Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Convoy]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

This is what I find amazing about this group. People will make stuff up, go with it, and pretend that it's "canon." And get angry when others insist (with sources) that it's not.

I put forth my post as a logical interpretation, not as fact. Why don't you show me fact that Heinz would not have done the things I describe?

[BetoJR]

Things just keep getting interestinger and interestinger...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Straight and simple said. They can demand everything else but the rulers or one of his family members head. This is not a fantasy but what happened in Japan after the capitulation. The one held responsible was Tojo. Emperor Hirohito was too important for the country. Now everybody can discuss if this was right or wrong but this would apply to the same scenario with having to want Heinz head chopped off his shoulders.

The Emperor was spared all because MacArthur got to Japan before anyone else. Had it been China or the Soviet Union, heads will roll. But deposing the Emperor makes no sense either way, because Japanese Emperors forfeited actual political power since the 10th century.

Though today's Chinese government isn't buying 1953's peace accord anyway. China just isn't pushing it beyond rhetorics because they can't. Besides, to the Chinese regime, Japan is rather useful both politically & economically.

- - - - -

But Windermere isn't Japan. Heinz actually has power, literal magical power. Moreover, NUN doesn't have a strong presence there at the moment, and the entire sector would fill the void left by the NUN while possibly demand their own versions of justice. Keep in mind that Windermere also possesses little in terms of actual practice value.

Then there is the Zentradi, who treats rules like a reference. Even the NUNs knows to stay the hell away when they mobilize en masse. To draw a historical parallel, don't forget what happened to East Germany during Soviet occupation. The latter pretty much did whatever they wanted.

So there is that. Now you are Prince Jailbait Ketchup Heinz Aero Windermere, what would you do?

- Tak

[Matts]

I just like the big brother Zentreadi analogy. Don't piss of aniki, guys!

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

So there is that. Now you are Prince Jailbait Ketchup Heinz Aero Windermere, what would you do?

- Tak

- Negotiate peace talks with the neighbouring planets as planned prior to Roids takeover
- Let the neighbouring planets decide whether to remain within the Starwind sector or to remain independent or decide whatever fraction they want to join
- Clarify that Roids way was not the way windermere rulership intended to go but have went to by the last events
- Clarify that the current NUNs organizational structure has driven windermere to raise the weapon and with the flight recorder data of wrights plane it is confirmed that windermere did not drop the bomb themselve
- NUN confirms that they dropped the bomb taking responsibility for the rogue unit and further put rules that avoid actions ordered by the local forces.
- install rules that the usage of dimension eaters are only applicable as ultimo ratio
- Windermere accepts to not use the mind control technology as this will be marked as illegal same as dimension eaters
- refund those who receive mental damage from the mind control
- Establish back local trade
- allow to share protoculture technologies and and researches
- Negotiate talks with Chaos or even hire them
- Those remaining with the Starwind Sector merge military forces to and trade liaison officrs with NUN.

Shall I continue?

Further what can be done as well. Considering Freyja might still live your so called Zentraedis would attack the sector. I would not cut out that Walküre and delta will be send out to support windermere out of 2 reasons:
1.) Freyja is still windermere and she still has ties to friends and families on windermere. Since she loves windermere apple I do not think that she would want that windermere falls. Not because of the government but for the people and the planet itself.
2.) If windermere falls, it might not take long to reach the other planets. In the sectors own interest its better to have windermere as a buffer state.

Originally Posted by Convoy

I put forth my post as a logical interpretation, not as fact. Why don't you show me fact that Heinz would not have done the things I describe?

Here we go. I'll repeat the dialogue between Heinz and Keith:

H: I could feel the wind of tens of thousands of lives being extinguished. Is this the burden Father had to shoulder?
K: It is the fate of those who rule the stars.
H: Keith... So everyone's been shouldering this weight? From now on, I'll take part in it as well.
K: Yes, your majesty
H: But it is not my intention to needlessly spill blood. Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks
K: Your Majesty?!
H: I will end this struggle once and for all.

Where in this dialogue fit that "the grounds that the Brisingr Cluster belonged to Windermere"?

The dialogue is so wide open for interpretations I would say that your logical interpretation is going the opposite way and it's wrong.

[Convoy]

Yeah, give up "spilling blood". Not give up their "rightful ownership" which at no point has Heinz ever protested Roid's supremacist rhetoric.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

- Negotiate peace talks with the neighbouring planets as planned prior to Roids takeover
- Let the neighbouring planets decide whether to remain within the Starwind sector or to remain independent or decide whatever fraction they want to join

The NUN and Brisingr Alliance wont negotiate planets as thosedon't belong to Windermere and Windermere has nothing to offer these planets.

Remember Windermere is economicqally poor.

- Clarify that Roids way was not the way windermere rulership intended to go but have went to by the last events

Heinz approved Roid's galactic conquest plan through enslavement on live television.

It may have not been a hivemind but their whole plan's linchpin is slavery of entire worlds using Var.

- Clarify that the current NUNs organizational structure has driven windermere to raise the weapon and with the flight recorder data of wrights plane it is confirmed that windermere did not drop the bomb themselve
- NUN confirms that they dropped the bomb taking responsibility for the rogue unit and further put rules that avoid actions ordered by the local forces.
- install rules that the usage of dimension eaters are only applicable as ultimo ratio

As said before a moot point. Windermere proved those who made the decision to use a strategic weapon to destroy a weapon of mass enslavement justified.

Given at the time Windermere would enslave the galaxy with no regard for freedom and life as in the case on Al Shahal NUNS is justified in deploying MDE as a countermeasure to ensure they don't succeed.

- refund those who receive mental damage from the mind control
- Establish back local trade

What part of Windermere being poor do you not understand? NUN treaties place heavy restriction on Fold Quartz due to the actions of Macross Galaxy who tried to dominate the galaxy through enslavement of the Vajra forcing mind control hivemind via implants. Macross Galaxy made its ctizens all cyborgs as implants were mandatory and they going to do it to the rest of the galaxy.

In the eyes of the Children of the Protoculture Windermere is no different.

- allow to share protoculture technologies and and researches

Again the NUN has good reason not to proliferate certain technologies. Col. Burton created an Evil series without government approval. Fasces installed a Protodevlin barrier on the Quaedluun-Alma from Protodevlin factory arsenal.

- Those remaining with the Starwind Sector merge military forces to and trade liaison officrs with NUN.

Nobody wants to be part of the Windermere Co-Prosperity Sphere. The Brisingr cluster has the Brisingr Alliance already.

Here we go. I'll repeat the dialogue between Heinz and Keith:

H: I could feel the wind of tens of thousands of lives being extinguished. Is this the burden Father had to shoulder?
K: It is the fate of those who rule the stars.
H: Keith... So everyone's been shouldering this weight? From now on, I'll take part in it as well.
K: Yes, your majesty
H: But it is not my intention to needlessly spill blood. Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks
K: Your Majesty?!
H: I will end this struggle once and for all.

Where in this dialogue fit that "the grounds that the Brisingr Cluster belonged to Windermere"?

The dialogue is so wide open for interpretations I would say that your logical interpretation is going the opposite way and it's wrong.

Note on bolded part Heinz will negotiate if Windermere is in position of strength. If they are not in a position of strength Heinz will continue the struggle.

Twin: Heinz-sama is working with Walkure?

Bogue: Do you want us to forgive them?

Heinz: I do not ask that of you. The UN Government must be dealt with eventually. However Roid takes priority.

Heinz did not hail NUNS for a ceasefire he only ordered his remaining forces to retreat to Windermere.

The threat of the Song of the Stars and Wind as a galactic threat is nullified as the Ruin network was destroyed.

Heinz will prepare for siege as their trump card is no more. Problem for them Epsilon abandoned them already.

More or less Windermere is screwed. Better to declare unconditional surrender once the fleets come.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Yeah, give up "spilling blood". Not give up their "rightful ownership" which at no point has Heinz ever protested Roid's supremacist rhetoric.

The conversation ends with: "I will end this struggle once and for all."

Further when Heinz ordered his knights to take down Roid: For the great wind, take down Roid Brehm and protect the galaxy.

So there is at least some speeches which speaks against your opinion that Heinz never protested against Roid.

[charles883]

ReddyRedWolf and Vallen Chaos Valiant, If you become president of super power(NUNS),you possibly become the worse of the all as you agree that nation should nuke other nation out of all existence wilily nilly because you do not trust them as they have nuke like Iran(Windermere) and justified that action that they are rogue nation

Humor me this: Why US or Other super power still Haven't nuke Iran or North Korea out of existence yet?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by charles883

ReddyRedWolf and Vallen Chaos Valiant, If you become president of super power(NUNS),you possibly become the worse of the all as you agree that nation should nuke other nation out of all existence wilily nilly because you do not trust them as they have nuke like Iran(Windermere) and justified that action that they are rogue nation

Yeah, you keep on telling us NUN needs reforms. I can agree with that. It has certain unsavory characters and bad apples, nobody doubts it.

But let me ask you, what does Windermere need to do to change itself after doing what it had done?

Also stop pretending this is only a NUN vs Windermere problem, because it isn't. Forget the NUN, take them out of the picture and Windermere is still screwed.

- Tak

[charles883]

Just like how Germany and Japan change after WW 2 which create democratic constitution, sell Fold quartz to non weapon cooperation like communication, and do trading based nation like Japan and Dutch

[Tak]

Originally Posted by charles883

Just like how Germany and Japan change after WW 2 which create democratic constitution, sell Fold quartz to non weapon cooperation like communication, and do trading based nation like Japan and Dutch

And did you know what was the pretext to that?

UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

If you want an analogy, the Allies are like the NUN, except they aren't really there. The Zentradi OTOH...

- Tak

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by charles883

ReddyRedWolf and Vallen Chaos Valiant, If you become president of super power(NUNS),you possibly become the worse of the all as you agree that nation should nuke other nation out of all existence wilily nilly because you do not trust them as they have nuke like Iran(Windermere) and justified that action that they are rogue nation

Humor me this: Why US or Other super power still Haven't nuke Iran or North Korea out of existence yet?

Remember in this setting Near Extinction Events are a fact. So political comparison between US-Iran or US-South Korea-North Korea relations do not apply.

With Iran nobody wants the Mid-East radioactive as Israel has nukes themselves. With North Korea nobody wants a refugee crisis that will flood China and South Korea.

You are the one who doesn't have clue about real world politics.

Nukes without saying nuclear has been used since the first series and is the reason why Earth humans survived as a species. Why do you think the Zentradi Main Fleet retreated?

Plus Protoculture weapons of mass extinction has been encountered before and conventional weapons and Reaction weapons can't scratch them.

Or the fact the stated goal of a medieval people who they uplifted is to enslave all the races of the galaxy and they can do it without hesitation.

This means you don't understand the fictional setting of Macross either.

[charles883]

Like how Germany and Japan after WW 2, they did have UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

Remember in this setting Near Extinction Events are a fact. So political comparison between US-Iran or US-South Korea-North Korea relations do not apply.

With Iran nobody wants the Mid-East radioactive as Israel has nukes themselves. With North Korea nobody wants a refugee crisis that will flood China and South Korea.

You are the one who doesn't have clue about real world politics.

Nukes without saying nuclear has been used since the first series and is the reason why Earth humans survived as a species. Why do you think the Zentradi Main Fleet retreated?

Plus Protoculture weapons of mass extinction has been encountered before and conventional weapons and Reaction weapons can't scratch them.

Or the fact the stated goal of a medieval people who they uplifted is to enslave all the races of the galaxy and they can do it without hesitation.

This means you don't understand the fictional setting of Macross either

Then why the heck NUNS banned dimensional weapon in the fist place yet they themselves illegally use it. To me no matter what justification, it is wrong to Use WMD as solution of any problem as it become dangerous in very long term as like Wattfield says, people will become easier to pull trigger to kill if they use it constantly as if NUNS will jump into very dangerous slope as if they see using WMD as easiest solution to their problem . Also what stopping them using Dimensional Eater bomb if they do not change as NUNS will use any slightest excuse to consider threat like NUNS planet protest or just discover Protoculture weapon that not functional, NUNS then destroy entire planet to end problem and commit genocide and cover up. To me it wrong to commit genocide on other to save your sorry ass as who decide which species should survive or die and what makes human more special than other species. To me all children of Protoculture are same with their own strength and weakness. ALSO NUNS already prosper a there trillion human population now, So I do not consider Near Extinction Events.

Anime analogy in corrupt NUNS that YOU for some reason support their genocide act to 'save' humanity: Titan, Earth Alliance, A-LAWS

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Or the fact the stated goal of a medieval people who they uplifted is to enslave all the races of the galaxy and they can do it without hesitation.

I guess this is where the bottleneck in the discussion is. Windermere (Roid excluded in the second half of the series) goal was not to enslave the galaxy but to remove the dictation of NUNs political way.

The mind control technology was used to bring civil and military personnel under control and with that lowering resistance to their strategic goals. And the goals were to claim the ruins which are amplifiers for the mind control technology.

Civil casualties were not that much after windermeres war declaration and those who got killed were mostly military personnel.

Further there is hesitation. Heinz has experienced what it means to have super weapon and what deaths it causes. After his conversation with his brother he is not willing to shed blood if neccessary. Well, there you go. There is your hesitation. Heinz is not like his father or his mentor. He is portrayed as a naive youngster with Oni-chan syndrome.

Originally Posted by Tak

And did you know what was the pretext to that?

UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

If you want an analogy, the Allies are like the NUN, except they aren't really there. The Zentradi OTOH...

- Tak

Uncondidional surrender in exchange for confirming that they (NUN) dropped the bomb. Sounds fair and square.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by charles883

Then why the heck NUNS banned dimensional weapon in the fist place yet they themselves illegally use it.

Because they were worried that a bunch of psychopathic Windermere-supremacists would try to mind control the entire known universe, and they tried to protect the world against that threat.

And they were proven right. Hayate's dad had faith that Windermere were good people, but he was wrong.

Uncondidional surrender in exchange for confirming that they (NUN) dropped the bomb. Sounds fair and square.

You sound smug, but you forgot the four planets who want payback for the hundreds of thousands Windermere killed in their invasion. NUNs can literally say they eat live babies and that wouldn't make these planets turn against NUNs.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Because they were worried that a bunch of psychopathic Windermere-supremacists would try to mind control the entire known universe, and they tried to protect the world against that threat.

And they were proven right. Hayate's dad had faith that Windermere were good people, but he as wrong.

So he was wrong with Freyja as well? You still have not understood that NUN created this monster scenario.

You say Wright was wrong, but he handled right. He had chosen civil lives over fear and military orders.


As we discussed earlier if we can credit N.U.N.S. central organization if one of their subdivisions drop a dimension eater. Yes we can. The source is here:
http://macross2.net/m3/macrosspedia/...dia-index.html

The New United Nations Government in Macross Frontier: In 2007 the sequel Macross Frontier was produced and began utilizing the "New United Nations Government" title for an administration that ruled human civilization not from Earth, but from aboard the mobile colony fleet Macross Frontier. However, in this sequel, the private military contractor Strategic Military Services (SMS) has come to play a very prominent role in the defense and military policy of this new government. Creator Shoji Kawamori has stated (interview from Otona Anime magazine #9) the New U.N. is a newly organized and decentralized government of the human colony fleets and colony worlds. Kawamori states that Earth is no longer able to directly control the hundreds of colony world and fleets given the vast interstellar distances involved. This change in government was not a coup or revolution, but a realigning of the galaxy at large. Thus U.N. colonies and fleets became self-governing but belong to the New United Nations as members.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You sound smug, but you forgot the four planets who want payback for the hundreds of thousands Windermere killed in their invasion. NUNs can literally say they eat live babies and that wouldn't make these planets turn against NUNs.

Can you visually prove that they want payback?

[Tak]

Egads! Ya know what, I am gonna help ya'll out...

First, please forget the Starwind Sector. It is utterly irrelevant at this point. The so-called Starwind Sector was a forced membership that nobody asked for.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Uncondidional surrender in exchange for confirming that they (NUN) dropped the bomb. Sounds fair and square.

Yeah, its already revealed in-verse and no further attempts by NUN to hide the fact had been committed.

There is just a tiny weeny bit of technicality here... Just as Windermere claimed Chaos members were not protected under the NUN treaty because they were not NUN affiliates, Windermerians are also exempt from said treaty because they declared complete independence!

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Can you visually prove that they want payback?

Can you prove that they... don't?

- - - - -

As King Jailbait Ketchup Heinz Delicious Aero Windermere, he should now:

1. Invite presence of the NUN and propose unconditional surrender via Chaos with the latter acting as a guarantor, and only to the NUN.

2. Provide base of operations for NUNs occupation to act as a strategic foothold for the Brísingamen Sector. Sell that point to the NUN, since Windermere suffered the least collateral damage while other planets within the sector are busy rebuilding.

If no viable strategic value is available, make $h!t up!

3. Open unrestricted trade. Tell them Windermere Protoculture apples are best for pie, or something, and stop baking it, its atrocious!

4. Offer base of operations for the Zentradi. Build a friggin mall, call it Milia-mall, and stick a hologram of Minmei smack in the middle of it.

5. Assume all responsibilities. Please don't even try to shove this on a dead guy, it piss people off.

Seriously, please don't even try to demand the NUN to apologize for anything. Windermerians aren't like us, they aren't the audience who can view this conflict and count violations at our leisure. They are directly involved, and realistically speaking, they are not in any position to demand.

- Tak

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Tak

5. Assume all responsibilities. Please don't even try to shove this on a dead guy, it piss people off.

- Tak

THAT is a HUGE one.

There is just no way any of Windermere's enemies would ever believe the entire blame for the war rests with a guy that Windermere already killed. There are some grains of truth, but not enough to actually shift the blame for the entire conflict. From the outside it would look like Windermere just created a scapegoat to protect their king, and be perceived as an insult to their intelligence.