Methods and Possibilities for Defeating Accelerator [Speculation]

[hamazura]

Hah there are many ways to defeat accel... Especially after he got his chocker

1. Use ability to remove oxygen, suffocate him
2. Make him exhaust, possible by real strong man gang him up
3. Use magic or unknown attack which accel dont know its vector law
4. Use curse magic
5. Use touma's "extend my right arm"
6. Kiiihaaaaraaaaa kuuuuun
7. Surprise him, maybe he will surprised and his heart will stop beating
8. It would be cool if awaki can teleport accel heart and then smash it like what killua did
9. Attack him with attack that powerful enough to make accel concentrate 100% on it and then turn off his passive barrier just like when he save last order

Though its become super near-impossible level after he got his black and white wing

Dont know if there are another strategy, im not sure misaka 19990-20.000 can beat him.
I mean look, we know dat clone not very smart or dumb. Shared memory of 10.030 attempt and still surprised when the bullet repelled? Fvk that misaka imotos are idiot -_-
well, despite being idiot over 10.000 time and just spam gun and electric, 10.032 is a fvkin genius to suffocate accel -_-
if the 20.000th imoto fight accel and have power output of mikoto, maybe she coukd beat him with some kind strategy and use dat cocky personality of overpowered accel.
Too bad mikoto is normal student who dont know anything about dark side. If mikoto join dark side, she could gain battle experience and become super strong...
Well dont know about mugino... Despite being a pro, she is Fvkin idiot who only spam her beam gundam laser

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

...Are you trolling here? Because I literally just explained why that happened in the post you are responding to. He didn't 'turn it off' he was so busy calculating something else he didn't have the spare calculation to make it work by default like it normally does.

It's explained why he can breath and stuff so many times it's not even funny so I'm not even going to bother replying to that.

If he turn it off, then he can turn it off. Where are you getting the idea that he can't?

Where is that said?

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Can't actually answer because it's spoilers but

Spoiler for Index stuff:

In the first place, that Fiamma was highly highly drained of power and still, Accelerator got knocked out

Oh yeah... Doi... I forgot about that... I take it back... but still. He's one of the strongest characters we've seen yet.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Sackett

If he turn it off, then he can turn it off. Where are you getting the idea that he can't?

Where is that said?

Spoiler for Index 2:

He can't turn it off but it can be turned off unconsciously whenever he is doing a task too difficult to do to have it run in the background. Like when he was rewiring LO's brain. Sure he could have started rewiring a brain in the middle of the fight to get it to stop working but that would be completely useless as he wouldn't have been able to do anything else either.

It'd never written anywhere because Kamachi expects you to understand it without needing to be told. Please don't pull the bad-writing card again, explaining every little easy-to-figure-out thing would be the bad writing

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Spoiler for Index 2:

He can't turn it off but it can be turned off unconsciously whenever he is doing a task too difficult to do to have it run in the background. Like when he was rewiring LO's brain. Sure he could have started rewiring a brain in the middle of the fight to get it to stop working but that would be completely useless as he wouldn't have been able to do anything else either.

It'd never written anywhere because Kamachi expects you to understand it without needing to be told. Please don't pull the bad-writing card again, explaining every little easy-to-figure-out thing would be the bad writing

In other words it's your opinion. Considering that Kamachi is not subtle at all in any of his other descriptions of the various character abilities or limitations I don't see why I should accept your opinion that he is being subtle here.

As for bad writing, I will repeat: Kamachi sucks as a writer. I have read plenty of novels translated from Japanese into English. I am usually rather forgiving, because I can tell that things get lost in translation. That is not the case here. Kamachi sucks as a writer, and I don't really care if you fanboys say otherwise.

He lectures the reader, which is annoying as all get out. He repeatedly likes to deceive the reader into thinking a character is villain before revealing it was a misunderstanding - which would be okay, except that he flat out tells you that the character is a villain before telling you later that it wasn't true after all. (Plus after the third or fourth time happening it becomes rather predictable and boring). It's one of the reasons why his insistence on telling instead of showing is so terrible. If you show a character doing something and thus deceive the reader it's because the reader is making the same misjudgement as the protagonist. If you use an omniscient view to tell the reader one thing, and then later say it was untrue - that's just bad writing. His plots are confusing (with a few exceptions, such as the Sister's Arc). He rarely shows character development through actions, instead just dumping on you the "inner thoughts" of the characters as they do some navel gazing.

It's not exactly a secret that his writing is terrible. The western author he reminds me most of is George Lucas. Great imagination and creativity, but he really needs co-authors to polish his work into something smoother and better refined. The Railgun manga is an example of this occurring.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Sackett

In other words it's your opinion. Considering that Kamachi is not subtle at all in any of his other descriptions of the various character abilities or limitations I don't see why I should accept your opinion that he is being subtle here.

It's not subtly it's just plain not feeling the need to explain. If Accelerator could turn off his reflection he would have. There's literally no need to bring that up in any way. Does he feel the need to explain that Kamijou can't turn off his imagine breaker?

[lazydoggamer]

How did a thread about how to beat Accelerator turn into whether or not Kamachi is a good writer.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by lazydoggamer

How did a thread about how to beat Accelerator turn into whether or not Kamachi is a good writer.

Because Accelerator's powers are pure PIS?

[relentlessflame]

Let's go back to the topic at hand. If people can't do that, they don't need to keep on posting here.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Let's go back to the topic at hand. If people can't do that, they don't need to keep on posting here.

Like I said. His weaknesses are probably his ego and his naivety at the fact that the clones are actually human. Accelerator separates the experiment from his personal life... he doesn't like to kill "good, innocent" humans.

So: beating him up even a little and psychologically traumatizing him might work?

BTW: answering Sackett's point briefly anyway... in a way that relates to to defeating Accelerator:

Spoiler for Accelerator vs. that Kihara analysis of battle; basically what chaos says 2 posts down.... ;):

Even if he turned his reflection off... he would still get beaten up just the same anyway... because then Amata wouldn't have to even punch Accelerator in a special way. We know that Accelerator is weak physically. So jamming his powers (relevant to this discussion) would work. Accelerator's reflection was the only thing partially saving him from getting completely punched out. This at least bought him some time. This explanation does make sense right?

So I don't see why you guys' are really having the argument in the first place...

[SilverTalon]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Spoiler for future novels:

A simple curse almost killed Accelerator on Hawaii, and before that, the simple act of singing magic almost killed him of blood loss if it wasn't because his power that prevented him any more blood loss.

Spoiler for Spoiler for same future novel:

Um, if that is what I'm thinking of, that is because they tricked him into casting it himself and casting magic almost killed him, so that doesn't necessarily prove that it would have actually worked if some one cast it on him

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Now that I think about it isn't there a really simple spell that defeats flying people? It's the reason so few magicians fly iirc. If that doesn't use any vectors than pretty much any magician could beat Accelerator if he decides to start using his tornadoes.

I'm pretty sure that spell just works on people using magic to fly.

Originally Posted by Sackett

Actually he does have a setting for "reflect everything" (which does have the draw back you describe) he even has a setting for "reflect everything except for specific exceptions" and that is his usual default setting before being injured.

It's not that Accelerator is unbeatable, just that for most people beating him requires a non-reflectable attack with surprise and speed sufficient to defeat Accelerator before he figures out how to counter it. An attack that confuses Accelerator (such as magic) is a plus.

Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:

Fiamma is the only one I can think of besides Touma who might be able to bypass Accelerator's defenses entirely without a way for Accelerator to counter. Even that depends on whether his two "I Win" attacks have vectors.

My guess is that "The strike that reaches everything when swung" probably does have some complicated vectors, and that Accelerator could probably counter it after seeing it in action once or twice. "The strike that ends everything it touches" probably doesn't have any direct vectors, but it's possible that after it touches you the destruction it causes might have vectors. In which case Accelerator might be able to prevent his full destruction. Otherwise it's a one hit kill against Accelerator.

Spoiler for Spoiler for novel events:

No, it isn't a reflect "everything," he still has to know sort of what it is. He could not initially reflect Dark Matter. He had to add that into his reflection. Unless you want to believe he knew about Dark Matter and intentionally sets his reflection to not reflect it. Though I'm pretty sure Kakine explains Accel's weakness basically the same way before he injured him.

Attacks having vectors doesn't mean they won't work. Even crappy magic didn't get reflected properly in Russia. I'm pretty sure sweep has a vector and tanking it almost killed him.

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Spoiler for Index 2:

He can't turn it off but it can be turned off unconsciously whenever he is doing a task too difficult to do to have it run in the background. Like when he was rewiring LO's brain. Sure he could have started rewiring a brain in the middle of the fight to get it to stop working but that would be completely useless as he wouldn't have been able to do anything else either.

Spoiler for Index 2:

Wait, so you are claiming that he can turn on and off things like auto reflecting sound or soap or water, but he couldn't consciously turn off auto reflecting human touch?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Spoiler for Index 2:

Wait, so you are claiming that he can turn on and off things like auto reflecting sound or soap or water, but he couldn't consciously turn off auto reflecting human touch?

He can, and it's been done before.

Spoiler for However, Index 2:

However from what I understand from all this spoiler tags is that you guys are talking about his fight with Amata right?

The problem is not what he can or can't do, but rather Amata can read him like a book. He has developed a counter for every move he makes because he knows him inside out. Turning off his ability doesn't do anything because Amata would just punch right through him.

Sounds like magic right? Sounds like mind reading right? Not really, poker players read tells all the time.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

He can, and it's been done before.

Spoiler for However, Index 2:

However from what I understand from all this spoiler tags is that you guys are talking about his fight with Amata right?

The problem is not what he can or can't do, but rather Amata can read him like a book. He has developed a counter for every move he makes because he knows him inside out. Turning off his ability doesn't do anything because Amata would just punch right through him.

Sounds like magic right? Sounds like mind reading right? Not really, poker players read tells all the time.

The main point after all is that Accelerator is

Spoiler for Railgun S episode 15 ; how much Accelerator works out ;) :

physically weak

so like Chaos said it wouldn't do any good.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

I'm pretty sure that spell just works on people using magic to fly.

Ah. my bad then.

Spoiler for Index 2:

Wait, so you are claiming that he can turn on and off things like auto reflecting sound or soap or water, but he couldn't consciously turn off auto reflecting human touch?

Well he can "turn on" other parts sure, we've seen him do that. But we've never seen him able to turn off his basic threat reflection, so I assume he can't. Maybe he can and like Chaos said it just wouldn't matter against Amata, but it seems simpler to just assume he can't.

All I want to say is that it was no plot hole.

Back to the topic on hand, I wonder if Accel could fight off telepathy? I'm inclined to think he can since Mikoto can so it's obviously something that can be 'blocked' but does anybody know for sure?

[Rydrallen]

Spoiler for F*cking big spoiler:

I thought Accel has already ascended to the Aeon of Horus? So 99% of the tactics given in this thread is rather pointless.

[Chaos2Frozen]

^
The short answer is no.

The details can be discussed in the Index subforums as it's too spoilerish for here.

[Tranhieu]

I actually feel a bit skeptical about the idea of suffocating him. We all know that Accelerator can control any vectors, even at submolecular level. If he were to be in a situation where all the oxygen around is sucked out, the guy might as well create oxygen himself out of something else by rearranging electrons, nuclei, quarks and so on right?

And going by that logic he can regenerate himself if any part of his body (except vital ones) gets blown off in battles?

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Tranhieu

I actually feel a bit skeptical about the idea of suffocating him. We all know that Accelerator can control any vectors, even at submolecular level. If he were to be in a situation where all the oxygen around is sucked out, the guy might as well create oxygen himself out of something else by rearranging electrons, nuclei, quarks and so on right?

And going by that logic he can regenerate himself if any part of his body (except vital ones) gets blown off in battles?

I don't think he has that good control. Fixing LO's brain took all of his calculation power alone, so something like that would probably be beyond him. It would be much simpler to fix the suffocation by controlling the wind to blow the ozone away.

Spoiler for LN Volume 22:

And I definitely doubt that he can regrow body parts... that's Touma's thing

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by hamazura

Hah there are many ways to defeat accel... Especially after he got his chocker

1. Would only work if Accelerator would just stand there and let you do that, which didn't work for Misaka 10032 He can always move the air around him to gather more oxygen.
2. Before the choker this is practically impossible. After the choker, sure, if you have enough people than he can't take in 15 (later 30) minutes. This time limit is his first weakness but you need to be strong enought o survive against him that long and still have strenght to beat him.

Spoiler for LN spoiler:

Basically the actual Kakine could do it.

3. Unknown vector like Dark Matter would take a few tries for Accelerator to incorporate them to his Reflect, so sure, an attack powerful enough to kill him in one blow would work.

Spoiler for LN spoiler:

And even them he partially deflects them like shown in the novels against the Russian magicians in World War 3.

4. We still don't know how "curse" magic works. If the curse magic doesn't have vector

Spoiler for LN spoiler:

like Cendrillon's

then yes, this his second weakness.
5. Ignoring that
6. Ignoring that(Though if you'r referring to Amata's technique, then yes, this is his third weakness)
7. Ignoring that.
8. We don't know much about how teleporters work in Toaru save the fact that they calculate on the 11th dimension, but they still have vectors so no.
9. The strenght of the attack should be irrelevant to Reflect. It's not a big calculus to just invert the movement vector The situation with Last Order was special because he was basically working at neuronal level erasing the virus.

if the 20.000th imoto fight accel and have power output of mikoto, maybe she coukd beat him with some kind strategy and use dat cocky personality of overpowered accel.
Too bad mikoto is normal student who dont know anything about dark side. If mikoto join dark side, she could gain battle experience and become super strong...

The sisters and Mikoto never had a chance against Accelerator, no matter what they tried. If Mikoto had joined the darkness her powers wouldn't become stronger. She would be more ruthless but I don't see how that would help. She would be more willing to use lethal attacks against Accelerator that he would reflect and killed her with.

Well dont know about mugino... Despite being a pro, she is Fvkin idiot who only spam her beam gundam laser

She's not and idiot, but there's just so much you can do with a power so focused on destruction like hers is. Not only she uses lasers, she figured out a way to compensate her limit of simultaneous beams using silicon cards, she can use her power as a shield, as a recoil boost, as prothesys and she's a good hand to hand fighter. And strong enough to throw Hamazura around with one normal arm. But she doesn't stand a chance against Accelerator.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

The sisters and Mikoto never had a chance against Accelerator, no matter what they tried. If Mikoto had joined the darkness her powers wouldn't become stronger. She would be more ruthless but I don't see how that would help. She would be more willing to use lethal attacks against Accelerator that he would reflect and killed her with.

Let me put one hypothetical situation.

Spoiler for LN:

First assumption: The Sisters have enough control over electromagnetism to create high precision arcs, being capable of releasing several of them at the same time with different characteristics would be preferable, but that shortcoming can be replaced by using several Sisters at the same time.

Second assumption: They somehow manage to understand the intrincancies of Accelerator's reflection (It's not impossible after lots and lots of more fights)

Third assumption: Like Mikoto, they are immune to ligthning.

With this, similar to what Amata did, they could create several lightning arcs that bend back near Accelerator, hoping one of them gets reflected back at him. Maybe even include one straight lightning in case he nullifies completely the reflection.

If they are like Mikoto and are indeed immune to lightning, getting it reflected back at them should be no problem.

Also, lightnings are extremely fast they should be able to try several times before getting attacked by him, and once one connects they can hope to overwhelm him before he recovers and modifies his reflection (thanks to the Network they should know exactly what configuration worked). If he does recover then they can try again, assuming they are not massacred by then.

So I wouldn't say they have no chance to beat him, even if it's extremely slim.

Mikoto would theoretically have the same chance, if she could get a hold of the appropiate information.

Of course, I got no idea what they could possible do against the black wings. So maybe at most they could help him "awaken" but not get him all the way to level 6.