Macross Frontier Movie Discussion

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

hmm..Kira and Lacus think 3 ships and 2 gundams can bring peace to both sides also...(in seed) it's anime, where things like these happen

I doubt Ranka had enough genry savvyness for what you are suggesting.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

hmm..Kira and Lacus think 3 ships and 2 gundams can bring peace to both sides also...(in seed) it's anime, where things like these happen

Uh, no my dear... Kira & Lacus had an entire fucking fleet. Get it right.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Okay, we go over the top some times. But when the counter-arguments basically only come to "She´s so PURE and INNOCENT!", it´s easy to get a bit full of oneself.

All the more reason that you (and I mean "you" in the GENERAL sense, I'm not specifically talking to you, Magnus) should feel confident and relaxed in your position, instead of ganging up on people who like Ranka, and constantly throwing insults at the poor little Super Dimension Cinderella.

People with a TRULY superior position don't get upset, and they don't throw insults around. It's only the people who are unsure of their position who get angry at dissenting opinion.

Again, just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Tak

To be fair, Sheryl haters weren't doing a very good job bashing the fairy, even when fact was presented before their self-denying faces. I think many of us can easily recall some of the individuals who exercised this trend of behavior.

Anyone who hates Sheryl just doesn't get it, and is not worth my, your, or anyone's time. End of story.

[justavisitor]

lol magnuskn, maybe you are right

Both (Ranka and Lacus) know the current method won't work, Both try to achieve the impossible, Both trust the ace pilot voiced by the same VA!!!

Oh life is not always fair I guess XD

@Tak
Kira and Lacus only have 3 ships (in seed)...how many ships do the Earth and the Plant have??

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

@Tak
Kira and Lacus only have 3 ships (in seed)...how many ships do the Earth and the Plant have??

You totally disregarded Orb, that and they had a shitload of Astrays with them. You are also wrong about Lacus. Lacus took a very calculated risk in a way that Ranka would never comprehend. Not to mention Lacus and Orb were already pushed into a corner while Ranka was scarcely ever in her position.

Besides, how many did ... er... Ranka brought with her against an entire galaxy worth of Vajra?

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

All the more reason that you (and I mean "you" in the GENERAL sense, I'm not specifically talking to you, Magnus) should feel confident and relaxed in your position, instead of ganging up on people who like Ranka, and constantly throwing insults at the poor little Super Dimension Cinderella.

People with a TRULY superior position don't get upset, and they don't throw insults around. It's only the people who are unsure of their position who get angry at dissenting opinion.

Again, just sayin'.

Well, the heat of the battle and all that. We had some mayor flaming going back-and-forth, after all, and by now the worst offenders have vanished back into their dark damp caves.

I´ll try to keep it down to reasonable criticism. Until the movie, then all bets are off.

[justavisitor]

I remember Orb only let the cagelli ship go and then orb is destroyed...so there is only one ship from orb, archangel and the lacus' ship...how many astrays can be carried by one ship? 20-30 max?? and at one point Zaft sent 50 ginns to chase the Lacus' ship already..where is the food? if they can't bring peace before the supply is gone, do the 3 ships have to provoke both sides so they can "rightfully" interfere?? Or even worse, if both sides reach peace deal without Orb then those 3 ships will become criminal from both sides...then the 3 ships will have to destroy any peace deals without Orb...etc etc..it's anime XD

and I always say that Ranka should have gone with MQ...but on another thought, Ranka probably trusts in her bro's skill, so if they can't convince the bug, her bro can bring her to MF safely...actually that logic is ok if her bro thinks he can do it (and it seems like her bro has no problem with that) so actually it's more ok that I originally thought it would be

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I remember Orb only let the cagelli ship go and then orb is destroyed...so there is only one ship from orb, archangel and the lacus' ship...how many astrays can be carried by one ship? 20-30 max?? and at one point Zaft sent 50 ginns to chase the Lacus' ship already..where is the food? if they can't bring peace before the supply is gone, do the 3 ships have to provoke both sides so they can "rightfully" interfere?? etc etc..it's anime XD

With Kira capable of taking down 20 units in a span of minutes, I don't think 50 ginns presented too much of a problem, especially when you also have the Justice.

Of course, Lacus later convinced PLANT's regular military to fight alongside them and the latter complied.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

and I always say that Ranka should have gone with MQ...but on another thought, Ranka probably trusts in her bro's skill, so if they can't convince the bug, her bro can bring her to MF safely...actually that logic is ok if her bro thinks he can do it (and it seems like her bro has no problem with that) so actually it's more ok that I originally thought it would be

Then there you go, you just admitted that she made a mistake in not taking more than just one lone fighter.

And just because her bro think its ok, does not mean its feasible. I am sorry, but while Banana may be the strongest single pilot in the show, he is not Kira Yamato.

I don't see what you are trying to proof. Lacus had a very clear but limited objective, and took a calculated risk to achieve them. She was also pushed to a corner, with her home in PLANT destroyed, her faction in PLANT dispersed, followed by the near destruction of ORB, she really had little choice. Face it, Ranka was never in her situation. You should just stop while ahead.

Stop trying to use apple to explain a lemon's bitterness. It won't work.

- Tak

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, yes, not reporting Ai-kun is one of the things I totally hold against her. And, in this case, also against Alto, Nanase and everyone else who knew of the thing and wasn´t directly under Graces control.

At the very least she should have shown it to Ozma or Luca or whoever else would have been clearly sympathetic to her cause but been able to find out what the hell Ai-kun was. I mean, an unidentified alien life form on a hermetically sealed environment ship? While being constantly attacked by an unknown alien race? And keeping said unknown alien lifeform a secret? How unimaginably stupid can you get?

We're talking about a teenager with no experience in xenobiology dealing with something the size, shape, and temperament of a friendly squirrel. Yes, the wise thing would have been to report it to the authorities, but how many teenagers in these circumstances would?

It´s possible to cut Alto some slack, because he at least could have been assuming that Ozma had to know about Ai-kun, but it´s a pretty weak explanation. This is also one of Altos completely retarded moments, few as they were.

Quoting Alto: "I don't care if people find out and you get scolded" (gg subs), so he wasn't assuming anything of the sort. Yet you still respect Alto for the exact same failing that you bash Ranka for. O.o

Running off from Frontier with a half-baked plan is also something I hold against her. Yeah, it worked out in the end, but the plan was a plainly suicidal "I hope this works!" type of thing.

So she's faulted for not doing anything, and now she's faulted for trying to do something. Again, a teenager (one who's been sheltered by her older 'brother' for most of her life). From that perspective, along with everything else she's experienced, it's not so bad. One could argue it's even noble.

People very probably died, because she wasn´t there to help them out in engagements. I think she can´t really be held responsible in a legal sense for running off by herself, but at least a good tongue-lashing would be appropiate.

The last time she sang, she drove the Vajra into a frenzied state. No one (except Grace and co., of course) really know how her singing affects the Vajra at this point. She only really learned what was happening by going off on her expedition. So I don't see how it can be argued that she may have cost lives by going. She could have ended up doing far more harm than good if she had stayed.

Okay, we go over the top some times. But when the counter-arguments basically only come to "She´s so PURE and INNOCENT!", it´s easy to get a bit full of oneself.

Not the argument I'm using at all, though.

After all, we worship the Empress of the Galaxy, her royal majesty and our lord and saviour, Sheryl Nome.

This still scares me... O.o

[justavisitor]

initially I thought she should have gone with MQ, but if it is her intention to go have a talk and return home if the talk fails, I actually think her method is ok also...we have seen that VF-27 singlehandedly attacked Vajra's ship...of course the ship and the planet make the huge difference, but VF-27 has fold lol, so if the talk fails, it's ok that VF-27 folds back to home

It's really not as crazy as it sounds like it...and also remember that it's anime, just like 3 ships against hundreds of enemy fleets..as long as we can think of some explanation to convince ourselves (like you say how 3 ships will do fine because of freedom and justice, and how I say VF-27 can fold back home safely) I would say it's okay

but i understand it's hard for us to reach any agreement in regard to Ranka

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

initially I thought she should have gone with MQ, but if it is her intention to go have a talk and return home if the talk fails, I actually think her method is ok also...we have seen that VF-27 singlehandedly attacked Vajra's ship...of course the ship and the planet make the huge difference, but VF-27 has fold lol, so if the talk fails, it's ok that VF-27 folds back to home

She went not knowing what she will face. She went not knowing if she could actually talk to the Vajra, she went not having any sort of concrete intelligence and went there not solely because she thought she could end the war, but because she was disillusioned by what had transpired on Frontier. She basically went to the Vajra home world without even superficial understanding of what would happen.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

It's really not as crazy as it sounds like it...and also remember that it's anime, just like 3 ships against hundreds of enemy fleets..as long as we can think of some explanation to convince ourselves (like you say how 3 ships will do fine because of freedom and justice, and how I say VF-27 can fold back home safely) I would say it's okayunderstand it's hard for us to reach any agreement in regard to Ranka

Again, there weren't just 3 ships, there weren't just the JUSTICE and FREEDOM. Moreover, PLANT ceased fire against the ETERNAL as soon as Kira & co. prevented a nuclear disaster and turned their attention against Earth. Not to mention that Lacus' plan was never to actually destroy her two larger rivals.

I don't see why this is so hard to articulate. Ranka failed in every aspect of preparation and simply done what she did on a whim. Don't compare that to Lacus, its sad.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Snowblind

We're talking about a teenager with no experience in xenobiology dealing with something the size, shape, and temperament of a friendly squirrel. Yes, the wise thing would have been to report it to the authorities, but how many teenagers in these circumstances would?

Uh... I obviously hold the intelligence of the average teenager in much higher regard than you. BTW, Sheryl and Alto and Luca and Michael and Klan also are teenagers.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Quoting Alto: "I don't care if people find out and you get scolded" (gg subs), so he wasn't assuming anything of the sort. Yet you still respect Alto for the exact same failing that you bash Ranka for. O.o

Errr, no? Re-read what I wrote above. "This is also one of Altos completely retarded moments, few as they were. " Otherwise than this incredibly dumb moment, his quota of failing at life was a damn lot lower than hers, though.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

So she's faulted for not doing anything, and now she's faulted for trying to do something. Again, a teenager (one who's been sheltered by her older 'brother' for most of her life). From that perspective, along with everything else she's experienced, it's not so bad. One could argue it's even noble.

It was stupid and suicidal and almost did cause the bad guys to win and completely dominate the whole galaxy. Again, I generally hold teenagers intelligence in higher regard than you seem to do.

And faulting her for doing nothing in one situation and faulting her for doing something incredibly stupid for another situation is completely fine, because the situations are different from another.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

The last time she sang, she drove the Vajra into a frenzied state. No one (except Grace and co., of course) really know how her singing affects the Vajra at this point. She only really learned what was happening by going off on her expedition. So I don't see how it can be argued that she may have cost lives by going. She could have ended up doing far more harm than good if she had stayed.

Actually, the last time she sang before leaving, she managed to control the Vajra into coming to her. I guess this was her reason for supposing that she could communicate with them, but it was a pretty long shot, with pretty horrific consequences if it didn´t function.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

This still scares me... O.o

Dude, it´s not as if I fall down in front of my computer to worship an anime character. Typing out smileys on a forum is easy stuff.

Now, if Sheryl were a real person....

[Yot-chan]

Christ...it's all starting up again, isn't it?

Call me when it simmers down a bit.

[justavisitor]

I really think there are just 3 ships + freedom and justice...and I don't think Lacus's "plan" is so good either...what if both sides decide to stop the war for 6 months?? Then 3 ships would be doomed because they would have no foods left..and they actually have to stir up the war between Earth and the Plant so they can rightfully interfere before their supply is gone

I really think Ranka and Lacus are very similiar...Ranka thinks her singing could work...and if it doesn't, VF-27's fold tech can bring her home...her bro agrees with that..sure there is danger involved, but her bro thinks it's worth to take it...

That's my take of things, and before turning it to be a gundam seed thread, I should stop here, but the bottom line is, Ranka strategy is not as crazy as it sounds...that's what I think and I feel like to write it out to see if there is any one has the similar thought or agrees with me (i know you don't Tak XD) I think I write out what I want to say and maybe I should stop it here

Edit:
Yot-Chan I have no intention to start any heated exchange, and I said I would stop it without reading your comment at first lol

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Christ...it's all starting up again, isn't it?

Call me when it simmers down a bit.

Hey, I am just responding point by point to what was a direct response to my post.

And I refuse to call what Ranka did anything less than completely stupid, at least on those two accounts. I´m not a politician to use fancy pseudo-phrases to make her actions sound less offensive to common sense than what they were.

And I actually think that, yes, this is reasonable discussion of a pertinent plot point. I am not calling her in general stupid ( although "stupendously naive" seems to apply ), but her actions on those two accounts were stupid. Altos actions upon discovering Ai-kun also were tremendously stupid, for that matter.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I really think there are just 3 ships + freedom and justice...and I don't think Lacus's "plan" is so good either...what if both sides decide to stop the war for 6 months?? Then 3 ships would be doomed because they would have no foods left..and they actually have to stir up the war between Earth and the Plant so they can rightfully interfere before their supply is gone

I suggest you go watch the episodes again before making further remarks, because you are making yourself look utterly embarrassing. Moreover, ORB also possessed an entire space colony converted to a supply base for the Lacus faction, which you have dismissed. That station alone was totally capable of being self-sufficient. Later, one of the main reason why Lacus interfered was because PLANT & Earth both planned a showdown.

And I honestly don't see why you would even conjure this ridiculous thought of Plant & Earth holding hands in peace, it would appear that you have entirely disregarded some of the catastrophes that had occurred prior to Lacus taking charge. Like always, you make baseless assumptions without presenting a viable argument for how things would turn out the way they do, according to you.

As for Ranka, it wasn't her bro's decision, it was hers all alone. Her bro had been entirely submissive to her since the first time they met. Banana just never thought about exercising his right to say no, even at that crucial moment when they departed the Frontier. Did he think he can do it? I don't know, but most likely that thought probably never came across his mind.

- Tak

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Uh... I obviously hold the intelligence of the average teenager in much higher regard than you. BTW, Sheryl and Alto and Luca and Michael and Klan also are teenagers.

Yes, and they're guilty of the same mistake (well, Alto, anyway... Sheryl, Michael and Klan never came in contact with Ai-kun... if memory serves), and Luca only knew because of his research on Vajra. Sort of backs up my point.

And I'm not bashing teenagers. They're inexperienced, they make mistakes, and they learn from them. I'm sure you made a few when you were younger, too... I'm pretty sure we all have.

Errr, no? Re-read what I wrote above. "This is also one of Altos completely retarded moments, few as they were. " Otherwise than this incredibly dumb moment, his quota of failing at life was a damn lot lower than hers, though.

I did read that. I also read the post earlier where you defended all of Alto's virtues. My point is that one of the worst things that people say about Ranka is something that several other characters in the series are equally as guilty of, yet they don't catch the flak for it that Ranka does.

It was stupid and suicidal and almost did cause the bad guys to win and completely dominate the whole galaxy. Again, I generally hold teenagers intelligence in higher regard than you seem to do.

I'm not calling teenagers unintelligent at all. I'm calling them inexperienced. See above. And as mistakes go, this one wasn't a horrible one. She was trying to do the right thing and save lives. A overly simplistic plan, sure, but you can't fault her for trying.

Actually, the last time she sang before leaving, she managed to control the Vajra into coming to her. I guess this was her reason for supposing that she could communicate with them, but it was a pretty long shot, with pretty horrific consequences if it didn´t function.

How would the consequences be any different than what ultimately happened? And the point was that it was still uncertain just how she was ultimately affecting the Vajra. And it's not like other characters hadn't made long shots before.

Dude, it´s not as if I fall down in front of my computer to worship an anime character. Typing out smileys on a forum is easy stuff.

See the emoticons. I wasn't being serious, just as I assumed you weren't.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

As for Ranka, it wasn't her bro's decision, it was hers all alone. Her bro had been entirely submissive to her since the first time they met. Banana just never thought about exercising his right to say no, even at that crucial moment when they departed the Frontier. Did he think he can do it? I don't know, but most likely that thought probably never came across his mind.

- Tak

Hm, we had this discussion a few months ago, and to my considerable surprise it was pointed out to me by Father Hentai that Brera deciding on his own to be Rankas pilot was the only alternative to herself having planned to off Frontier with Brera. Seeing as how he only did things for her in the latter half of the series, I can actually imagine him having this spark of initiative because of what she wanted to do.

Not that this leaves her off the hook, because if she really went to Alto assuming he´d fly off with her, it only again shows her stupendous naivitée.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Yes, and they're guilty of the same mistake (well, Alto, anyway... Sheryl, Michael and Klan never came in contact with Ai-kun... if memory serves), and Luca only knew because of his research on Vajra. Sort of backs up my point.

How exactly does this back up your point? Please explain in detail. ^^

Originally Posted by Snowblind

And I'm not bashing teenagers. They're inexperienced, they make mistakes, and they learn from them. I'm sure you made a few when you were younger, too... I'm pretty sure we all have.

I can´t off the cuff remember the time I sheltered an unknown alien during an invasion of, y'know, unknown aliens. Nor the time when I left my home behind to be attacked by mentioned horrible aliens, to go on a suicide mission.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

I did read that. I also read the post earlier where you defended all of Alto's virtues. My point is that one of the worst things that people say about Ranka is something that several other characters in the series are equally as guilty of, yet they don't catch the flak for it that Ranka does.

Well, since I mentioned by now twice that I think of that as Altos horrible failure for the series, and my main points about him before were about he cares about his friends and is loyal to a fault, I really don´t see how you can correlate that with my criticism over what Ranka did with Ai-kun. Because there´s no logical connection.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

I'm not calling teenagers unintelligent at all. I'm calling them inexperienced. See above. And as mistakes go, this one wasn't a horrible one. She was trying to do the right thing and save lives. A overly simplistic plan, sure, but you can't fault her for trying.

Actually I can and am. I laid out my reasons about three times by now, I don´t think I need to repeat them again, do I?

I´m going to bed, so my next answer will have to wait a while.

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

How exactly does this back up your point? Please explain in detail. ^^

Simply that multiple teenagers (at least three) made exactly the same mistake. Ergo it's not a matter of holding them in low regard (which I absolutely do not), it's something which is an understandable oversight on their part.

I can´t off the cuff remember the time I sheltered an unknown alien during an invasion of, y'know, unknown aliens.

Way to reach on that one. When was the last time you lived in a world that was knowingly filled with aliens? Aliens are commonplace in this world. Surely you made some errors in judgement as a teenager? Or at least knew of peers that did.

Nor the time when I left my home behind to be attacked by mentioned horrible aliens, to go on a suicide mission.

Was she supposed to hop in a fighter and go out and fight them herself? 'Cause, you know, singing did so well the last time she tried to stop an attack... I really can't see how she can be faulted for wanting a different approach.

Well, since I mentioned by now twice that I think of that as Altos horrible failure for the series, and my main points about him before were about he cares about his friends and is loyal to a fault, I really don´t see how you can correlate that with my criticism over what Ranka did with Ai-kun. Because there´s no logical connection.

Because this seems to be one of the be all and end all arguments for how Ranka is horrible... My point is that if this makes Ranka such a horrible character, then why doesn't it make the other characters in the same situation just as bad? Why isn't the same level of hate leveled against Nanase? What did she do to counteract this 'overwhelming stupid mistake' that Ranka didn't? What more did Alto do, really? He went out and fought the Vajra, yes... And Ranka went out when it was thought her singing could control the Vajra. Alto cares for his friends... So does Ranka. Alto is loyal to a fault... so is Ranka (I certainly don't see the arguments for disloyalty). And yes, Sheryl is all those things, too.

Actually I can and am. I laid out my reasons about three times by now, I don´t think I need to repeat them again, do I?

So you're saying intent doesn't matter, just the fact that it wasn't the best plan... huh. Alright.

I´m going to bed, so my next answer will have to wait a while.

Fair enough. Nightnight.

[DeX-kun]

Wow, I've been gone for a while but I never expected this to start up again Well in either case, most of you guys know where I stand on these debates. I don't mind anyone expressing their opinion on any of these subjects but I don't like running into people that express them as facts

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Hm, we had this discussion a few months ago, and to my considerable surprise it was pointed out to me by Father Hentai that Brera deciding on his own to be Rankas pilot was the only alternative to herself having planned to off Frontier with Brera. Seeing as how he only did things for her in the latter half of the series, I can actually imagine him having this spark of initiative because of what she wanted to do.

Not that this leaves her off the hook, because if she really went to Alto assuming he´d fly off with her, it only again shows her stupendous naivitée.

Naive? Maybe, that's part of her character but aside from that point, I'm pretty sure Ranka was hoping that Alto would keep an open mind about things. Ranka was trying to reason with Alto explaining Ai-kun wasn't the one going around killing people. Nothing wrong with that really.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I can´t off the cuff remember the time I sheltered an unknown alien during an invasion of, y'know, unknown aliens. Nor the time when I left my home behind to be attacked by mentioned horrible aliens, to go on a suicide mission.

I recall Frontier containing alien life-forms such as Hydras and keeping them as pets and such (and they weren't very friendly looking.) Keeping a squirrel-like creature isn't a big deal really and besides, Ai-kun never showed any signs of malice towards Ranka (i.e. not until episode 23 I think but even then, he only captured her.)