Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Yeah? And I said the same thing there as I will here. So by your flawed logic should all the whites have been enslaved instead of what the Civil Rights Movement accomplished? An eye for an eye right?

The Civil War solved the question of slavery, not the civil rights movement.
Get your facts straight and learn more about the world which consists of 7 continents and several large bodies of ocean water, not just your tiny neighbourhood.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

From what we have been shown, though limited, about Britannian nobility is the evidence I am using to support my claims. The Feudal system of the right to rule by birthright and enforced social classes is part of Britannia, like I said, the nobles from Europe ran to North America just to keep their power. And they are willing to kill any opposition that even contests their power, so how is it that those people will support change?

You are right, absolute monarchy have not stayed that way in our world. But how did they change? Think England changed to a constitutional monarchy with small talk over tea and crumpets?

It took several centuries, several wars and in-fighting between the nobles etc. The Magna Carta good points and the abuses of it and other factors.

[Silver Soul]

Anyway, from a standpoint who to do think has a better chance of realizing their goal, Lelouch or Suzaku?

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

From what we have been shown, though limited, about Britannian nobility is the evidence I am using to support my claims. The Feudal system of the right to rule by birthright and enforced social classes is part of Britannia, like I said, the nobles from Europe ran to North America just to keep their power. And they are willing to kill any opposition that even contests their power, so how is it that those people will support change?

But there ARE people in the nobility that DO support change. That is the whole point! Not all of them are stuck up like Charles or as nasty as Jeremiah. If they were NOBODY would consider Suzaku a friend in the show at all. I consider what is happening to be a cross roads within Britannia. Things will change whether Lelouch or Suzaku are part of it or not from this point forward I believe.

You are right, absolute monarchy have not stayed that way in our world. But how did they change? Think England changed to a constitutional monarchy with small talk over tea and crumpets?

Well of course not, but it still happened right? Can we say for sure that it won't happen here? We just saw that a single revolt pretty much toppled the CF, what about a revolt or protests at the Britannian mainland? You never know.

Originally Posted by Dynastya

The Civil War solved the question of slavery, not the civil rights movement.
Get your facts straight and learn more about the world which consists of 7 continents and several large bodies of ocean water, not just your tiny neighbourhood.

Are you brain dead or something? I wasn't TALKING about slavery ending. I was talking about getting equal rights. They weren't slaves any more, but they had LIMITED rights. It took over 100 years before they finally GOT the same opportunities. Now, by your logic, it should have been just fair for them to take over and enslave the whites because 'an eye for an eye.' OR, taken the rights away and made them live the same way.

See how your failed logic doesn't work?

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

At this moment, since Britannia is a monarchy and not a representative government, Charles is the government. If he isn't willing to change no change will happen. No matter what anyone else says.

Euphemia got away with the SAZ because it would've stopped the Black Knights, not because Britannia wanted change.

Right, the Civil Rights movement is not the best example because the government system is just too different.

And for something as small as the Saz Euphie had to give up her rights to the throne. And what Euphie accomplished is not even close to equal rights, it is just a small piece of land were the Elevens can call themselves Japanese and live in the illusion that they are equal.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

From what we have been shown, though limited, about Britannian nobility is the evidence I am using to support my claims. The Feudal system of the right to rule by birthright and enforced social classes is part of Britannia, like I said, the nobles from Europe ran to North America just to keep their power. And they are willing to kill any opposition that even contests their power, so how is it that those people will support change?

You are right, absolute monarchy have not stayed that way in our world. But how did they change? Think England changed to a constitutional monarchy with small talk over tea and crumpets?

I absolutely agree with you.
How did England change from absolute to constitutional monarchy? It was changed from within. Just the same route Suzaku is going. So, Suzaku's way is a certain win. It's a long way, but it's a certain win for everyone, though, there will be those who will lose more than others.


Finally something about Suzaku.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Kicking the people who took my house out of it.

But that doesn't mean you'll get your house back, you know.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by musouka

Dynastya, what is more important to you? "Getting your house back" or killing the people that took it in the first place?

Kicking the people who took my house out of it. And if they happen to land on the road head first and die or get run over by incoming traffic, not my concern.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Right, the Civil Rights movement is not the best example because the government system is just too different.

And for something as small as the Saz Euphie had to give up her rights to the throne. And what Euphie accomplished is not even close to equal rights, it is just a small piece of land were the Elevens can call themselves Japanese and live in the illusion that they are equal.

Isn't it sometimes better to live in Illusion, than in Hell?
As far as you don't see Hell, there is nothing wrong with Illusion.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

I absolutely agree with you.
How did England change from absolute to constitutional monarchy? It was changed from within. Just the same route Suzaku is going. So, Suzaku's way is a certain win. It's a long way, but it's a certain win for everyone, though, there will be those who will lose more than others.


Finally something about Suzaku.

It changed when France supported the Nobles who wanted change and when those Nobles began a civil war against the King.

Read about the Magna Carta.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

I absolutely agree with you.
How did England change from absolute to constitutional monarchy? It was changed from within. Just the same route Suzaku is going. So, Suzaku's way is a certain win. It's a long way, but it's a certain win for everyone, though, there will be those who will lose more than others.


Finally something about Suzaku.

But sadly in the Code Geass community people don't want to wait they want conflict and war and glorious battles thats what Lelouch brings perhaps if there was an R3 than maybe we can see how that goes (unless there's another time skip)

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

Isn't it sometimes better to live in Illusion, than in Hell?
As far as you don't see Hell, there is nothing wrong with Illusion.

Everything is wrong with living in an illusion.

Ok I'll enslave you and your entire family and then confine you all in the basement where you can do anything you want, but the basement will have leaks, no creature comforts, no electricity or water or sanitation, no heating etc.

You can do anything inside that basement by hanging up torn old rags and pretending they are elegant drapes, use candles and pretend that they are electrical light bulbs, take a cardboard box, cut a hold in one side, draw a few images inside and pretend its a tv.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

But there ARE people in the nobility that DO support change. That is the whole point! Not all of them are stuck up like Charles or as nasty as Jeremiah. If they were NOBODY would consider Suzaku a friend in the show at all. I consider what is happening to be a cross roads within Britannia. Things will change whether Lelouch or Suzaku are part of it or not from this point forward I believe.

Well of course not, but it still happened right? Can we say for sure that it won't happen here? We just saw that a single revolt pretty much toppled the CF, what about a revolt or protests at the Britannian mainland? You never know.

The point is that the majority of the people that matter do not support change. There are good people in Britannia there is no doubt of that, just that the majority of them are not in a position were they can exercise any change in the system.

Yes Suzaku has Britannian friends but to the majority of Britannians he is still a Number. You heard the response in R2 when Suzaku went back to school and the class was abuzz? One of them said. "But he is an Eleven" and her friend replied "who cares hes one of the Emperor's closest men" and Rohmeiyer said "because you were a numbers" to him as well. When the general public and people that don't know him personally look at him they see the title Knight of Seven not the person that he is.

Right it happened through the people rising up and fighting the nobility, it didn't happen using Suzaku's way of changing from within that much is certain.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Everything is wrong with living in an illusion.

Ok I'll enslave you and your entire family and then confine you all in the basement where you can do anything you want, but the basement will have leaks, no creature comforts, no electricity or water or sanitation, no heating etc.

You can do anything inside that basement by hanging up torn old rags and pretending they are elegant drapes, use candles and pretend that they are electrical light bulbs, take a cardboard box, cut a hold in one side, draw a few images inside and pretend its a tv.

You missed the point. It's fine as long as you don't see hell. Of course i'll be not fine. And Illusion and Imagination are different things. But if you messed with my brain and make me live in my world without seeing the real one, I'll not feel discomfort. Because I'll take my Illusion as a reality. Only outsiders will see the problem. The same thing is with SAZ.

BTW, what if we are "inside that basement with hanging up torn old rags and pretending they are elegant drapes, use candles and pretend that they are electrical light bulbs, take a cardboard box, cut a hold in one side, draw a few images inside and pretend its a tv".
Do you feel something is wrong? No, you don't, because you take it as a Reality.

Matrix FTW

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

The point is that the majority of the people that matter do not support change. There are good people in Britannia there is no doubt of that, just that the majority of them are not in a position were they can exercise any change in the system.

Yes Suzaku has Britannian friends but to the majority of Britannians he is still a Number. You heard the response in R2 when Suzaku went back to school and the class was abuzz? One of them said. "But he is an Eleven" and her friend replied "who cares hes one of the Emperor's closest men" and Rohmeiyer said "because you were a numbers" to him as well. When the general public and people that don't know him personally look at him they see the title Knight of Seven not the person that he is.

Right it happened through the people rising up and fighting the nobility, it didn't happen using Suzaku's way of changing from within that much is certain.

If Lelouch would help him, they could achieve everything, isn't that so? As long as they work together, they can take whichever route they prefer. The problem is with their opinions about those routes.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

You missed the point. It's fine as long as you don't see hell. Of course i'll be not fine. And Illusion and Imagination are different things. But if you messed with my brain and make me live in my world without seeing the real one, I'll not feel discomfort. Because I'll take my Illusion as a reality. Only outsiders will see the problem. The same thing is with SAZ.

BTW, what if we are "inside that basement with hanging up torn old rags and pretending they are elegant drapes, use candles and pretend that they are electrical light bulbs, take a cardboard box, cut a hold in one side, draw a few images inside and pretend its a tv". Do you feel something is wrong? No, you don't, because you take it as a Reality.

You're the one who gets stuck in the basement, not me, I rather face reality and fight for my rights, respect and pride than accept any illusion.

After all, the principle of what you said was that living in an illusion is ok. It could be worse, I could have you living in a hole in the ground instead.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

If Lelouch would help him, they could achieve everything, isn't that so? As long as they work together, they can take whichever route they prefer. The problem is with their opinions about those routes.

But who do you think will ultimately bring about peace, if Lelouch wins then it would be an endless cycle of wars until everyone dies while if Suzaku wins than it has a better chance of peace as a whole.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

If Lelouch would help him, they could achieve everything, isn't that so? As long as they work together, they can take whichever route they prefer. The problem is with their opinions about those routes.

Well, without those 2 killing and planning against each otehr, code geass would be boring.

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

But who do you think will ultimately bring about peace, if Lelouch wins then it would be an endless cycle of wars until everyone dies while if Suzaku wins than it has a better chance of peace as a whole.

True, that's what I was saying earlier. Lulu is exactly following the steps of his dad. Then we will have another emo-youth plotting against Lulu's empire and repeat cycle.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

If Lelouch would help him, they could achieve everything, isn't that so? As long as they work together, they can take whichever route they prefer. The problem is with their opinions about those routes.

Well that much is certain, Lelouch is one of the few people that can make Suzaku's way work. Political strategy is not Suzaku's forte.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

But who do you think will ultimately bring about peace, if Lelouch wins then it would be an endless cycle of wars until everyone dies while if Suzaku wins than it has a better chance of peace as a whole.

If Lelouch wins, Britannia would no longer be the same system so even less chance of prolonged wars, even now things are looking up for all the people in the CF as they no longer have dickless despots ruling over them. And the EU is a democratic equal rights system, no need for them and Lelouch to fight eachother.