2010-12-09, 15:25 | Link #3701 | |||||
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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As for the loops afterwards, you really think Kyon should just say, "Oh hey, I'm the main character, so it's really me that needs to do something to end the summer, so let's figure out what it is that I need to do"? That's a little meta, don't you think? Kyon's gotten by thus far by doing exactly what the others have told him. They're the ones in the know, after all. So when they all say, "Hey, there's something HARUHI needs to do before the summer can end," why in the world would he hear that as, "There's something KYON needs to do"?? Quote:
Yes, Kyon is often at the focal point of the craziness. NO, Kyon is not the cause of the craziness. One, two, three years ago, Kyon probably blew off his homework in the exact same way that he did during E8. That's his character; that's how he would act. Endless Eight did NOT happen because Kyon wanted to keep going to boring movies and working part-time jobs. In fact, I don't think I can remember a single instance of him appearing enthusiastic about the things Haruhi wanted to do. Endless Eight happened because HARUHI had more things to do before the summer could end. If there's no evidence to indicate that she wanted to do homework, it's because "I want to do homework with everyone!" is a flat-out stupid thing to think (not that stupid thoughts are in any way beyond Haruhi, but you get what I'm saying). That's all. That's the explanation that makes the most sense, and what do you know? It's the one that was given, too. Quote:
This is the second time you've seemed to think that characters know what the readers know, so let me assure you: That's not how stories work. If you assume otherwise, you completely destroy what a story is. Quote:
EDIT: His quote, from the movie, was, "I suppose that puts me right in the middle of everything now...My time as an observing bystander is completely in the past now. I now stand alongside the other elites of the SOS Brigade as a protector of the world."
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Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-12-09 at 23:29. |
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2010-12-09, 17:00 | Link #3702 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2010-12-09, 22:09 | Link #3703 | |||
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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2010-12-11, 05:06 | Link #3704 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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anyone knows when full version of volume 10 is getting released? last i know it was due before the end of 2010... we're like 20 days away from that... but i dont think we're gonna get it this year...
P.S. someone should update the OP.
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2010-12-12, 00:13 | Link #3705 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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But I do take issue that Asakura has a homocidal mean streak. We must remember that the Data Entity is as far above us as we to the ants you crunch underfoot everytime you go out. What's THEIR life value to you? Arthur Clarke mentions that any entity that's tens of millions years beyond us is really going out of its way to want to watch and research us, and the fact that Asakura seems to've self-evolved in adapting to our level so much (past Nagato) is a credit to her colors. Asakura had her (seeming overzealous) faults, but hey, she developed vanity, pride and self-determination -- something none of the other alien girls seemed to've tried. It must be uber difficult for a hyper-being to ape a way lesser life form; how well do you think you can pass for a roach among roaches? Asakura's flaw was she became too ambitious strutting her developing independence (look at her drive, not her method) -- I dunno, maybe to score brownie points with the Big Kahuna upstairs, but it was creative self-initative regardless. Maybe clumsily so, but Asakura was on her way to becoming "human" and maybe that was way beyond her job resume. The Data Entity could've simply disarmed Asakura or pulled the plug on her powers or slapped her wrist, but instead they beam her up. Why? Was her self-evolving a bad example or a threat to someone? Just asking! Anyway, I think hadn't Haruhi unwittingly seeded Asakura the idea of going after Kyon, Asakura might've continued to marinate in the human world with more human experiences and better exploring emotions and maybe even became curious about them enough to try dating guys and beyond, which really would've made her maybe the most interesting character in the story, so I guess she had to go. |
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2010-12-12, 10:15 | Link #3706 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
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2010-12-12, 23:45 | Link #3707 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Still, I think that the most anomalous part of Asakura's actions is that she seems to be completely unable to comprehend that humans should devote any effort towards remaining alive, or have any instinct to do so, as evidenced by her confusion at Kyon's reluctance to be killed. Even bacteria do everything within their ability to stay alive when they detect a threat. As a result, instead of the expected reaction of "I want to kill you, so why won't you stay still so I can do it more easily?", her reaction is "Why don't you share my opinion that you should perish?", as though his desire to live was something unexpected.
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2010-12-13, 11:20 | Link #3708 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
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Actually, 1 and 2 are the same thing. The IDE has no understanding of human emotions so they are seen as buggy data. And Yuki is slowly becoming more human. |
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2010-12-13, 12:04 | Link #3709 | |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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All three characters were essentially equal in the first book. The showed up, they each played a role that Haruhi was searching for, and the each had their own way of proving to Kyon that they were what they said they were. From that perspective, Asakura was equivalent to the Celestials in terms of her role in the story. She didn't last any longer because she was never meant to last any longer. Heck, even her cameo in Disappearance was nearly a literal rehash of her first appearance, rather than anything truly new. (Yeah, yeah, she's protecting Yuki instead of fighting her, but that's more of a detail than anything else.) Well, there is a subtle difference, though I admit it may not apply here. Perhaps the best way to put it is that all emotions are anomalous behavior, but not all anomalous behavior can be chalked up to emotion.
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2010-12-13, 14:05 | Link #3710 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Asakura doesn't understand what smiling is for, nor does she care; she only knows that smiling makes her popular. So she kept smiling, all the time, even when trying to kill someone. I mean, why shouldn't she? (That reminded me of a Gary Larson Cartoon of a Zoologist attempting to infiltrate a society of bears by wearing a bear body suit, for some strange reason...)
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2010-12-13, 19:24 | Link #3711 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Maybe Asakura's "puppeteer" was trying to sneak his/its own agenda under the Data Entity's nose, or maybe so to not to get caught he/it simply let go of her reins to be a loose cannon doing his/its bidding. I have a feeling that this is a reason that makes logical sense why Asakura was beamed out of here instead of being de-powered and reprimanded. Asakura's "master puppetter" crossed some kind of line in the D.E. club and got yanked from messing in the human world -- also maybe for contaminating him/itself human traits and "primitive" thought? (like how the "Q" centure any of their own who assumes human qualities?) and hence Asakura's strings got cut -- assuming she hadn't already evolved being automous from her master by then before he/it cruelly cut her loose to face police-lady Yuki. To me it was overkill deleting Asakura from the human world instead of just pulling her powers and spanking her to toe the line - surely the D.E. had the power to do that than causing more undesired ripples of confusion and upset in her local human society by just making her vanish, so her puppeteer master must've committed one big no-no in the D.E. world. Since I doubt the D.E. would've (if it had any sense) endowed any standalone "agent" with the awesome powers Asakura exhibited free on Earth -- and begging for misuse or a rouge, it kind of builds the case that she's indeed (at least mostly) the interface puppet of a being channeling powers to her before he/it got cannned by the D.E. Sure, I'd love to think Asakura had her "own mind" instead of just being plugged into another, but that'd explain a lot of her seemingly peculiar nonchalant reaction while getting dissolved -- and her telling "sour grapes" warning about Yuki to Kyon. At least Asakura's puppeteer had sass and daring and a rebel streak (I'd loved to've met that alien! And imagine if it learned to love a human via Asakura!), unlike Yuki's "puppeteer" being far more consevative using its/his human interface to pass the human world. So maybe when we stare into these D.E. babes' pretty eyes, are we really staring back periscope-like into the single eye of a octopoid thingie trying to learn the ropes of better infiltrating -- or bettering the human world? I'd love to know of all the draft concepts the author had of them! Yea, I wanna eat a Asakura manga! |
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2010-12-14, 05:40 | Link #3712 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Asakura had to be removed completely because even depowered she would have continued to be a threat to Yuki's faction's goal of observing Haruhi's "natural" actions. Short of a mindwipe or an enforceable ban on interfering, even a depowered Asakura would still try to stir up reactions from Haruhi--after all, knifing Kyon requires no superhuman powers, only a little stealth.
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2010-12-14, 11:13 | Link #3713 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
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Interfaces
I don't think that Yuki and the other interfaces are like puppets. They are what we hope to achieve eventually with our probes when the AI is capable. They send data to and receive requests from the IDE, but they determine how to best fulfill those request. Asakura was likely just asked to stir up Haruhi and she decided that the best way was to kill Kyon. And we can get a glimpse into the way the Interfaces feel from Yuki's stories in "Editor-in-Chief★Straight Ahead!" It seems that they were created from the IDE, more like a disguise, like in Avatar, than a robot or puppet. She went from being a small anonymous part of the IDE to being an individual. Hence her name. Millions of snow flakes and every one is different. And, for her, returning to the IDE is the same as death as illustrated by the coffin in her last story.
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2010-12-14, 11:42 | Link #3714 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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2010-12-16, 03:44 | Link #3715 | |
Zettai Ryouiki Lover
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Bay Area
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2010-12-16, 11:34 | Link #3717 | |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-590 It ends rather unsatisfactorily, with the writer deciding that while it's the author's right to take his sweet time, it's the reader's right to expect him to get a move on. If nothing else, though, it's decent food for thought. As for my own thoughts, let me assure you that writing can be very hard. My own writing experience suggests that writing is about 50% planning, 30% writing, and 20% editing. Furthermore, you get even less time to focus on those things when you're getting wrapped into being the creative consultant for an anime and a movie. On the other hand, it's very hard for me to argue that Tanigawa is trying to nail the quality when he clearly didn't bother for some of the other stories. A lot of them are just "lolz randum normal event that haruhi makes wacky" (the baseball game, making the movie, the island getaway). The story that's generally considered the best of the series, Disappearance, is essentially a rehash of the original Melancholy (the major point being a god remaking the world but undoing it for Kyon, though other major similarities exist). The other stories that I've read are just lackluster. I also have a hard time believing that the delay is because Tanigawa is really working for a non-cliche, non-mundane ending, especially since that's never been the case in the past. They say that good characters write themselves, which means it's rather telling that the story focus seems to be shifting away from Haruhi. (And don't tell me that people liking her proves she's a fantastic character; people like Bugs Bunny and his character development pretty much stopped at "What's up, doc?") But that's fine, right? As long as new challenges keep appearing, it's alright for the story to progress! Oh...but these new people are the anti-SOS Brigade. An alien, a time traveler, an esper, and a Haruhi. Cool story. Okay, I seem to have drifted off into what probably sounds like malice to most people. But the truth is, I'm seriously worried that Tanigawa has written himself into a corner with his characters. When your original intent is a standalone novel, it can make continuous development very difficult. My full explanation for that is somewhere else, so let me just sum it up by saying that as Haruhi becomes less involved, so must the rest of the SOS Brigade. And the more frustrating thing is that instead of expanding the world in any meaningful way, he just copied what worked the first time! More aliens, espers, and time travelers? What about the demons and ghosts and sliders and whatever else Kyon said he didn't believe in? Anyway, the TL;DR version: Tanigawa is taking as long as he is because his concepts and ideas are still rooted within the scope of a single light novel, and those are starting to be stretched to their limits. He released a teaser so that people would say, "Oh man, Yuki's out of commission? How's Tanigawa going to get them out of that one?" And then Tanigawa sat back, looked what he had, and thought, "How's Tanigawa going to get them out of this one."
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Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-12-16 at 11:44. |
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2010-12-16, 17:27 | Link #3719 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Last edited by quigonkenny; 2010-12-16 at 17:42. |
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2010-12-16, 17:55 | Link #3720 |
One PUNCH!
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Good point. He should start with The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya thread first.
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shounen, sneaker bunko, seinen, light novels, manga |
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