Fate/Zero - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[maplehurry]

Kariya loves them as people, but he fails to see they are also magi. So his grasp in the situation, like Tokiomi, is incomplete.

Really... ?

[DragoZERO]

We really need to stop discussing this Tokiomi-Sakura subject. We don't have enough to go on and things will only go more off topic.

On topic though, did anyone else notice the long ZR and ankle shot?

[GeostigmataShi]

Originally Posted by Thess

I did read the LN. Nowhere in the LN he gives the impression that he loves Sakura and Rin as human beings, beyond their potential as magi heirs. Outside of magic? Surely you jest!



So...?

Tokiomi aims to be a 100% magus, ergo, he can't have humane values. That's pretty obvious. Heck, his wish and strive is to disconnect completely of the world (and that includes abandoning his family) to go to the Root. You can't get more magus than Tokiomi Tohsaka.

That's why I say, that he loves them as magi, not as human beings. From the human beings POV (aka Kariya, who rejected his magi ancestry), his actions are deplorable. Just like Kariya's are (running away from his family) from a magi's POV.

It doesn't mean he'll be a bad mentor to Rin, in those scenes, Tokiomi shows he's a good mentor and, surprise, it's all magic related.

Spoiler for very slight.... stuff from fsn:

Have you forgotten Rin's narration in the prologue? Her father only pat her head once and never smiled at her (according to Rin). Wow, super human treatment.

They are foils. Like Kayneth's (dogmatic and aristocracy ways of magic) and Waver's (new, unorthodox ways to do magic). They are foils that conflict, Kiritsugu and Kirei are foils too. Is his way wrong or right? Well, that's to be seen.

If you read the LN
and still think Tokiomi don't love them as human... i don't understand what you mean by love.
maybe you mean pampered not love? ;p
it clearly show that Tokiomi is just bad at showing his love

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Proto

I didn't know you could inside of his head. Otherwise, as I've said this is just your own construction of his character (and you're entitled to it, just as I'm entitled to mine). And frankly, we are just repeating our own arguments over and over again so I think this is a good point to cut it off unless you(me/us) bring something new to the table.

Well, he might love them as a daughter but he does well to keep it lock up inside his deepest part of his heart :P. He's a very traditional magus, who would put a life as a magus before a life as a father or else he would not send Sakura away in the first place.

There are many examples of this but it would spoil F/SN and F/Z so I think we should better wait until the time.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

We really need to stop discussing this Tokiomi-Sakura subject. We don't have enough to go on and things will only go more off topic.

On topic though, did anyone else notice the long ZR and ankle shot?

I think it's fine as long as we don't spoil something. This episode shows disparity between Kariya's and Tokiomi's view of Rin and Sakura so I think trying to understand Tokiomi's character is not that bad.

Beside, I think F/Z is an anime that make you think and debate (true for F/SN too but anime just sucks). There's no absolute good and bad in the story, so questioning why someone does something is kinda though provoking.

EDIT: And right when I posted this I saw the "Character Discussion Thread" popped up :P. So yeah I think discuss the character there is better.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

On topic though, did anyone else notice the long ZR and ankle shot?

Who didn't?

The question is: Did anyone notice the unicycles?

[Malkuth]

I agree with most posters, the episode plot-wise was somewhat off by boosting Rin's power or rather making Uryuu seem even more useless. Nonetheless did wonders for developing Tokiomi, Aoi, and Kariya. Also despite the power up, loli Rin was exactly how I expected her to be (F/SN-wise)... vain-glorious and reckless, should they have resisted the power-up, they would have managed her last character trait... messing with other people's lives

Anyway, complains aside, the extra scene offered the chance for some visually gratifying moments (albeit not with awful lot of movement), and some new music, since there has been no scene yet that this type of arrangement could be used

Oh! and is it me or they censored Rin's panties twice in this episode, and despite the appeal it might have to some, having her pissing herself would probably be the only time I would understand it as furthering plot/characterazation, instead of fan-service

[~Yami~]

yeah! a sociable, friendly, hard-worker, talented, clumsy and small Rin..... hopefully I can still see Rin like this but she will be a closed person soon....

anyway, she already had a good judgement of situation in that age.... my heart beat getting faster everytime she saw Ryuunosuke.... she's lucky that Ryuunosuke is a ordinary human

finally an appearance of Kariya... I want to see that insect-man's battle in next episode please... xD

[Nochgo]

In my eyes, the ranking above was something like it:

10 - Has LoliRin in it.
9 (and below) - Does not have LoliRin in it.

So yea, as a Rin fanboy, I just ate this episode up (though I'd give 7-8 for content). I was afraid how the first anime original episode of the show was going to be like, but my fears were needless. Though with LoliRin, half the work was already done for ufotable. Ufotable did a very nice job combining original material with some contents from the light novel, making the episode seem very natural/likable even to the readers. On a side note, I found a renewed respect for Kana Ueda, for making child Rin's voice seem so authentic.

And I just can't wait for the next episode; it was one of my favorite parts from the novel.

[Last Sinner]

I'd been told by a friend that apparently Episode 10 was causing a lot of grief for people - that prompted me to go through Episodes 6-10 tonight.

Well...in all honesty - I don't understand what the big deal is. I'm going to be quite honest. Episode 10 is probably my favourite of the ten that have aired thus far. But not for the reasons most people are listing.

6 bored the daylights out of me. 7 and 8 were reasonable but incredibly camp, not that thrilling despite the action and Kotomine in F/Z is a complete buzzkill compared to what he is in FSN and why. If it wasn't for the banter between Caster and Saber/Lancer, those episodes would have been lax for me.

9 was one of the better episodes for me. Probably the first time all season I felt some proper connections to characters other than Saber and Irisviel. Something I'd been hoping for.

10 continued in that vein. And maybe that's one of the problems. For eight episodes, there's been little emotional attachment/interest to most characters in this show. Face it, a good deal of the people involved are cold and clinical in their methods - which isn't a bad thing in itself but the fact some of those characters are incredibly dull (namely Kiritsugu, Kirei and Tokiomi) just isn't doing much for the cause. Perhaps the fact we're suddenly being directed to care about some of the characters doesn't seem right to a significant proportion of those watching? Being able to be detached means you could watch the characters duke it out and feel little guilt in seeing what happens to them. Episodes like 10 bring some humanity and warmth to the mix, reminding you there are people involved here and that it probably is worth caring on some level.

As others have said, there is a need to create links to FSN from F/Z. So far what has been done seems to be accomplishing that. 10 seems an episode that would be appreciated more by those who have played the FSN game and understand what Rin became, but not so much for those starting their journey in the Fate universe with Zero. The purpose of the episode seems simple for me. Rin was once innocent and naive. The experiences she had in that episode taught her about the darker parts of life and what becoming a mage would involve her in. This episode filled the gaps for me and helped me appreciate who Rin is in FSN moreso.

Debates I've had with friends IRL have crossed the 'is it necessary to have played FSN to be able to watch F/Z?' Generally, no. Enough is apparent to watch it independetly/first. However, some scenes/moments won't make as much sense without having played FSN, particularly the Heavens Feel route. And that's going to be something those not as familiar with the Fate universe will have to put up with all the way. Tokiomi's reasons for his actions make more sense knowing FSN explanations, but there not necessary per se.

10 seems out of place to some perhaps since 6-8 were so intense and emotionally detached? Frankly I appreciate Rin's part in the saga to remind the viewer that there are people involved and that some of the major players in the Holy Grail War have been forced to harden their hearts in order to claim the prize. Frankly, 6 almost killed my interest in the series and 7-8 didn't help much. 9 and particularly 10 have revived my interest. And I think 11 will if that preview indicates what I think it did.

Spoiler for Episode 11 theory:

Saber, Rider and Gilgamesh drink and talk kingship, anyone? I see their corresponding Command Spells. I see them commenting about being kings. I think it's plausible.

The themes behind the difference in ideals/goals for the Kiritsugu-Kotomine and Waver-Archibald feuds will hopefully appear in the near future. Although there's only 3 episodes left to the 3 month break in airing ufotable are taking to prepare for the 2nd half, so that may be a while. I seriously hope they do some justice to Kotomine soon, though. He was a darn good character in FSN but so far he's been pretty darn weak in F/Z.

[Proto]

He was a darn good character in FSN but so far he's been pretty darn weak in F/Z.

That's kind of ironic given that other people feel the complete opposite. Personally I think it's interesting to see the gradual changes in his character as he becomes what he was in FS/N

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Kotomine in F/Z is a complete buzzkill compared to what he is in FSN

(...)

I seriously hope they do some justice to Kotomine soon, though. He was a darn good character in FSN but so far he's been pretty darn weak in F/Z.

10 seems an episode that would be appreciated more by those who have played the FSN game and understand what Rin became, but not so much for those starting their journey in the Fate universe with Zero. The purpose of the episode seems simple for me. Rin was once innocent and naive. The experiences she had in that episode taught her about the darker parts of life and what becoming a mage would involve her in. This episode filled the gaps for me and helped me appreciate who Rin is in FSN moreso.

Double standard much? What you appreciate Fate/Zero's done for Rin in this episode, the show has been doing for Kotomine from the start. Much more so than with Rin, F/Z is about how Kotomine came to be the man he is in F/SN. Even Urobuchi himself highlighted that as the biggest draw of the show to fans of the original F/SN.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GeostigmataShi

If you read the LN
and still think Tokiomi don't love them as human... i don't understand what you mean by love.
maybe you mean pampered not love? ;p
it clearly show that Tokiomi is just bad at showing his love

No, being a decent human father who would raise their children with the basic consideration is parental love. Tokiomi is a good magus patriach, but utterly fails as a good father. Smiling and displays of affection to your children =/= pampering. Those are basic (VERY basic) displays of fatherly love).

Spoiler for Prologue FSN slight stuff?:

Play FSN, you'll see Rin stating clearly he never did any of that to her. He only patted her head for the first time before going to the Holy Grail War. So no hugs, no laughter, so I see nothing remotely human about his love for her.

No good family man would wish to go to the Root.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

As others have said, there is a need to create links to FSN from F/Z. So far what has been done seems to be accomplishing that. 10 seems an episode that would be appreciated more by those who have played the FSN game and understand what Rin became, but not so much for those starting their journey in the Fate universe with Zero. The purpose of the episode seems simple for me. Rin was once innocent and naive. The experiences she had in that episode taught her about the darker parts of life and what becoming a mage would involve her in. This episode filled the gaps for me and helped me appreciate who Rin is in FSN moreso.

IMO, the purpose of this episode seems that Rin was popular before, then was popular after. Aside of moe filler. There was absolutely no change about her in the beginning of the episode and the conclusion. None whatsoever. There was Zero character development for Rin Tohsaka. She was only displaying her power, that isn't character depth. I thought the original scene did better to understand her and feel compassion, maybe even understand why she stopped disobeying her family. They could have expanded how her failure changed her personality (because she doesn't act the same anymore). It could have layered her more if they expanded her "messing up" in the most crucial time trait.

This one made her extremely annoying to me. It was a good opportunity wasted.

Furthermore, I don't get what you say about emotional attachment. I'm familiar with the Visual Novels and the Light novels, so I'm fond of most characters (well, not of Sola, Kayneth, Tokiomi, Aoi, etc), but a friend of mine, who had her first Fate experience, is already attached to Kariya, Iris, Saber, Lancer, Waver, Kirei, Sakura... thanks to Zero yet she wanted to strangle the daylights out Rin who she had previously thought cute thanks to this episode... :/

So what you're trying to say is hardly universal (that this episode isn't as higher rated universally as the others should be telling).

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Double standard much? What you appreciate Fate/Zero's done for Rin in this episode, the show has been doing for Kotomine from the start. Much more so than with Rin, F/Z is about how Kotomine came to be the man he is in F/SN. Even Urobuchi himself highlighted that as the biggest draw of the show to fans of the original F/SN.

Kirei >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rin (also most Fate characters, IMO ).

ETA: I missed this.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Really... ?

Yes. Kariya is what basically you would have as a good 'human' father (risking his life for the girls, saving Rin's and trying his hardest to save Sakura's). However, his utter disdain for magi nature is indeed what blinds him. He's trying so hard to go 'against' it. I won't reveal more due to spoilers.

Tokiomi, on the other hand, only considers the magi POV of upbringing... which is also fatal.

They are foils... Like Kayneth and Waver. Like Kirei and Kiritsugu.

[Proto]

Play FSN, you'll see Rin stating clearly he never did any of that to her. [/quote]

And I keep saying that such displays of affection are not really necessary for being a good parent. Heck, I can personally relate to this: I can count the times my mother did that to me during my childhood with the finger in my hands and toes. Does that mean I consider her a bad parent? No, it just means she's not particularly affectionate. Every person is its own world. (although recently she's started to crave for emotional affection now that we are all grown up. Suffice to say that it scares the hell out of me every time she wants a hug. )

No good family man would wish to go to the Root.

Nobody said otherwise. However, it's not like humans only have one facet or priority in their lives.

[Alaya]

@Thess

The first answer in the spoiler is quite, well, spolierish since that scene is gonna happen in Fate/Zero too. I suggest you remove it first then put it later.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Proto

That's kind of ironic given that other people feel the complete opposite. Personally I think it's interesting to see the gradual changes in his character as he becomes what he was in FS/N

People are entitled to feel how they feel. That doesn't stop the fact that there's still a significant proportion that feel Kotomine has not been interesting. The one things Fate/Zero fans in my area have been asking me is 'What's the deal with Kotomine?!' I'm talking about ones that love the show but are utterly confused as to what Kotomine's purpose and motivations are. Even after I explain it to them in a non-spoilerish way, they are still unfazed by Kotomine. If anything, the characters people I know are liking most are Saber and Irisviel. Kotomine is bringing up the rear for most of them. What I will give Kiritsugu is that his anti-hero style has been drawn up well in Episodes 6-8. Kotomine really doesn't have much appeal for me when most of his scenes are either ranting, hiding or sulking.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Double standard much? What you appreciate Fate/Zero's done for Rin in this episode, the show has been doing for Kotomine from the start. Much more so than with Rin, F/Z is about how Kotomine came to be the man he is in F/SN. Even Urobuchi himself highlighted that as the biggest draw of the show to fans of the original F/SN.

That's completely dependent on personal opinion. Frankly I think the subtle nuances Nasu wove into Kotomine's character in the FSN are far more intriguing than what Urobuchi has done with him. I know the Kotomine - Kiritsugu feud is the core of Fate/Zero and meant to be its main appeal from his perspective. But I know plenty of people who find the Saber - Irisviel bond the most appealing thing, others finding Caster's insanity the most appealing, Rider's manliness, Lancer's pheromonal prowess, etc. Just because Urobuchi said he wanted Kotomine to be the main drawcard doesn't mean that it's the aspect he did best. Kotomine's personality and motivations may fit Urobuchi's desire for all characters to fall into the abyss as he said in the author's notes in the Fate/Zero novels and interviews on how he writes - but that doesn't make them the most interesting by default. I still feel that Kotomine is not that intriguing yet and I'm not alone in that view.

Originally Posted by Thess

IMO, the purpose of this episode seems that Rin was popular before, then was popular after. Aside of moe filler. There was absolutely no change about her in the beginning of the episode and the conclusion. None whatsoever. There was Zero character development for Rin Tohsaka. She was only displaying her power, that isn't character depth. I thought the original scene did better to understand her and feel compassion, maybe even understand why she stopped disobeying her family. They could have expanded how her failure changed her personality (because she doesn't act the same anymore). It could have layered her more if they expanded her "messing up" in the most crucial time trait.

If that's what you want to believe then so be it. Can tell you other people who are familiar with all the routes of the FSN game feel that this provides a bit of a foil to how cold and calculating Rin initially is in FSN. The idea there was zero character development for Rin is just delusional. That episode was her first step in understand what it takes to be a mage and what a harsh, death-ridden path it will be and works into the type of person Nasu developed Rin into. However, I do agree with you that it probably doesn't make as much sense to those who haven't played FSN. That's probably Urobuchi assuming backstory when he shouldn't have been.

[GeostigmataShi]

Smiling and displays of affection to your children is not always a good father

Originally Posted by Thess

No good family man would wish to go to the Root.

why not?
it's not like you have to priority your family to be a good father, heck 99% father in this world put family second to his dream

Originally Posted by Thess

Yes. Kariya is what basically you would have as a good 'human' father (risking his life for the girls, saving Rin's and trying his hardest to save Sakura's). However, his utter disdain for magi nature is indeed what blinds him. He's trying so hard to go 'against' it. I won't reveal more due to spoilers.

No he isn't, he may only be a decent father
While you may be raised with love and all
he'll miss the real important things.

Stern father =/= bad father
Daughter-Loving-Father =/= good father
Both are decent father : |, just different type

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by GeostigmataShi

why not?
it's not like you have to priority your family to be a good father, heck 99% father in this world put family second to his dream

The answer will be quite a huge spoiler, but if you really want to know I can send you a PM.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

If it wasn't for the banter between Caster and Saber/Lancer, those episodes would have been lax for me.

Whatever you are smoking, I want some too

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Whatever you are smoking, I want some too

Water with a twist of lemon, a lock of Saber's hair, a dash of Lancer's pheromones and a sprinkle of Irisviel's lipstick.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Water with a twist of lemon, a lock of Saber's hair, a dash of Lancer's pheromones and a sprinkle of Irisviel's lipstick.

Hm, sounds something that can drive a man insane

But seriously, at least censored that fight was the worst of the three that took place during those two episodes.