation for replacements, who have degrees ranging from Fine Arts majoring in Advertising to Computer Engineering. They have at least one crazy inductee in me and though I do not have the artistic talent (yet), I've decided to stick through with this industry, though companies may rise and fall. It's a small country anyway, so the talent pool is the same people. Heck, even the studio manager rose from a lowly production assistant, whereas most people would head for greener pastures. That's something I respect about those I work with.

[Crimen Scythe]

Ive been wondering...does a mangaka make more money than a gengaka?

[Prodigious]

This reminds me of the one episode in Excel Saga where Excel and Hyatt meat Sandora in America and he's talking about how he wants to be an animator in Japan and how he'll make tons of money and every animator is well respected and whatever, and they were just like "uh..."

[wao]

Say kj1980, you said that genga-men make really low wages, so what about those doing colouring (shiage), composite (satsuei), background art (haikyo) .... or even lower (I presume lower) still......... in-between aimation (douga)?

Do the people doing those (well maybe except satsuei and haikyo) get paid a complete pittance and like, live off 2-3 jobs or something?

DaFool: I'm surprised that Phillipine animation studios have assisted in the production of anime...

Sometimes shows alter between showing the names of chinese/korean animators in english or in Kanji I've seen rare cases where they do the korean ones in korean, IIRC Macross Zero did this. Actually I wonder if Shoji Kawamori has an affinity with korean studios, Zero was a collaboration with Tin House (Korean studio that did this flashy film as well...), and in Aquarion there were entire episodes done entirely by Koreans (Key animation, inbetween, colouring, background, composite, heck even the animation director and episode director - all Koreans!)

There's this one chinese background art studio 风动画 something-something (Feng Dong Hua, it's listed on ANN as Kaze Animation), they frequently collaborate with this Japanese background art studio, GREEN... They always get the names listed there in full every time, be it in kanji or in English. See Mushishi and Eureka 7.

[Eclipze]

I guess this is a related question: Singers and VAs get it that bad as well? (in terms of salary).

For popularity at least, I've heard of how TM revolution was once in the top 10 charts, and then fell off top 10 because of their relation to anime (Singing OP/ED and inserts for Gundam Seed/Destiny).

[SlugZilla]

Originally Posted by Crimen Scythe

Ive been wondering...does a mangaka make more money than a gengaka?

Mangaka potentially can make much more than animator but it's harder to become a mangaka and be successful. The biggest difference between those two is ownership. No matter how successful the anime you animated becomes, an animator will still be just an animator. But if a manga becomes successful and sells a lot the mangaka becomes famous and you are almost guaranteed to be set for life, but even that is a like dream come true. Even if a mangaka by chance makes less than an animator I still think it's better being a mangaka since you have control over your work and get to use your own ideas and imagination. The animator has no control over anything, he/she is just a tool in a sense. As a mangaka you are the boss of yourself. The workload is probably as much as an animator but they get to work at home at the very least.

[wao]

Yeah, the thing is with manga you can license out rights to TV shows and anime and whatnot if your manga is successful, but for animators it's pretty damn difficult unless you become an animation director or something Higher Up.

Although mangaka aren't entirely bosses of themselves, they have to answer to the publishing company don't they... and the publishing company takes a good % of their profits too I suppose. It's they who typically coordinate any anime/tv/live-action/movie/whatever rights isn't it? Thoguh sometimes the mangaka can get involved in the work itself (like Ai Yazawa in Gokinjo Monogatari and CLAMP in the upcoming XXXHoLiC tv series).

[Ending]

Don't expect to get big salaries from following; real businessmen find their own way and their own company. That is what the original CEO did and what you should do if you dream of success. Sure, you have to compete, but that's just the point of it; the resharing of wealth by grasping it from your enemies. It's the same thing in all industries and, sadly, many people much rather work for below-minimum wage than find their own way. Or even participate to what could be a promising entrepreneurship.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by wao

Say kj1980, you said that genga-men make really low wages, so what about those doing colouring (shiage), composite (satsuei), background art (haikyo) .... or even lower (I presume lower) still......... in-between aimation (douga)?

Yes, since they are still at the lower end of the spectrum.

I guess this is a related question: Singers and VAs get it that bad as well? (in terms of salary).

For popularity at least, I've heard of how TM revolution was once in the top 10 charts, and then fell off top 10 because of their relation to anime (Singing OP/ED and inserts for Gundam Seed/Destiny).

Seiyuus are paid around 2,000-3,000 yen per episode. That means, even if you have one line or hundred of lines, you are still paid the same amount. Almost every seiyuu that is tied to a talent agency is paid around that price. Once you are famous enough to make out on your own (like oneechan), you are your own boss so you can haggle your own price. A good example of how poor seiyuus are can be best exemplified from YuriC's (Ochiai Yurika) personal blog - that she didn't have enough money to pay the electric bill so her electricity was cut off, she almost had her mobile phone disconnected because she couldn't pay that bill, etc. etc.

So in order to make a living as a seiyuu - they attend as many auditions as they can so that they can be selected to appear in almost every episode for at least two or three titles per season (ala Tamura Yukari).

Singers are different. Their income mainly comes from revenues from CD sales. The difference between seiyuus that sings and real singers is exactly just that - seiyuus rarely ever see a single yen from royalties from their CDs, whereas real singers reap in huge royalties.

[Ending]

--whereas real singers reap in huge royalties.

Relative. If 80% of a million goes the the publishing company, is it still a big sum when compared to the sharing per cent? If a seiyuu got a 50/50 deal and his product would suddenly become a worldwide success, he would relatively earn more than a singer with a 80/20 ratio.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Wirhe

Relative. If 80% of a million goes the the publishing company, is it still a big sum when compared to the sharing per cent? If a seiyuu got a 50/50 deal and his product would suddenly become a worldwide success, he would relatively earn more than a singer with a 80/20 ratio.

Seiyuu receives little to nothing when she sings. The deal is between the talent agency in which the seiyuu resides and the record company. Not the seiyuu him/herself.

Perhaps I should clarify this so people don't make the idea that seiyuus are stars.

No, they are just corporate workers who have a job at a talent agency. Their main job is to provide voice acting service for the company. The more they do, the more money companies make with deals.

Let me put it this way: a worker creates a new taste for Coca-Cola, and it becomes successful. Does that worker see a share of the profit? Most likely not. He/she will probably get a raise or a promotion, but he'll never see the millions of the profit which is shared by the board members.

Besides, the main royalties goes to people who writes the lyrics and makes the music - not the singer. So, if you look carefully at the credits, it reads:

Lyrics by:
Music by:
Sung by:

Lyrics gets royalties because the lyrics to the song is published. If it is used in karaoke machines, then licensing costs margins goes to the person who wrote the lyrics. Same holds true for the original music. The singer? He/she just sings to the written lyrics and the music. Practically anyone can do that if they have a nice voice, so little money goes to them.

Hence, what I meant by "real artists" are the ones who actually does the lyrics, music, and the singing all together. Not many seiyuus can do this - if they did, they wouldn't be stuck in a job as a seiyuu.

The run-down:

Talent agency calls up their seiyuu to sing.
The lyrics and music are already made by the record company.
The girl sings to the lyrics and the music. She is paid a stipend for doing that.
The song is an instantaneous hit (to otakus).
The royalties goes to: the talent agency (which provided the singer) and the record company (which provided the lyrics and the music)
What did the seiyuu receive? The stipend only.

So what if the seiyuu gets pissed off for not receiving more? The talent agency can just say: hey, the hell with you, we have other seiyuus that can do your job. Want to go off on your own? Tough luck finding auditions and the jobs that you can only get through our connections.

Hence, that is what I meant by "more experienced and older seiyuus" that have the connections that can make off on their own. The rest (and the majority) of all seiyuu are bounded to their talent agency.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by kj1980

So in order to make a living as a seiyuu - they attend as many auditions as they can so that they can be selected to appear in almost every episode for at least two or three titles per season (ala Tamura Yukari).

Singers are different. Their income mainly comes from revenues from CD sales. The difference between seiyuus that sings and real singers is exactly just that - seiyuus rarely ever see a single yen from royalties from their CDs, whereas real singers reap in huge royalties.

Thanks for the information kj1980.

But a continuation...what about people/groups like T.M. Revolution (who, I presume, were *normal* singers in the past, and got related to anime later on). Which category do they belong in? I mean, I would think that someone T.M. Revolution was once a big name in the Japanese music popularity charts (some other Asuki member mentioned this, not too sure about its reliability). But I also heard that because T.M. Revolution got involved in animes, that his popularity dropped drasticly.

Not just the popularity, what about the revenue? Do they still get most of it from their own CD sales (considering how they once depended entirely on it), or completely on doing OP/ED and some voice acting?

[wao]

What I heard was that TM Revolution got asked to do anime songs because his popularity was dropping and he wasn't seen as some big-artist-who-could-not-be-tarnished-with-a-tie-up... yet he would be profitable enough for the anime because he was well-known anyway.

Possibly could be the same scenario with Hyde (Blood+) and L'arc~en~ciel (FMA)

On an unrelated note I found out some time ago something interesting - now I know why in Rurouni Kenshin they had changed the ED to Fourth Avenue Cafe by Laraku, but after a short time they suddenly changed the song back to Heart of Sword, the previous ED, but still with this new ED's visuals. They took the song out because one of the band members at the time was arrested for a drug-related offense and their songs were taken out from everywhere, including anime.

I think singers like TMR will still get their revenue from singing mostly, I don't think he's been "condemned" to do only anime songs from now on... he's presumedly got all that money from his previous successes too .

[SlugZilla]

TM Revo's Nishikawa is a host on a music show and he's even done voice acting on top of his successful singing career so he is one of the last people to worry about his waning popularity of his music. I think it's natural if once successful artists go and do anime songs later in their career but it's really tough for artists starting their career on anime songs like Hitomi Takahashi and Tamaki Nami because they get a permanent reputation for being anime singers.

[spirits having flown]

Now what about seiyuus lending their voices in video games (even the ero-games) or appearing in concerts, expos, and other miscellaneous events, how much are they paid? Also, who is currently the highest paid seiyuu?

I almost forgot, can seiyuus be invited in private functions?

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Thanks for the information kj1980.

But a continuation...what about people/groups like T.M. Revolution (who, I presume, were *normal* singers in the past, and got related to anime later on). Which category do they belong in? I mean, I would think that someone T.M. Revolution was once a big name in the Japanese music popularity charts (some other Asuki member mentioned this, not too sure about its reliability). But I also heard that because T.M. Revolution got involved in animes, that his popularity dropped drasticly.

Not just the popularity, what about the revenue? Do they still get most of it from their own CD sales (considering how they once depended entirely on it), or completely on doing OP/ED and some voice acting?

Re-read the post before you.

Revenue wise, It all comes down to:

Does the person sing as well as writes his own lyrics and music?

That's where the main difference in royalties come from.

I'm not an avid fan of T.M. Revolution, never was and never will be. So I am not going to go through the trouble of even looking at his CDs at my local shop to find if he writes the lyrics and music to his songs. But since most major label artists at least may write his or her own lyrics, he'll probably see some better income than a seiyuu who just lends her singing voice. But then again, I'm not going to check the credits on his CDs, so someone else can verify that for me.

Now the real artists, like L'Arc~en~Ciel whose band members writes their own music and lyrics, they get lots of money, I assure you that. Of course, I'm certain their income gets screwed by the government in forms of taxes though.

Originally Posted by spirits having flown

Now what about seiyuus lending their voices in video games (even the ero-games) or appearing in concerts, expos, and other miscellaneous events, how much are they paid? Also, who is currently the highest paid seiyuu?

I almost forgot, can seiyuus be invited in private functions?

1. "In the light" seiyuus that does voice acting for "in the light" games gets paid a modest amount. I'm not certain of the details as that is usually a haggling price between the game makers and the talent agency.

2. As for "in the dark" seiyuus who uses pseudonyms or who cannot get roles for "in the light" (sadly, majority of newly seiyuu graduates succumb to such roles) have no choice but to lend their voices for ero-games or ero-anime. They are usually paid quite low. But then again, that is not to say there are horrible seiyuus in the ero-game industry. In fact, there are many great seiyuus that are unfortunately "in the dark." However, lately many previously "in the dark" seiyuus have come "into the light" with high popularity of the originally ero-game based-turned anime. The opposite also holds true: many "in the light" seiyuus lend their own voices (with pseudonyms) for "in the dark" ero-game industry in order to make a living.

3. In either case, whether you are popular or not, whether you have concerts or expos, seiyuus are not paid that well. Only a few, a very select few make money whose ranges are of several ten thousand yens per episode.

4. Who makes the most money? The true veterans. No, not even Inoue Kikuko or Hayashibara Megumi. I'm talking about legendary people in their late fifties, sixties, and in their seventies. The people who do (did) voices for Doraemon and Sazae-san. People who did the majority of kids' shows back in the 70s and 80s. They are the ones in which the a large portion of the Japanese populace grew up listening to by watching "World Masterpiece Theater." Basically, the legends who current big-name seiyuus learned their skills from - people who even to them are untouchables. But even then, the top earning seiyuu legends like Kamiya Akira get paid an only a 10~50,000 yen per episode.

5. If you have the connections and if it is best for both interests. What? The average joe otaku calling a seiyuu for his birthday party? Yeah sure whatever. If it's an industry event where a big-shot scenario writer is has a excessive drinking party and if the talent agency sees that as a chance to sell their seiyuus by introducing them to him, hell yes.

Seriously, the anime industry is not all glitz and glory. It's just like any other entertainment industry. Lots of shit goes on in the back, that will make your head spin - wishing you never knew what goes behind their facade of cute smiles and moe~ voices. Trust me, don't stick your head in any further and keep your dream as your dream. Once you know the reality, it's basically like any other industry filled with sex, power, money, and back dealings.

[kujoe]

Here's something I've been wondering about.

Just how much power does a manga editor have over the mangaka? Let's say that this oh, mangaka is in the middle of doing a popular manga series... So how big a role does an editor's "advice" affect the mangaka's intentions with regard to the story?

I'm thinking along the lines of:

editor: "Hey, this character is very popular right now. Put him/her in a new story arc, etc. etc."
mangaka: "Um, okay. Sure."

There's a chapter from Genshiken which dealt with this—if I'm not mistaken—but I was wondering just how significant this reality is and also, if this is common for all authors. For instance, can they actually convince the mangaka to change the outcome of his or her intended story?

[zalas]

Well, the rumor is that X is on hiatus because CLAMP doesn't agree with Kadokawa about how the ending should be written, so I guess both sides play a big role in determining how the story progresses.