Code Geass Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[saner]

This episode was quite annoying, because Lelouch is the main character and his actions are the most interesting, but we see more and more about his friend.

It is fairly borring seeing the third time when Lelouch went easy on Suzaku. He is his friend but is he retarded?

Only four episodes left and I don't see clear resolution to the whole story. I have to admit that Suzaku's feelings and thoughts were clarified, but Lelouch is still in mess. He doesn't know where he stands. I wonder which girl will help him Most likely C.C. since she has got his own problems.

Does anyone have any good reasons why Lelouch saved Suzaku? For me it was just to improve action nothing more.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by saner

This episode was quite annoying, because Lelouch is the main character and his actions are the most interesting, but we see more and more about his friend.

It is fairly borring seeing the third time when Lelouch went easy on Suzaku. He is his friend but is he retarded?

Only four episodes left and I don't see clear resolution to the whole story. I have to admit that Suzaku's feelings and thoughts were clarified, but Lelouch is still in mess. He doesn't know where he stands. I wonder which girl will help him Most likely C.C. since she has got his own problems.

Does anyone have any good reasons why Lelouch saved Suzaku? For me it was just to improve action nothing more.

-this is only season 1. no need to worry about time limits quite yet. :3
-if Lelouch just killed Suzaku, there wouldn't be any drama=GSD kira lameness. :\

-Lelouch basically saves Suzaku because it's becoming increasingly clear he still has a heart. that's going to screw him...badly...and no doubt very soon.
-anyway, I suspect this will be the last of the "Lelouch isn't the protagonist" episodes (other two being Suzaku taking the lead in 5, and Kallen in 9, vs. Euphie in this one). it's Lelouch in the drivers seat of horrible suffering from now on, so no need to worry....err, kinda.

[Juvyniled]

There's a second season.

Originally Posted by saner

Does anyone have any good reasons why Lelouch saved Suzaku?

Probably not good reasons, but mostly pity and their friendship. Both of them grew up without much other friends because of their statuses (royalty) and so they formed a close relationship. Not to mention his sister loves him, and he feels that Suzaku is a good friend, with the exception that he has changed. Personally, Lelouch has no reason whatsoever to keep him alive; Suzaku is a huge obstacle to his goals and it would resolve things if he were out of the way. But he has at the very least a conscience (even if he is practically the angel of destruction).

I have to admit that Suzaku's feelings and thoughts were clarified, but Lelouch is still in mess. He doesn't know where he stands. I wonder which girl will help him Most likely C.C. since she has got his own problems.

C.C.'s a she/he now? O_O;
I don't think that Lelouch is in a mess; he simply wants many things to go his way and that is causing him to have problems.

This episode was quite annoying, because Lelouch is the main character and his actions are the most interesting, but we see more and more about his friend.

I'm sure for you it would be more interesting just to see mecha destroy things, but this is one of those series that isn't just into mindless death and destruction. And good riddens for that. I'll agree with you that Lelouch's actions are more interesting than Suzaku's (anything is better than a collection of speeches), but it's even more interesting to watch how Lelouch responds to various conflicts (not just physical but psychological as well).

And initially, I felt that this was going to be Lelouch's show as well, but it's beginning to even out. However, the focus is still on Lelouch and his Order; the other characters need screen time for development and we the viewers need to be informed of what's going on both sides of the war.

[quina]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Would you care to share you opinion on why you thought the episode was crap. I could deal with opinion if you at least offered some explanation

I am not him, but I think I probably can explain why I think its crap... or at least nowhere near as good as other episodes.

This episode is Euphie Centered
well.. having a story center on girls is nice, however this episode is litterally refering to her thought of being weak and such, I hate hearing girls bashing herself especially if its the character I have no interest in.

I personally finds her conversation with Nina a waste of time, but before you go boozoo on me here, let me explain why I think its a waste of time.

Firstly the conversation is lame. I know its for plot development, but hello... how many times have you hear this dialogue where you have 2 girls who hate herself talking to one another.. but I have seen plenty...

Secondly the fact that Euphie just REALIZED~ her true feeling when Nina mentioned Susaku name is just weird, but worse she ran off and do a confession over a radio communication. It was out of nowhere, and it doesn't flow. You will really get what I mean if the translation is out.

The lameness doesn't end there. Suddenly when Susaku is about to die, Our hero comes and save the day. They both "co-operate" (race) with one another and finally punish the bad guys army. hmmm I can't think of other way to described this other than its lame...

Where is Lulu's determination in this?
One of the reason I enjoy CG is that, it sticks to the point. This episode totally takes us out there. I know Euphie is his sis and Susaku is his friend... but do they really need the whole episode for this? Given that we are squeezing materials in other episode like hell (eg. ep17+), why do we bother having this episode... There is a tiny bit of Lulu declaring his true aim, but the hell.... it even seems like they put in this fake japan army just to have Euphie and Susaku confess to one another and nothing to do with anything else...

Main points of this episode
yep, this is the main point of this episode... the reason why I believe they have to put this episode on..

- To compensate Susaku x Euphie, since they don't have enough of each other
- To show flying lancelot
- To show CC flight suit. (which is like 2 sec)

See the list, you can totally cut this episode out!! or just merge it into other episode.. compare to other episode I consider this episode a total filler, that's why its bad.

Side note: You suppose to ignore whats said below here, its just sub conscious feeling that shouldn't be discussed.

Spoiler:

I know ppl hate GDS reference, but heck I hate Lacus and Kira. Anything that looks like them create an initual negative value of viewing experience. This episode totally push the bound. They air susaku x Euphie almost 100% of the time... go away~ air more CC!

[saner]

Will there be more seasons?

Yeah, I hope Lelouch will suffer. I can't stand him, he is the most idealistic person in the whole seires. It was said that Suzaku was the most rightous person, but he just wanted to forget about the past.

Lelouch dosen't have enough power to defeat Britain, if there won't be more than 24 episodes he will be killed shortly.

I don't see any difference in relationship between Lelouch and Suzaku. Lelouch still won't kill him. Suzaku will try to kill Lelouch in spite of the fact that he was saved by him coutless time. At last his Lancelot isn't invincible (thanks to new model of mechs) so his character won't play so important part in the show. It was very stupid when he all alone defeated everyone.

[Juvyniled]

I don't really believe this episode is as simple as having extra visuals.

They've introduced another factor to the war: the Chinese Federation. There have only been sparse mentions of their nation and now we see that they are not sitting idly by. I doubt this is the last mention of the Chinese, and there could potentially be more characters waiting for us in the second season.

I'll agree, I can't seem to rationalize the whole revelation of Euphemia's feelings and how she spontaneously revealed those feelings to Suzaku. The timing is really off as well (although it typically happens in romances where the 'hero' is about to die, or the hero and his lover are about to die).

Originally Posted by quina

Suddenly when Susaku is about to die, Our hero comes and save the day. They both "co-operate" (race) with one another and finally punish the bad guys army. hmmm I can't think of other way to described this other than its lame...

Teamwork is lame But I believe this is their (the director's) way of easing us into the second season, or save up something juicy for the final episodes. We're getting to a rather mild temperament where the two key players (as of right now) aren't battling each other. Think of how momentous it would be if something major (I don't want to offer speculation, I just want to wait for it ) were to happen to possibly ruin that peace.

I'm beginning to see that people are expressing their disdain for Euphemia and Suzaku's increasing screen time (though it seems to Suzaku's screen time that is causing issues). That is probably why people can still appreciate the episode where Arthur steals Lelouch's mask in that episode (number I can't recall).

Originally Posted by saner

Yeah, I hope Lelouch will suffer. I can't stand him, he is the most idealistic person in the whole seires. It was said that Suzaku was the most rightous person, but he just wanted to forget about the past.

He isn't entirely idealistic; that is primarily his personal thoughts and expectations for the future. But even his actions dictate otherwise sometimes. Suzaku IS in fact righteous, and that is irritating.

Lelouch dosen't have enough power to defeat Britain, if there won't be more than 24 episodes he will be killed shortly.

Geass is much more than enough power, but even Lelouch restrains himself from doing unnecessary things (ie, killing people outright unless he has to). I wouldn't want this series to draw itself out like Bleach or Naruto, otherwise we'd end up with NOTHING but fillers.

[Sotobrastos]

I'm hoping that Lelouch's plan to establish his own state in Tokyo falls apart. I love his character, but to make Japan the 'heard of the world' seems a bit too much like nationalistic wankage. I'd love for him to eventually move on out of Japan, taking some components of the Black Knights (mainly Kallen--everyone else can crawl into a hole and die, except for Ougi, who'll crawl in there with Villeta and make mad love), and wage war on Britannia, CF, and the EU. Epic, and ultimately hopeless. Tragic endings ftw.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Would you care to share you opinion on why you thought the episode was crap. I could deal with opinion if you at least offered some explanation

Well he can't offer what's not there, can he?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by saner

Will there be more seasons?

Yeah, I hope Lelouch will suffer. I can't stand him, he is the most idealistic person in the whole seires. It was said that Suzaku was the most rightous person, but he just wanted to forget about the past.

Lelouch dosen't have enough power to defeat Britain, if there won't be more than 24 episodes he will be killed shortly.

I don't see any difference in relationship between Lelouch and Suzaku. Lelouch still won't kill him. Suzaku will try to kill Lelouch in spite of the fact that he was saved by him coutless time. At last his Lancelot isn't invincible (thanks to new model of mechs) so his character won't play so important part in the show. It was very stupid when he all alone defeated everyone.

I don't particularly agree with your reasons for wanting Lelouch to suffer. Lelouch should suffer because it's interesting to the story if he does. things are plain uninteresting if the main character easily suceeds at everything he does. but if you kill the protaongist, what happens then? the story is at an end, and that's even less interesting.

and as for Suzaku being able to beat everyone, the protagonists side always has to have military power less than or equal to the antagonists. this is why Schniezel's knights are coming into the story soon. with only Suzaku as a face early in the season, it made sense he would be able to beat everyone on Lelouch's side. of course, once Cornelia showed up, he became defeatable. (Kallen and her Guren) it's just the way things go.

[Juvyniled]

We already know Suzaku has put himself into a hole... but so has Lelouch.

Lelouch's goal is to topple his father's empire, but the people that he has sided with can only take him so far. He had to convince them that he would help them achieve autonomy for their nation, but as soon as he achieves that, he'll have to convince them more to keep them in his fight. No doubt though, his reputation will draw massive amounts of attention from nations that want to take down the Britannian empire (for safety and for their own power).

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

We already know Suzaku has put himself into a hole... but so has Lelouch.

Lelouch's goal is to topple his father's empire, but the people that he has sided with can only take him so far. He had to convince them that he would help them achieve autonomy for their nation, but as soon as he achieves that, he'll have to convince them more to keep them in his fight. No doubt though, his reputation will draw massive amounts of attention from nations that want to take down the Britannian empire (for safety and for their own power).

still, it's not like Britannia is just going to forget about Japan.

the second the Chinese seized Kyuushuu under the name of 'Japan', what did Britannia do? they went right in there to destroy the Chinese forces and eliminate/capture Sawasaki. even if Cornelia/Schniezel suffers a defeat, it's not like the dozen+ other royal family members aren't going to come after them, or Wakamoto's own forces. convincing the Order/Japan to keep fighting will probably be easier than you think: probably only an episode's worth of indecision and political maneuvering.

[Chaos2Frozen]

I wont say I want him to 'suffer', but rather 'struggle' is a better word.

Yeah, I hope Lelouch will suffer. I can't stand him, he is the most idealistic person in the whole seires. It was said that Suzaku was the most rightous person, but he just wanted to forget about the past.

Idealistic how? So far his plan seems to be working. And people didn't say Suzaku is the 'most rightous', they say he's the most delusional.

Lelouch dosen't have enough power to defeat Britain, if there won't be more than 24 episodes he will be killed shortly.

Did you expect him to magically gain an army of Knightmares? Of course he has to slowly build up his forces!

Suzaku will try to kill Lelouch in spite of the fact that he was saved by him coutless time.

You make it sound as if Suzaku knows who Zero is. To him, Zero is a criminal, but he might not be so willing to pull the trigger if he knows it's Lelouch.

The difference in their relationship now is the Lelouch KNOWS that's Suzaku he's fighting against, certain scenes might become awkward without Suzaku even knowing it.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by ashlay

still, it's not like Britannia is just going to forget about Japan.

I'm confoosed -_-;

I was originally responding to this statement:

Originally Posted by Sotobrastos

I'd love for him to eventually move on out of Japan, taking some components of the Black Knights

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You make it sound as if Suzaku knows who Zero is. To him, Zero is a criminal, but he might not be so willing to pull the trigger if he knows it's Lelouch.

The difference in their relationship now is the Lelouch KNOWS that's Suzaku he's fighting against, certain scenes might become awkward without Suzaku even knowing it.

Huge point that many people overlook. And even though Suzaku doesn't know, he's had several occasions where he could pull the trigger himself and did not do so (yet he was able to kill his father with somewhat more ease).

[Chaos2Frozen]

@Juvyniled
But honestly though, how could anyone who have watched this NOT know that Suzaku STILL doesn't know who Zero is? And to think they could act all high-and-mighty...

Actually, I'm starting to think that Suzaku doesn't have the intention of killing Zero. Sure he has no problem beating him up silly, but to shoot him himself?

Of course, it's different during episode 18 where he held him hostage, but that was because he was ordered to, and unlike episode 1 to him Zero is a murderer so he won't feel too guilty about it.

As for why he could kill his father (though I won't call it 'with ease'), well it was a long time ago when he was young, so alot of things probably wouldn't occur to him.

[Juvyniled]

Suzaku is ignorant to say the least. He wasn't given the gift of insight for good reasons albeit, as Lelouch wasn't given agility or strength. But even I in his position can't possibly draw the conclusion that Zero is Lelouch. We can see that connection, therefore, we might assume that we can easily identify Zero as Lelouch, but in 'reality', the Lelouch he knows is a calm and supportive friend. And I suppose it should have been rather clear by the time that Lelouch mentioned Prime Minister Kururugi's murder, but Suzaku is still too enraptured with his father's murder (why oh why?).

I don't know what the hell is wrong with Suzaku but I can understand why Lelouch won't kill Suzaku. I suppose Suzaku doesn't see Zero as a figurehead of the rebellion (even if the title is ironically then Lelouch of the Rebellion).

Suzaku is more of a fool now than he was at a kid. At least back then, he could see the consequences easily - submission or defeat. Now, everything's just a puzzle.

[ashlay]

Actually, I'm starting to think that Suzaku doesn't have the intention of killing Zero. Sure he has no problem beating him up silly, but to shoot him himself?

Of course, it's different during episode 18 where he held him hostage, but that was because he was ordered to, and unlike episode 1 to him Zero is a murderer so he won't feel too guilty about it.

I think it was pretty clear that Suzaku was ordered to make sure Zero died. but of course he's not goin to do something like shooting him at point blank range.

in the end, Suzaku probably can't kill Zero because he equates Zero with his father. and so this time he's going to "do the right thing" by capturing Zero for trial instead of killing, like what he did with genbu.


anyway, Suzaku seemed a little less high and mighty this week, so we're probably going to need another death or something soon to drive Suzaku into crazy hate land again. (maybe Lelouch too)

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by ashlay

...anyway, Suzaku seemed a little less high and mighty this week...

Exactly, that's why for once I didn't feel like choking Suzaku! That by itself makes the episode amazing!

...Well, that as well as Lelouch and C.C sitting in the cockpit, K-I-....

[Juvyniled]

...Well, that as well as Lelouch and C.C sitting in the cockpit, K-I-....

LOL. Gawain gives them all the privacy they want. ^_^;

[tritoch]

China and Britannia definitively resemble a cold war stance. I get the feeling if they went to all out war nothing would survive. Too me its a like a chess game just on globule scale. I think China sees an opportunity in Japan due to Zero recent successes over Britannia. Just because they beaten once does not mean they wont stop testing the waters. Crush the head of the snake first! then you dont have worry about it bite

If Brittania is based in the US, like the first episode intro where Brittania invades Japan, China might need to secure Japan first in order for it to effectively use the Pacific as the invasion route to Brittania.

[wuabel]

I think this episode is a bit too hasty...
I hope they will slow down the pace a bit, I don't want another GSD ending all over again -.-

I quite like the character development of Lulu, Suzaku and Euphie...so far they are reasonable realistic.
If only they let the events take some time to sink in, the episode would deliever more impacts.

Also, for the next episode, I will cry for Orange-kun. *Sighs* poor bastard.