Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Matts]

They've known about the majority of the crap Roid was doing from at least the middle of the series. Not a single person stood up to him. No one. The most we got were Cassim and Herman going mumblemumble but proceeding to go out and do Roid's bidding anyway.

[Convoy]

Elite soldiers my ass. Since when has being blind to your superior's machinations been the hallmark of honorable knight conduct?

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They didn't come around. They just didn't like Roid doing unto them as they'd done to the rest of the Cluster. That's very different. None of the Windemereans, from Heinz on down, repented for the war they started, the atrocities they committed.

They switched sides, they changed their mind, they stopped doing what they were doing before. That's what I mean by coming around.
Yes they should have done way more to repent, though I'm not sure what else they could have done at the moment given how little screen time they received after the war. Reparations take years.

@Triple_R
Yup, Keith doing the deed (and dying for it) seems to be a step in the right direction. Though we'll probably never know.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

"I have no basis for an argument so I'll just insult the other person."
Bu-bye!

You are aware how much of an asshole you are being here, right?

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You are aware how much of an asshole you are being here, right?

Yeah, I suppose my reply to BetoJR was a bit much.

[Matts]

lol that is a response to prompting people to post and repost page upon page of arguments either based on source material like Macross Chronicles or just, y'know, the TV series.
BUT OKIBYE
<<;

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Yeah, I suppose my reply to BetoJR was a bit much.

Quite so. But, okay, you noticed. That's worth a ton.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

They switched sides, they changed their mind,

They didn't do any of that. Their circumstances changed, that's all. And they only stopped doing what they were doing because they lost the ability to do it.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They didn't do any of that. Their circumstances changed, that's all. And they only stopped doing what they were doing because they lost the ability to do it.

Keith could have chosen not to kill Roid. Bogue could have chosen to let Makina and Reina die, and Heinz could have convinced his knights to keep fighting for him.
By all means, this barely scratches the surface of what Windermere has to do to redeem themselves. But based on their actions in the last episode, I believe Windermere has begun to empathize with their enemies. Them coming around does not solely have to do with Roid's betrayal but that they're starting to like their enemies and not want to kill them. Well, this is my interpretation.

[magnuskn]

I disagree. For me, it seemed to be all about "honor" "wind" and just following the orders of Heinz (which everybody on Windermere but Roid has done at all times, even Bogue). Redemption is something else to me.

[SleepingTerror]

Basically the main reason I don't want to defend Windermere anymore, the writing was too vague, left out a lot, and as a result, half of my defense relies on personal interpretation.
So I'd rather call out attention to NUNS' mistakes, and argue that both are in need of drastic change.

[Father Hentai]

Keith said to go against Roid (his friend) if he would not serve the wind. The wind changed in episode 26. First, when Heinz realizes the burden of a leader. The second, when Heinz ordered his knights to fight against Roid.

If Keith and the Knights may have not changed, at least their king did. And that's more to know for soldieres like the Knights. But even Bogue started to change because he saved Makina and Reina.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They didn't do any of that. Their circumstances changed, that's all. And they only stopped doing what they were doing because they lost the ability to do it.

Actually they stopped because Heinz already had the intention to do peace talks.

Originally Posted by Convoy

Elite soldiers my ass. Since when has being blind to your superior's machinations been the hallmark of honorable knight conduct?

Have you served military duty to know the correct answer?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

So I'd rather call out attention to NUNS' mistakes, and argue that both are in need of drastic change.

The problem with that is that NUNS is, by choice, a decentralized organization, which makes it possible for rogue elements like the Starwind Cluster NUNS militia, to exist.

As others pointed out, NUNS decided to decentralize because they couldn't effectively administer all the colonization fleets and planets which had spread throughout the entire galaxy.

It's an imperfect system, but much better than having a grasping bureaucracy centralized on Earth, which can't effectively govern star systems half a galaxy away anyway. Also, having a centralized organization would have a much higher potential of a corrupt government taking over and fucking it up for everyone.

One thing I want to challenge the NUNS detractors on: Aside from their beef with Windermere (which I'd say was at least 50% Windermeres fault to begin with for being xenophobic racial supremacists who can't play well with others), they seem to have generally done well with the other systems of the star cluster. Voldorians, Ragnans and Al-Shahallans (and whomever the bat-ear people are) seemed to have integrated just fine with NUNS, although there was the one half-hearted complaint Chuck had later in the show about them being bossy.

How does that fit into your "NUNS is the eeeeevils!" overarching hypothesis?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The problem with that is that NUNS is, by choice, a decentralized organization, which makes it possible for rogue elements like the Starwind Cluster NUNS militia, to exist.

As others pointed out, NUNS decided to decentralize because they couldn't effectively administer all the colonization fleets and planets which had spread throughout the entire galaxy.

It's an imperfect system, but much better than having a grasping bureaucracy centralized on Earth, which can't effectively govern star systems half a galaxy away anyway. Also, having a centralized organization would have a much higher potential of a corrupt government taking over and fucking it up for everyone.

One thing I want to challenge the NUNS detractors on: Aside from their beef with Windermere (which I'd say was at least 50% Windermeres fault to begin with for being xenophobic racial supremacists who can't play well with others), they seem to have generally done well with the other systems of the star cluster. Voldorians, Ragnans and Al-Shahallans (and whomever the bat-ear people are) seemed to have integrated just fine with NUNS, although there was the one half-hearted complaint Chuck had later in the show about them being bossy.

How does that fit into your "NUNS is the eeeeevils!" overarching hypothesis?

It doesn't matter if they are decentralized or not. They have the same Brand, they share the same responsibility. Look at NUN as a big group with the holding on earth. each division share the same CI and CB. There is no excuse if one branch makes a mistake. It'S like VW. The US division screwed up bUT full responsibility has the holding in Wolfsburg.

And just one thing. When they figured out about the ruin being active on Ragna they were very quick with the decision to drop a bomb taking collateral damage into account.

But NUN is not xenophobe... not

[magnuskn]

Dude, they literally have every race in the galaxy in their ranks but Windermerans, because the Windbags chose to be isolationist. Really, NUNS is xenophobic? Man, your arguments suck. "Yeah, man, the UN is totally xenophobic, with them being the organization which literally is trying to unite Earth".

And, yes, NUNS needs to take care of rogue elements. Nobody is disputing that. But when they pop up, they don't represent the entire organizations mission.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I am fascinated that Windermere is so primitive, that they couldn't comprehend the idea of a mutual defence pact.

For them to complain that they had to go far away to fight rogue Zentradi fleets, they must not understand that this is the price they had to pay to get defended themselves. Windermere must be truly nonsensical to think they can get NUNs to defend them from threats but offer nothing in return. I am genuinely starting to think Windermere aren't evil, they are just really, really stupid.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

And just one thing. When they figured out about the ruin being active on Ragna they were very quick with the decision to drop a bomb taking collateral damage into account.

But NUN is not xenophobe... not

Really? they bombed the Ragnan Ruins because to their knowledge at that time the ruins were a very big advantage to Windermere and Ragna was the last planet they needed to conquer to have the whole cluster, Xaos voiced their concern and Lady M bought them more time, but Xaos failed to keep Windermere fleet out of Ragna, NUNS activated the bomb only when the Sigur Valens was literally on top of the ruins, I don't know about you but I'd call that a "last resort".

Yeah, the evacuation was badly handled, and NUNS came on very short notice and being very bossy, they are assholes yes, but Xenophobes? come on.

You are talking about the same organization that goes around the galaxy uplifting other civilizations, sharing technology, knowledge and their culture, it would be so easy for the NUNS to instead of doing that, just conquer said civilizations, they have the power and the numbers to do so, Windermere was in the middle age when NUNS arrived, Voldor and Ragna were a bit more advanced but nothing near the level of NUNS. If they were really xenophobes/racists do you think they would have left those 3 planets I mentioned govern themselves like they do? or let people of those races be in positions of power or join the NUNS as soldiers?

Now, remind me, which race started to invade other people's planets (that did nothing to them), mind-controling them not caring about collateral damage, and then when they were already under their control experimented on their population with no regard to what could happen to them?

But yeah, NUNS are totally evil and Xenophobes and racist, right?

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Dude, they literally have every race in the galaxy in their ranks but Windermerans, because the Windbags chose to be isolationist.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Windermereans enlisted in NUNS, considering how Windermere was occupied by NUNS for decades before they gained their independence.

[Tak]

I cannot quite comment on Wind right now since I am not done with the show, but knowing the NUN as well as I do, xenophobia is one thing they cannot be attributed to.

Lets forget about all the uplifting for a moment, but remember what the NUN is consisted of. This is an organization that is composed by two core races, the Zentradi and Humanity, with the former (pacified) outnumbering the latter by a minimum of 9:1. The lingua franca of the NUN is also not any of the human languages, but Zentran. Intermarriages are very common between the two peoples and many live in co-existence within the many thousands of colonial ships.

The NUN can be accused of a lot of things, but Xenophobia is not one of them. In fact, being Xenophobic is rather counterproductive for the NUN, and its something they simply cannot afford to be.

- Tak

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

One thing I want to challenge the NUNS detractors on: Aside from their beef with Windermere (which I'd say was at least 50% Windermeres fault to begin with for being xenophobic racial supremacists who can't play well with others), they seem to have generally done well with the other systems of the star cluster. Voldorians, Ragnans and Al-Shahallans (and whomever the bat-ear people are) seemed to have integrated just fine with NUNS, although there was the one half-hearted complaint Chuck had later in the show about them being bossy.

Like I said before, I don't blame everyone in NUNS. However, as an organization, they need to take responsibility. A streak of success can be be blotted by one failure, and since no one else is going to get rid of their corruption, they'll have to do it themselves. The fact remains is they (someone in their organization) made a terrible mistake, covered it up, and we'll never know who, but the others shouldn't stand idly by and let it happen. Silence is an action.
That percentage seems rather high but no matter.