Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Do you think that Freyja, Hayate and the crew of Chaos and Walküre would want that another war erupt?

What new war, man? I don't think anyone would advocate that.

But Windermere is done. Their capital ship was destroyed and, with it, their full ability to actually exploit the star singer and the VAR. What can they actually do, now? Other than capitulate and bank on the mercy they may get from being the actual victims of the bomb, seven years ago - oh, and invading their local cluster and... yeah, trying to enslave the whole galaxy, now?

Not very engrossing prospects, I'd say.

[magnuskn]

What say do Freyja, Hayate, Chaos or Walküre have on the international stage? None. They literally don't matter there.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

What new war, man? I don't think anyone would advocate that.

But Windermere is done. Their capital ship was destroyed and, with it, their full ability to actually exploit the star singer and the VAR. What can they actually do, now? Other than capitulate and bank on the mercy they may get from being the actual victims of the bomb, seven years ago - oh, and invading their local cluster and... yeah, trying to enslave the whole galaxy, now?

Not very engrossing prospects, I'd say.

The one who wanted to enslave the galaxy is dead.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

What say do Freyja, Hayate, Chaos or Walküre have on the international stage? None. They literally don't matter there.

It does matter, because Freyja is windermere and Hayates is the son of the man whoavoided bigger casualties by denying order from NUN. So yes, what they say literally matters, because they are symbolic figures on how humans and windermere should treat themselve after this incident and they are - along with chaos and walküre - the heroes of the Starwind sector.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

What say do Freyja, Hayate, Chaos or Walküre have on the international stage? None. They literally don't matter there.

That actually brings up one of the things that really bothers me about the show. Chaos for the most part just made things worse. Even the ending where Freyja breaks the mind control on Mikumo was only necessary because they had hand delivered the key to galactic domination to the bad guys.

So I think you could say that they do not matter at all not just that they are inconsequential on the international stage

[Convoy]

Y'know I wonder if Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage legally beat their execution since they did jump off the cliff, even if it was onto waiting fighters. After all, the Windermereans freely allow their wind religion into their government operations.

[Tak]

You know, the real winner to this war is Epsilon, and they have obviously succeeded as an organization since almost nobody talks about their responsibility.

Do keep in mind, Windermere probably wouldn't even dare bat an eyelash at the NUN if it was not for Epsilon.

- Tak

[Matts]

Yeah but they backed off, even if pretty late in the game. They even sort of helped Chaos. Even the windbags who realized something was off decided to not do anything and help Roid carry out his batshit. Does it absolve Epsilon of anything, of course not. But it further shows how... minbogling the winds were. No remorse or concern. No introspection. No effort to question authority. Nothing. And that's scary.

[Tak]

Don't get me wrong. As far as an opposition goes, Windermere is on the bottom of the food chain imo, and not exceptionally bright.

On the other hand, Epsilon is heavily implied to be the remnants of the anti-UN organization from Macross Zero who are just too happy to oppose the NUN via anyone, and Windermere simply took the bait. Of course Epsilon had to back off at the end, because it was against their interest if Roid succeeded. Though compared to NUN and Winderemere, Epsilon lost next to nothing, and they will just supply the next willing client to oppose the NUN once more.

But as I said before, a NUN dictated peace is among the least of Windermere's worries right now.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Don't get me wrong. As far as an opposition goes, Windermere is on the bottom of the food chain imo, and not exceptionally bright.

On the other hand, Epsilon is heavily implied to be the remnants of the anti-UN organization from Macross Zero who are just too happy to oppose the NUN via anyone, and Windermere simply took the bait. Of course Epsilon had to back off at the end, because it was against their interest if Roid succeeded. Though compared to NUN and Winderemere, Epsilon lost next to nothing, and they will just supply the next willing client to oppose the NUN once more.

But as I said before, a NUN dictated peace is among the least of Windermere's worries right now.

- Tak

At a point you are correct. Epsilon is the winner because the have gained most in the series.

Epsilon is still a supplier of NUN and they can renegotiate with windermere again.

About the matter that NUN dictates peace. I don't think they are I the position to do so. At least not as long as they have not clean up the mess theit subdivision caused in the past and the current event when they tried to bomb a second time.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

About the matter that NUN dictates peace. I don't think they are I the position to do so. At least not as long as they have not clean up the mess theit subdivision caused in the past and the current event when they tried to bomb a second time.

Why do you think NUNs would be responsible to clean up the mess? Why can't Windermere do it? The former conquered planets would certainly want Windermere to clean up the mess on its knees, with its tongue.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The one who wanted to enslave the galaxy is dead.

Clearly, you have not learned a thing about the history of our own country, Germany. Our national reputation was shit for a long time, Germans got shit until my generation abroad for our past and if it wasn't that the United States needed us as a buffer state against the Soviet Union, we probably would have been de-industrialized and turned into an agrarian nation (see the Morgenthau plan).

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It does matter, because Freyja is windermere and Hayates is the son of the man whoavoided bigger casualties by denying order from NUN. So yes, what they say literally matters, because they are symbolic figures on how humans and windermere should treat themselve after this incident and they are - along with chaos and walküre - the heroes of the Starwind sector.

Freyja probably matters a bit, since she is a member of Walkure. But Hayate? Nobody outside of Chaos even knows about his past, and believe me.... if people would know, he would become a negative symbol for many, not a positive one. And Hayate is completely unknown to most people of the Starwind sector, too.

And this still doesn't mean that NUNS (who is the only factor which matters on the interstellar stage) would feel compelled to listen to any of them, since they have no standing within the organization.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The one who wanted to enslave the galaxy is dead.

Hahahahahahah... Really? That's all you have to say to the rest of us? Not gonna bother arguing the point, then.

[Convoy]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Clearly, you have not learned a thing about the history of our own country, Germany. Our national reputation was shit for a long time, Germans got shit until my generation abroad for our past and if it wasn't that the United States needed us as a buffer state against the Soviet Union, we probably would have been de-industrialized and turned into an agrarian nation (see the Morgenthau plan).

Yup. Ignorance only works as an excuse so far. It is the height of incompetence to allow your leader to pull such things right in front of your own noses. And then claim it was only their fault and not yours as well? Cowardice.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Yup. Ignorance only works as an excuse so far. It is the height of incompetence to allow your leader to pull such things right in front of your own noses. And then claim it was only their fault and not yours as well? Cowardice.

It seems you have not watched episode 26 otherwise you should have figured out that Heinz intended to have peace talks rather than continuing the war. But yeah, it's cowardice. Roid betrayed his king and nation because he did not follow the the kings intention but his own.

Windermeres ruler corrected the wrong by commading his knights to fight their own chancellor to allow bringing back freedom to the galaxy. That has nothing with being coward but being betrayed by his own men. It was not his intention any longer to shed more blood.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Clearly, you have not learned a thing about the history of our own country, Germany. Our national reputation was shit for a long time, Germans got shit until my generation abroad for our past and if it wasn't that the United States needed us as a buffer state against the Soviet Union, we probably would have been de-industrialized and turned into an agrarian nation (see the Morgenthau plan).

Morgenthau Plan was an illusion which was impossible to set unless they wanted to bring imbalance in the european region.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Freyja probably matters a bit, since she is a member of Walkure. But Hayate? Nobody outside of Chaos even knows about his past, and believe me.... if people would know, he would become a negative symbol for many, not a positive one. And Hayate is completely unknown to most people of the Starwind sector, too.

And this still doesn't mean that NUNS (who is the only factor which matters on the interstellar stage) would feel compelled to listen to any of them, since they have no standing within the organization.

Hayate will matter, because he is a pilot of delta and son of Wright. Is that negative? For those who fear the truth coming out of the dimension eater, yes. But moreover he will get recognized because he is the protector of Freyja.

And even though if NUNS won't listen to both, they listen to Lady M.

[magnuskn]

Your fantasies are amusing, but not convincing.

[HirouKeimou]

I will not debate on the political bullshit anymore because it's really stupid; however...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Freyja probably matters a bit, since she is a member of Walkure. But Hayate? Nobody outside of Chaos even knows about his past, and believe me.... if people would know, he would become a negative symbol for many, not a positive one. And Hayate is completely unknown to most people of the Starwind sector, too.

There is a small possibility he'll gain a little more recognition if he marries Freyja, signifying their union means it's possible for humans to coexist with Windermere, as in their ability to love each other regardless of skin or race could hold ground in the future of Windermere like it did for the Zentradi (Max and Millia parallel here). Of course, I'm not discounting his father or past here; I'm choosing focusing on their racial differences here. I personally believe Hayate has a little political power in this conflict because of his relationship with Freyja.

I don't personally know if it'd help him or Freyja in becoming a political body; however, if enough publicity is drawn to their relationship (via concerts or interviews), gradually their relationship could broaden the universe's opinion on Windermere. If things could smooth over enough, maybe Freyja could be the negotiator for the NUNS and Heinz will listen to her again (seeing her relationship with Hayate and all of Chaos going okay).

Of course, who knows if it'll ever be resolved... (especially on screen...)

[Tak]

I did root for Windermere for the first half of the series, even with the urge of shoving something robust up Fart-kun's arse. Moreover, Roid was rather reasonable, and Windermere machines were aesthetically pleasing.

Of course that quickly faded away about half way through the series.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

About the matter that NUN dictates peace. I don't think they are I the position to do so. At least not as long as they have not clean up the mess theit subdivision caused in the past and the current event when they tried to bomb a second time.

You are misunderstanding me, NUN dictated peace, or anything NUN at this moment, is simply not Windermere's primary concern. I also share HirouKeimou's sentiment that I care not for the moralities at this time.

But let reality ensue for a second.

Lets focus on Windermere as a planet. Windermere probably achieved planetary unification less than half-century ago. It is a planet covered in ice 365 days a year. It has no visible cities and large population centers. It has no industry and no manufacturing capability for its own weapons. It relies on Epsilon for probably the entirety of its military. It imports nearly everything, and apples seem to be its only viable export. Though how Windermere grows apples is beyond me.

Lets also play devil's advocate and straight out compare NUNs to that of a bully. Truth be told, there are several unsavory characters within the NUNs, and Leon from Frontier is a perfect example. So for the sake of this discussion, they are the bully.

Windermere then decides they should piss off the bully. Unfortunately, they didn't just piss off the bully in the process, Windermere not only pissed off the bully, but the bully's kid brothers, and the bully's big brother. All the while Windermere's only supplier of arms ditched them!

So its fine and dandy Prince Ketchup wants peace negotiations with the NUN, but he is forgetting that NUN's kid brothers, aka the entire Brísingamen sector, might just want his head on a pike. Their anger could possibly be vented in the form of simple trade embargoes to the more severe direct military confrontation.

For a nation that relied on imports for everything and just recently lost its entire military, either prospect is deadly.

What is worse? Windermere pissed off NUN's big, unstable brother, the Zentradi! Hell, whats stopping the Zentradi from using Prince Ketchup's little white dot of a planet as target practice!?

So the question remains for Windermere and its leaders, what now?

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

So its fine and dandy Prince Ketchup wants peace negotiations with the NUN, but he is forgetting that NUN's kid brothers, aka the entire Brísingamen sector, might just want his head on a pike. Their anger could possibly be vented in the form of simple trade embargoes to the more severe direct military confrontation.

For a nation that relied on imports for everything and just recently lost its entire military, either prospect is deadly.

What is worse? Windermere pissed off NUN's big, unstable brother, the Zentradi! Hell, whats stopping the Zentradi from using Prince Ketchup's little white dot of a planet as target practice!?

So the question remains for Windermere and its leaders, what now?

- Tak

Straight and simple said. They can demand everything else but the rulers or one of his family members head. This is not a fantasy but what happened in Japan after the capitulation. The one held responsible was Tojo. Emperor Hirohito was too important for the country. Now everybody can discuss if this was right or wrong but this would apply to the same scenario with having to want Heinz head chopped off his shoulders.

[Convoy]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It seems you have not watched episode 26 otherwise you should have figured out that Heinz intended to have peace talks rather than continuing the war. But yeah, it's cowardice. Roid betrayed his king and nation because he did not follow the the kings intention but his own.

Heinz set out to initiate the peace talks on the grounds that the Brisingr Cluster belonged to Windermere, the ultimate humanoid nation. The fact that Windermere's public standing has probably been weakened by the revelation of Roid's conspiracy is an unfortunate setback to Heinz; he wouldn't have willingly conceded anything.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Heinz set out to initiate the peace talks on the grounds that the Brisingr Cluster belonged to Windermere, the ultimate humanoid nation. The fact that Windermere's public standing has probably been weakened by the revelation of Roid's conspiracy is an unfortunate setback to Heinz; he wouldn't have willingly conceded anything.

This is what I find amazing about this group. People will make stuff up, go with it, and pretend that it's "canon." And get angry when others insist (with sources) that it's not.

Oh well. After Frontier ended, Animesuki was one of THE places to be to find out news. For Delta...? Not so much. These days, there are too many "hints and allegations" and too few facts. And no one seems to care.

See you, Space Songstress...