Hi no Tori - Licensed or not?

[GHDpro]

Froth-Bite recently released the first episode of Hi no Tori.
At the present moment we haven't added it to the site yet because
we are having trouble determining if there is enough reason to
consider this series as licensed or not.

On the one hand there is this article on Anime News Network that
mentions that this anime is co-produced by New York's WNET/ Thirteen PBS station.

But on the other hand... they're not really a known "player" in the US anime industry.
Also, non of the usual license-news sources currently really considers this series
as licensed, such as AnimeOnDVD or ANN's own Anime Encyclopedia.

In fact, one site which usually absolutely does not list anime that is licensed,
EnviroSphere currently does list F-B's release!

EnviroSphere's Rumor List also contains the info from the ANN article and in even
greater detail: http://www.envirosphere.com/glrl.php?id=708, but at present they
are marking it as a Rumor.

So what should we do? Based on EnviroSphere's decision I'd say AnimeSuki
should list it. But in this case I'd like some feedback from what others think...
(before we repeat the Maburaho incident in reverse)

[teh_suck]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

Froth-Bit recently released the first episode of Hi no Tori.
At the present moment we haven't added it to the site yet because
we are having trouble determining if there is enough reason to
consider this series as licensed or not.

On the one hand there is this article on Anime News Network that
mentions that this anime is co-produced by New York's WNET/ Thirteen PBS station.

But on the other hand... they're not really a known "player" in the US anime industry.
Also, non of the usual license-news sources currently really considers this series
as licensed, such as AnimeOnDVD or ANN's own Anime Encyclopedia.

In fact, one site which usually absolutely does not list anime that is licensed,
EnviroSphere currently does list F-B's release!

EnviroSphere's Rumor List also contains the info from the ANN article and in even
greater detail: http://www.envirosphere.com/glrl.php?id=708, but at present they
are marking it as a Rumor.

So what should we do? Based on EnviroSphere's decision I'd say AnimeSuki
should list it. But in this case I'd like some feedback from what others think...
(before we repeat the Maburaho incident in reverse)

I say licensed, hands down.

[Yamano667]

Its licensed

[jennwenn]

I won't dispute the fact that Hi no Tori is licensed, but this is such a weird license. A New York PBS station? Aren't they a regional company? Are they going to air this throughout the USA, on all local PBS stations nationwide? How exactly does PBS operate? I thought each PBS station was partially autonomous....

Do PBS have TV airing rights or DVD distribution rights or both? Sometimes these are different, as in the case of Astroboy (Sony and Cartoon Network) or Sailor Moon. I don't think a TV station would have the capability to distribute DVDs. Will they sell this to a distributor, like a regular anime company?

I'm so confused as to how this would work. And I'm a little worried that PBS won't really care/undestand the demand for unedited, subtitled DVD releases...

EDIT:
Okay I've done a little research.

PBS itself can distribute and do the whole shebang. Here's a quote from the company profile:
"PBS oversees program acquisition, distribution and promotion; education services; new media ventures; fundraising support; engineering and technology development; and video marketing. "

However, Hi no Tori is not co-produced by PBS but by Thirteen/WNET New York. While 13/WNET shares programming with PBS, they also make and produce their own programming which they may or may not share (or sell?) to PBS. I don't see any indication that 13/WNET itself can produce DVDs...

13/WNET's website:
http://www.thirteen.org/index.php

I'm still confused as to the relationship between PBS and Thirteen/WNET, aside from the fact that they are both public TV stations with some affiliation...

Basically my question is, does saying Hi no Tori is co-produced by Thirteen/WNET mean the same as saying it is licensed by Thirteen WNET or that it is licensed by PBS?

[NoSanninWa]

I believe that PBS is an organization that many public broadcasting stations belong to. It provides them additional power by being able to get acquire and produce more expensive programs as a group. As far as I know they have never subtitled Japanese programming by themselves.

As someone who lives in the New York area I would like to say that WNET has never shown any anime. I find the idea of them showing anime to be a little bizarre as they mostly just show documentaries, classic movies, masterpiece theater and old british sitcoms. I'm inclined to believe that they haven't licensed it even though they are devoting some money to the project. In my mind only three possibilities are likely:

1. Maybe they just want to join the business and resell the license later.
2. The R2 DVD will have subtitles and they intend to show that on PBS. (Since they aren't going to subtitle it.)
3. PBS thinks that it is a good investment.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

As someone who lives in the New York area I would like to say that WNET has never shown any anime. I find the idea of them showing anime to be a little bizarre as they mostly just show documentaries, classic movies, masterpiece theater and old british sitcoms. I'm inclined to believe that they haven't licensed it even though they are devoting some money to the project. In my mind only three possibilities are likely

They also show a pretty large number of children's programming (courtesy of PBS) and classical music concerts too.

But anyway, NHK happens to be Japan's equivalent of PBS, and in recent years these two, along with regional networks like WNET and even public TV in Europe have actually been working together quite a bit, mainly on the shared production of HDTV programs to promote the medium. Thus a lot of programs have that aired on either NHK, WNET or general PBS stations have indeed been co-funded by them. For example (just one of the few that I was able to find on a search through Google) there is a documentary on NHK in 2000 about the director Akira Kurosawa that was funded by WNET and BBC. There are a few classical music concerts on WNET that in turn have been funded by NHK.

So really, the fact that this anime is funded by WNET doesn't mean much, since they've been doing that a lot with NHK shows already, and vice versa. It certainly doesn't indicate that WNET will be airing that over here or something, since they almost never do that with the other NHK programs that they've funded.

[NoSanninWa]

Thank you. I was unaware of the PBS-NHK connection. Suddenly this coproducing makes a lot more sense... and it sounds a lot less likely to be licensed. If they coproduce a lot of other shows that air on NHK without ever airing them on WNET, then there is no reason to consider that this is any different.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

In fact, one site which usually absolutely does not list anime that is licensed,EnviroSphere currently does list F-B's release!

EnviroSphere's Rumor List also contains the info from the ANN article and in even
greater detail: http://www.envirosphere.com/glrl.php?id=708, but at present they
are marking it as a Rumor.

So what should we do? Based on EnviroSphere's decision I'd say AnimeSuki
should list it. But in this case I'd like some feedback from what others think...
(before we repeat the Maburaho incident in reverse)

Being the original writer of that entry in the GLRL, I can tell everyone the reasoning behind it actually being added as a rumor. IMO, it is licensed. However, there was not enough evidence to suggest what PBS was planning to do with the series. Therefore, it was chosen to add it to the rumor list since we did not yet confirm that Thirteen plans to bring it over. As NoSanninWa said, WNET basically does not show japanese produced anime. WNET is a PBS station. I also posted this on the same day. Since it was not in the licensed list but in the rumor list, it got added to envirosphere since that is the policy to list anything not licensed. Maybe someone should actually contact thirteen and ask what they plan to do.

[wraith985]

I think a key distinction in licensing is whether or not a series is licensed with intent to distribute . Obviously, when Bandai and ADV and such places license anime, it is with selling DVDs in mind - it's all they do in terms of anime. That judgment of intent isn't quite so clear in this case. I think this aspect has to be explored. The purpose of fansubs is to encourage people to buy the *R1* DVDs when they come out. That's why most groups stop their work as soon as a series is licensed. That's also the reason that KGNE could still be listed on AnimeSuki despite the presence of R2 DVDs - there were no plans for (and still are no plans for) a R1 DVD release. As long as Thirteen/WNET is not planning a R1 DVD release as of now, I don't see the problem. As of right now, there will be no way for anybody to get a R1 DVD of Hi no Tori. As such, fansubs are the only place they can turn to watch the series.

Additionally, we don't even know the role that Thirteen/WNET plays. "Coproducing" can mean a lot of things, very few of which imply that they somehow own the distribution rights. Until this aspect of the situation is cleared up, I don't think there's enough reason to consider Hi no Tori licensed.

Therefore, I think that AnimeSuki should list Hi no Tori on the main page until R1 distribution plans (if any) are announced.

[Tabiree]

Consider it licensed, best to stay out of the firing line.

[AG3]

Why consider this series licensed, when there's been no official statement of such? Gundam series almost always gets licensed, but AnimeSuki lists them all the same until the licenses are announced publicly. Yes, I know Gundam series aren't usually listed as being co-produced with an American company, but still...

[brightman]

OK, according to this page: http://www.worldscreen.com/newscurre...ilename=nhk305 , Hi no Tori is NHK's "first major high-definition anime series", which pretty much confirmed my theory that this co-production directly relates to the PBS/NHK agreement for the coproduction of HDTV programs (mentioned here: http://www.nhk.or.jp/pr/update/update/u65_07.html )

The full quote is

The Japanese public broadcaster has also scheduled its first major high-definition anime series, Hinotori (The Phoenix), also for the NHK Animation Theater. The co-production with Thirteen/WNET, which launches in April, is based on the work of Osamu Tezuka, the creator of the classic anime series Astro Boy.

And it adds a note in the end that says

NHK is seeking international sales on both series.

So the fact that it mentions that WNET is a co-producer of this series AND the fact that it says NHK is still trying to sell the series overseas pretty much confirms the fact that the series is NOT licensed yet, and the co-production with WNET has nothing to do with distribution rights. I hope that clears up this matter for now.

[Gold_Rogers]

Originally Posted by brightman

OK, according to this page: http://www.worldscreen.com/newscurre...ilename=nhk305 , Hi no Tori is NHK's "first major high-definition anime series", which pretty much confirmed my theory that this co-production directly relates to the PBS/NHK agreement for the coproduction of HDTV programs (mentioned here: http://www.nhk.or.jp/pr/update/update/u65_07.html )

The full quote is



And it adds a note in the end that says


So the fact that it mentions that WNET is a co-producer of this series AND the fact that it says NHK is still trying to sell the series overseas pretty much confirms the fact that the series is NOT licensed yet, and the co-production with WNET has nothing to do with distribution rights. I hope that clears up this matter for now.

Yup, from that it sounds like WNET is producing the series (co-producing), not licensing it for distribution. There is no evidence they hold the DVD rights or even plan to distribute in N. America.

[jennwenn]

Originally Posted by brightman

OK, according to this page: http://www.worldscreen.com/newscurre...ilename=nhk305 , Hi no Tori is NHK's "first major high-definition anime series", which pretty much confirmed my theory that this co-production directly relates to the PBS/NHK agreement for the coproduction of HDTV programs (mentioned here: http://www.nhk.or.jp/pr/update/update/u65_07.html )

So the fact that it mentions that WNET is a co-producer of this series AND the fact that it says NHK is still trying to sell the series overseas pretty much confirms the fact that the series is NOT licensed yet, and the co-production with WNET has nothing to do with distribution rights. I hope that clears up this matter for now.

I was just going to post about how I wish Hi no Tori was high definition too, but you mean Hi no Tori was made for HDTV?! Is this the first case of anime being HD? This is landmark!

Wow, now if I could actually watch anime on HDTV in the US (which I think only PBS have HDTV channels, and they are frickin amazing), I'd be begging for WNET/Thirteen to distribute and air this...

Can HD quality be preserved on DVD release? (I'm not too clear about how it works.) If so, this marks a whole new level of quality for anime! And Hi no Tori is highly appropriate for HDTV too.

EDIT- I looked it up and (Gee should really do this before I post...) ADV's Anime Network airs some anime in HD, but they are movies, not TV series.

[Rarity]

So the fact that it mentions that WNET is a co-producer of this series AND the fact that it says NHK is still trying to sell the series overseas pretty much confirms the fact that the series is NOT licensed yet, and the co-production with WNET has nothing to do with distribution rights. I hope that clears up this matter for now.

I disagree. The Kurosawa show certainly was aired on PBS. I saw it on my local station HD loop. Same with Over Alaska, playing now on my local station HD loop, which was a co-production of NHK and KCTS.

I think there is little chance that this won't be broadcast nationwide in HDTV on PBS. Are there any WNET co-productions with NHK that haven't been broadcast on PBS?

Can HD quality be preserved on DVD release? (I'm not too clear about how it works.) If so, this marks a whole new level of quality for anime! And Hi no Tori is highly appropriate for HDTV too.

No, it cannot be preserved. In short, DVD resolution is 720x480, while HDTV is 1920x1080, or 6x greater. There are some technical caveats to this with regard to quality.

ADV's Anime Network airs some anime in HD, but they are movies, not TV series.

INHD airs HD anime series. However, those are all dubs, IIRC. PBS hasn't shied away from subs in the past, so it's possible we'll get an HD high quality sub on this one.

[nubby]

Originally Posted by Rarity

No, it cannot be preserved. In short, DVD resolution is 720x480, while HDTV is 1920x1080, or 6x greater. There are some technical caveats to this with regard to quality.

Which is exactly why they're trying to specify an HD-DVD standard. HD is the future along with blue lasers.

[crumja]

First of all, listing the series on animesuki is pretty much a moot point because there's a forum post with the group's name, meaning that they can download the file. Well, how can you pass up such a great series anyway ?

Then again, I don't consider this one licensed yet. Until there is an official statement on the status of the series, it should be considered fair game. Again, I will use animesuki listing Gundam Seed and the other Gundam series when Bandai has announced that all of those will be brought to the US for distribution.

About the HDTV version of HnT, resolution differences won't stop the show from being released on DVD. There are smart ways to circumvent that by resize+cropping, adding black bars, and even stretching the video.

[jennwenn]

Originally Posted by Rarity

No, it cannot be preserved. In short, DVD resolution is 720x480, while HDTV is 1920x1080, or 6x greater. There are some technical caveats to this with regard to quality.

INHD airs HD anime series. However, those are all dubs, IIRC. PBS hasn't shied away from subs in the past, so it's possible we'll get an HD high quality sub on this one.

So the only way non-Japanese viewers can see Hi no Tori in the absolutely best, original quality would be too watch on some HDTV channel? (Until they get those HD-DVDs out.)

Okay, now I'm delving into a slightly OT animation production question:
Is there a difference between simply airing a regular anime on an HDTV channel and specifically producing an anime for HDTV quality? Doesn't it take special equipment and cameras to produce HDTV video, and therefore animation would need these special cameras and equipment as well to film the animation cels? Or is there another digital way to do this with scanners/computers/whatever to preserve the high resolution? How does it work with animation?

[Rarity]

So the only way non-Japanese viewers can see Hi no Tori in the absolutely best, original quality would be too watch on some HDTV channel? (Until they get those HD-DVDs out.)

Yes. They would have to watch the HDTV channel with an HDTV. In the US, they can watch it on PBS when it airs. At that time, those outside the US could have somebody record it to hard disk for them (lossless). But keep in mind that each second is 2.7 MB of data, so each episode of Hi no Tori will be a 4 GB file. Don't know if anybody will set up a torrent for that.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Rarity

I disagree. The Kurosawa show certainly was aired on PBS. I saw it on my local station HD loop. Same with Over Alaska, playing now on my local station HD loop, which was a co-production of NHK and KCTS.

Really? I guess I should start watching more PBS then. The Kurosawa show was aired on 2000, so even if they did show it I guess I wouldn't remember if an ad pop up.

But it still doesn't explain why it says NHK is trying to sell it overseas if PBS already have broadcast rights to it.