Blood-C (CLAMP x Production IG)

[Master_Yoma]

Now that is an ending just so much blood but poor Saya being treated like that


9/10

[hyuu-fai]

It is funny how controversial this series is: I can understand someone disliking it form a personal stand point, however anyone insulting the series on a technical level is clearly to stupid to understand what they are watching.

AND PEOPLE THIS IS ART! YOU DON'T HAVE TO 'LIKE' it FOR IT TO BE GOOD! You don;t have to 'LIKE' watching a girl being unable to help anyone, you don;t have to 'LIKE" seeing a town get destroyed in an almost humorously gory way- IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL -SOMETHING- INCLUDING frustration, DISGUST or confusion IT IS GOOD ART!

and Blood-c is AMAZING ART- if you actually get your "this is dumb" out of your head and think of the people as real people on the screen you are going to feel a lot. FOR EXAMPLE: watched the last episode and imagine every character as a family member. Suddenly people getting blended is all the more disturbing- cause yes IT WAS WEIRD... but it was a writing technique of humorous macabre- it is to show how FUCKING MENTAL FUmito is... as well as to show that to these monsters HUMANS are nothing- it goes back to what Knako sensei said.

ALSO anyone go back and watch the first episode, now we get why everyone in the classroom found the "comedic actor" joke so funny especially at the teacher's comment- They gave us the answer right then- honestly re watch some episodes you will start seeing these things.

I also like how much people don't understand what they saw, you need to understand that CLAMP gives many of their characters very complex forms of dialogue, watainu and fumito I think where both useing this, making it for hard to translate. Readers of Tsubasa and HOlic would have noticed odd speach patterns similar to Fang Reed, Yuko and Fai (when he was feeling confusing).

this made fumito explanation of his attentions difficult to understand especially since it was constantly cut of by fighting- will I got a general gist in regaurds to the furikimono I don;t fully understand why he was testing Saya

Watainu granted Saya's wish to remain herself, his relationship to her inability to harm humans is still unknown (we do not know who she promised that). In my theory I think that promise has to do with her creation, she may be the creature born from the covenant, and the fact that she can not attack humans is in relation to that, she is the one who keeps the elder bairns in check an make sure they follow it.

P>S> LOVED HOW the elder bairns begging the the covenant be honoured was the opposite of what everyone speculated, that they didn;t want to eat people they where sacred of thr opposite eating to many people udner the control of fumito and breaking the contract

AN interesting note with Yuka, maybe it is just me however she does say "I am still playing at a school girl at my age" now- this is possibly a long shot, but could she very well be a vampire? Think about it this way, Fumito is only interested in his elder bairns, he killed of everyone int he village for to reason (to destroy the human furikimono contract) as well as to get rid of all the witnesses- why not get rid of Yuka and save himself the energy of having to make her a governor?


The last thing I want to point out is THEMATIC, CLMAPS works in metaphors and such, Like Tsubsa everything revolving around identity- CLAMP stated their thematic for BLOOD-C right from the start and it was about the meaning of being "NICE" however while at first they made it sound that is was about the "harms of being to nice" in fact the theme is more about "for what reason are we nice?"- with that in mind look at what you saw in BLOOD- C, and think about it critically-

[OkamiNoKaze]

Is the movie going to be a theatrical release or direct disk

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Just watched the finale. I'd say Triple_R has made the right choice by deciding not to watch it. I don't know whether to laugh or feel disgusted. There's no doubt in my mind that the series as a whole is a joke, however. We can't really say they misled us though, the series is titled Blood-C and we got copious amount of that. If we only we had gotten something else, like, I don't know, characterization and a well written plot.

No that's not the right choice. The last episode was very well executed regardless of how mad it made you or countless scores of people. Pretty much everything before the last episode is only made worth it thanks to the last episode. Anyone who watched every other episode till then is making a big mistake by not watching the last one for themselves. It's worth it either for unintentional comedy or for the epicness. hyuu-fai and others who liked it would say it's totally worth it for the emotional value and the presentation as well. It's also worth it because its the only sort of repayment you are gonna get for sticking with the show till the end. And it's worth it because it sets up the movie very nicely. I am surprised Triple_R wont watch the ending just based off rumors he heard on the net when he completely agreed that everything was being set up for the ending. He should seriously watch it when time permits.

[fertygo]

I still not regreting watching this show, its actually wasn't that bad.
And the fight choreography and sakuga by I.G is just glorious. Will buy and watching the disc if I have a chance.

[Dawnstorm]

@the philosophy of Blood-C, "What it means to be human."

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Saya owes her human qualities--the desire to protect others, the love for her father--due to Fumito's manipulations. We know these are not part of her previous self, given that her goal in the wager with Fumito is to gain the capacity to kill humans.

That's a simplification on many counts.

1. I cannot take that conclusion from a simple desire to "gain the capacity to kill humans". We learn about that in a situation where Saya was captured, humiliated, and in all likelihood tampered with. In all likelihood, hostility is mutual, and not being able to kill humans is a distinct disadvantage in such a situation.

2. As it happens, I have no doubt that Saya would probably eat humans if she could. But that is not mutually exclusive with a desire to protect others. There are lots of constellations there.

3. And what does "others" mean anyway? Only humans? Anything sentient? Cats, dogs, etc?

4. What does "Fumito's manipulations" mean? Clearly, Fumito controlled lots of factors in that experiment. I'd isolate two factors: (a) brainwashing (which includes false memories, drugging, and the entire environment), and (b) Tadayoshi's affection, the difference is, I think, that the former was tightly controlled, whereas the latter was made use of (and originally borne of something like loneliness). So which of the two factors was decisive? Both? None? Was something added through behaviourist methods? Was something wakened what's always been there?

So I don't think the episode leaves us where we began at the start of the experiment, as you think. The anime makes the strong case that we become what we pretend to be. As class president puts it, "It was all an act. But as I acted, I think I started to really like you."

Yes, and lots of others acted, too, and didn't buy into it. The scene continues something like this:

"But that wasn't me."
"It was part of you."

How to interpret that? Chicken/Egg?

Fumito's purpose in playing this game is to make the Nietzschean argument that moral impulses are nothing more than a deceit the strong impose upon the weak. He wants to make Saya herself the evidence that morality is just another sign of superior force.

Well, I think we need to separate the experiment from the bet. I think, Fumito's undermining the experiment with the bet, but I'm not sure to what end, or whether it's deliberate at all.

I'm sort wonder whether he ever actually meant to win the bet, or whether he wanted a Saya who can kill humans, but went through all that (for some reason).

Fumito's argument is the stronger precisely because Saya's own experience of humanity hardly rises above the level of cliche. If the moral values she believes in are cliches, then her human nature is just a mishmash of Fumito's hackwork, styled as it manifestly is upon that bastion of anime cliche, the Japanese high school. To give the characters strong individuation, as you want, would be to provide an independent and intrinsic justification for Saya's moral impulses, which is at cross-purposes with the show's purposes.

The only thing that would change would be that we get to see the backstage area of the experiment. Saya really needn't know what the viewer does. This isn't philosophy; it's a magician's trick. You don't have to change the characters at all, just actually, you know, show them.

The "twist" is matter of presentation, not content. How does the surprise help me understand the philosophy?

But I think Saya's newly-acquired moral impulses are real, even though they are part and parcel with Fumito's manipulations, even though they are a tissue of cliches, even if they are the end result of so much acting and pretending. The sentiments she feels at her "father" and class president's deaths are real, and are dramatized positively, without irony.

I agree.

More, the anger she feels toward Fumito expresses a demand for justice, to bring him to his just desserts. The anime has moved to a point of moral clarity, where we understand in full the scope of Fumito's depravity, and the moral necessity which now propels Saya.

I agree, somewhat. I'm not sure we're through with understanding Fumito, and I'm definitely doubtful about "moral necessity" and "clarity".

Does this access to clarity amount to a strong characterization of Saya or of Fumito? No. When we consider to the story of Achilles and the tortoise, questions of characterization are entirely beside the point. What matters is the roles they play in the philosophical argument. Likewise here.

Well, since Achilles and tortoise is purely about logic, you need no characterisation at all. You could have a rock that simply rolls down a hill, and a rocket-propelled rock, and get the same conclusion. Tempting as it is, substituting inanimate objects for the characters in the show is not viable. What you have, in terms of philosophy, is a thought experiment. Your analysis of the implications is certainly interesting, but it's not the only one possible. (And you haven't said it is.)

But even if I look at it as a thought experiment: a thought experiment of this complexity should take a couple of paragraphs' worth of summary; around 3 - 4 ,not 12, anime episodes. (8 episodes of Achilles taunting the tortoise, 2 episodes race preparations, 2 episodes of Achilles failing to catch up to the tortois. No finishing line in sight. Open ending.)

Your post did open up interesting perspectives, but I'm still not buying it. Curious: what do you make of the dog? What's the price paid for the wish?

[Cloudy]

Somehow Blood-C would have been better if it is a 2 part movie. Because the closing episode makes me feel that the plot in the series could have been resloved in a feature film.

Also, the human-munching bunnies in ep 12 looks like Kyubey's lost relatives.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I did catch that, but it seems most of her face regenerated by the time she put the wrapping over the eye. Though oddly enough, this means even though the entire side of her head healed itself in a matter of days, her eye didn't.

The wound was still bleeding, so it's likely the regeneration process isn't complete yet. If she can regenerate half of her face, I don't see any reason why she can't regenerate her eye.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

No that's not the right choice. The last episode was very well executed regardless of how mad it made you or countless scores of people. Pretty much everything before the last episode is only made worth it thanks to the last episode. Anyone who watched every other episode till then is making a big mistake by not watching the last one for themselves. It's worth it either for unintentional comedy or for the epicness. hyuu-fai and others who liked it would say it's totally worth it for the emotional value and the presentation as well. It's also worth it because its the only sort of repayment you are gonna get for sticking with the show till the end. And it's worth it because it sets up the movie very nicely. I am surprised Triple_R wont watch the ending just based off rumors he heard on the net when he completely agreed that everything was being set up for the ending. He should seriously watch it when time permits.

The only value this episode has is the good animation and the excellent choreography of the fights, which is enough to make it worth watching, yeah. That is, if you can stomach pointlessly gruesome massacres. You and I may find it entertaining, but that's not the case for everybody. It might be the exact opposite of a repayment for those people. They really went all out with the gore in this episode, and since Triple_R stated he doesn't care about that, I'm afraid he won't find much value here.

I'd say the only scenes one shouldn't miss are the ones featuring Tadayoshi, since they were the most interesting, both action-wise and story-wise.

[konart]

Originally Posted by liro

Saya protection charm:

I wouldn't dare to wear it

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze

Is the movie going to be a theatrical release or direct disk

Theatrical. Some have said it would be released in June 2012, but lazy to check now.

Originally Posted by hyuu-fai

It is funny how controversial this series is: I can understand someone disliking it form a personal stand point, however anyone insulting the series on a technical level is clearly to stupid to understand what they are watching.

This serie isn't all that controversial : vast majority of people didn't like it, or rather were disappointed by it and stopped discussing it by now. You have people who like it however and stay correct and you have a few exceptions, 99% of whom are Clamp fans, who insult the rest of universe for being too stupid to understand Clamp greatness.
And since brainless fanboys don't deserve much attention, I didn't read your post further.

[KRegnard]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Theatrical. Some have said it would be released in June 2012, but lazy to check now.



This serie isn't all that controversial : vast majority of people didn't like it, or rather were disappointed by it and stopped discussing it by now and you have a few exceptions, 99% of whom are Clamp fans, who insult the rest of universe for being too stupid to understand Clamp greatness.
And since brainless fanboys don't deserve much attention, I didn't read your post further.

Your argument made a lot of sense, as much as that of the person you quoted.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by KRegnard

Your argument made a lot of sense, as much as that of the person you quoted.

I like you. I really do. That was awesome and Nina.Wolken is probably among the more decent posters too.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by KRegnard

Your argument made a lot of sense, as much as that of the person you quoted.

Of course everyone who enjoyed the serie don't go around telling people they're "too stupid to understand", I'm sorry my sentence ended off having a complete different meaning than what I wanted to express.
I was clearly targeting (in my mind at least =.=') fanboys/girls who throw the "this is Clamp so ofc this good111" argument again and again and start being rude to others to defend their opinions.

I love Clamp myself, own most of their manga and love Blood C character design. However, even if the original idea behind Blood C was good, I think they've a part of responsibility in what went wrong in this anime. Now there are people who liked it, fine. Others want to call it art, no problem. But there are ways to say things...

[klare]

a nice ending, only 2 main casts survived, so Saya gets even stronger than red eyes mode when she is in glowing mode

now who is that dog? will she be able to get back at "Fumito"? we will see in the movie, just hope her eye will heal by then

the bunnies totally treat humans as food, which is interesting, and i really like the actions throughout the series

[kvi]

Was it ever mentioned why the "Aged Ones" agreed to the contract in the first place? The way they plow through people, it's kind of hard to believe that they would agree to it unless the humans had some means of insuring that they honored it. Unless Saya was supposed to be the enforcer of the contract or something.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by kvi

Was it ever mentioned why the "Aged Ones" agreed to the contract in the first place? The way they plow through people, it's kind of hard to believe that they would agree to it unless the humans had some means of insuring that they honored it. Unless Saya was supposed to be the enforcer of the contract or something.

Maybe they just thought it was convenient to not have to fight and not have to chase after people.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Saya owes her human qualities--the desire to protect others, the love for her father--due to Fumito's manipulations. We know these are not part of her previous self, given that her goal in the wager with Fumito is to gain the capacity to kill humans.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

That's a simplification on many counts.

No doubt.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

1. I cannot take that conclusion from a simple desire to "gain the capacity to kill humans". We learn about that in a situation where Saya was captured, humiliated, and in all likelihood tampered with. In all likelihood, hostility is mutual, and not being able to kill humans is a distinct disadvantage in such a situation.

As you say, not being able to kill humans is a disadvantage. But Saya's purpose is not simply tactical, aimed at gaining greater flexibilty in fighting. Instead, she seeks freedom from the prior compulsion upon her. She is trying to return to herself, to who and what she is without outside interference. And the mark of that freedom, of her true self, is to be able to kill humans.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

2. As it happens, I have no doubt that Saya would probably eat humans if she could. But that is not mutually exclusive with a desire to protect others. There are lots of constellations there.

Actually, in Saya's particular case the desire to protect others and the desire to kill humans are mutually exclusive, by terms of the contract Saya agreed to, that made her incapable of killing humans in the first place.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

3. And what does "others" mean anyway? Only humans? Anything sentient? Cats, dogs, etc?

I have in mind the generality Saya means when she says, as she does many times, that she wants to "protect everyone."

But I think this is a good question. There is strong reason to think that moral responsibilty obtains among humans and furukimonos. That both can interbreeed, can bind each other to a covenant, suggests they are not fundamentally different. Not even in cruelty: Fumito is as callous as any furukimono...

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

4. What does "Fumito's manipulations" mean? Clearly, Fumito controlled lots of factors in that experiment. I'd isolate two factors: (a) brainwashing (which includes false memories, drugging, and the entire environment), and (b) Tadayoshi's affection, the difference is, I think, that the former was tightly controlled, whereas the latter was made use of (and originally borne of something like loneliness). So which of the two factors was decisive? Both? None? Was something added through behaviourist methods? Was something wakened what's always been there?

All of the above.

We know that Fumito is playing a philosophical game with Saya, to find out if--by changing "your birthplace, your surroundings, even your memories"--if it is possible to change her "at your deepest level." What matters here is not the specifics of Fumito's methods--brainwashing vs Tadayoshi's affections, external factors or internal conditions--but the fact that he compels her.

Blood-C is the story of a cold-blooded rape. What makes this story outrageous is that the rape imposes upon Saya the condition of ordinary humanity. He forces upon her the life and with it the perspective and feelings of a high school girl, complete with the moral qualities of compassion and grief.

Tell me, how are we to take that? I believe Solace used the term "mind-screw." It consumately fits.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

So I don't think the episode leaves us where we began at the start of the experiment, as you think. The anime makes the strong case that we become what we pretend to be. As class president puts it, "It was all an act. But as I acted, I think I started to really like you."

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Yes, and lots of others acted, too, and didn't buy into it. The scene continues something like this:

"But that wasn't me."
"It was part of you."

How to interpret that? Chicken/Egg?

Itsuki's death serves to articulate the principle, so that we recognize it not only in his case but in Saya's. There is no notion that everyone ought to be affected identically for the principle to hold.

What Itsuki means by "[i]t was a part of you" I would prefer to defer to a native-speaker.

As you suggest, Itsuki may imply that Saya's human qualities reflect some intrinsic part of her, rather than something she learned via Fumito's game. And perhaps the effort to pin the source of those qualities down is as wrong-headed as deciding what came first, the chicken or the egg.

Let me take an indirect approach to these points. Do you recall the scene late in the episode, where the badly-wounded Saya is lying by the riverbank, remembering and seeing in her mind's eye Nono and Nene, Yuka, Itsuki, Takayoshi, and father, whereupon a tear comes to her eye? At this point Saya knows consciously that several of these people in fact were never her friends. Yet she still sheds a tear for all of them, the truth notwithstanding: what matters, and what is real for Saya, is the pretense, even the pretense that she knows to be a pretense.

So to look beyond the appearance to a truth or a deep inner capacity misses the point. The appearance of friendship is, at this moment, for Saya the whole reality of friendship, enough to move her to visible tears.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Well, I think we need to separate the experiment from the bet. I think, Fumito's undermining the experiment with the bet, but I'm not sure to what end, or whether it's deliberate at all.

I'm sort wonder whether he ever actually meant to win the bet, or whether he wanted a Saya who can kill humans, but went through all that (for some reason).

The experiment and the bet together make clear that Fumito's project is a game, to prove a point, a philosophical argument practically realized. They are not at cross-purposes.

Why was all that necessary? What would justify the extreme lengths and expense Fumito has gone to in constructing a whole phony town complete with it seems hundreds of phony inhabitants? Other posters on this thread have suggested various practical reasons. Any of these might concievably be correct. I only point out that Fumito himself does not explciitly advert to any practical purpose beyond the philosphical game.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The "twist" is matter of presentation, not content. How does the surprise help me understand the philosophy?

The surprise forces us to understand the ordinary life of high school and parents in a radically different light, as a fabrication and a instrument of control imposed upon a person. In this Blood-C resembles the novels and stories of Philip K. Dick, which consistently reveal ordinary reality and individual selves to be constructs of hidden forces and purposes. Blood-C seeks to bring its viewers to a new perception of reality. The characters themselves are merely means to that perception. The surprise is precisely the moment that new perception is realized. So the philosophy is impossible without the surprise.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I agree, somewhat. I'm not sure we're through with understanding Fumito, and I'm definitely doubtful about "moral necessity" and "clarity".

Yes. This whole anime starts in the middle: there is back story we don't know, perhaps tying Blood-C to other Clamp projects, and there is unfinished business with Fumito. I like that he retains his debonair and suave quality, that unspeakable smile, even after he turns out to be a complete rotter. Actually, now that I think about it, all the false friends retain their personalities across the revelation. Nono and Nene are definitely the same. Only Kanako is visible different, what with her new bitterness toward her academic rivals and all.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Well, since Achilles and tortoise is purely about logic, you need no characterisation at all. You could have a rock that simply rolls down a hill, and a rocket-propelled rock, and get the same conclusion. Tempting as it is, substituting inanimate objects for the characters in the show is not viable. What you have, in terms of philosophy, is a thought experiment. Your analysis of the implications is certainly interesting, but it's not the only one possible. (And you haven't said it is.)

But even if I look at it as a thought experiment: a thought experiment of this complexity should take a couple of paragraphs' worth of summary; around 3 - 4 ,not 12, anime episodes. (8 episodes of Achilles taunting the tortoise, 2 episodes race preparations, 2 episodes of Achilles failing to catch up to the tortois. No finishing line in sight. Open ending.)

I think you are completely right. Your arguement works as well for philophical dramas as it does for anything else.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Curious: what do you make of the dog? What's the price paid for the wish?

I would guess the dog is Watanuki. He tells us that he has granted Saya's wish to remain herself. Fumito also says earlier in the episode that Saya is her old self again, but perhaps they don't mean the same thing. It's not clear how the dog grants her wish in any case. But the cost of the wish has to be the ancillary consequences of escaping Fumito's illusionary world: the exposure and the loss and the deaths of her friends.

I very much appreciate your thoughtful consideration of my earlier post. And it's fun to do another wall-of-words like in the old Madoka threads! So, thank you.

[Triple_R]

I ultimately decided to watch the final episode, and just skip over the death scene of the twins. Kudos to Forsaken Infinity for his persuasive words there, as some of this was better than I had thought it would be. Fumito, in particular, came off very well.

That final boss fight was indeed exceptional, and was one of the best one-on-one fights I've ever seen in anime.

Fumito ended up making a great magnificent bastard antagonist (loved the action blockbuster thriller-esque gunshot straight to Saya's eye, lol), and it was interesting to see old Saya reassert herself, but still with Blood-C Saya coming through in some scenes (especially over "her father's" death).

Fumito succeeded to a degree. Saya did change, permanently, to a degree.

What I think of this anime overall, I don't know. It's gutsy in how unconventional it is, that's for sure.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

D:, you skipped over the good part

[amasposu]

Clamp trolled their fans hard. I am one of the people who enjoyed the first half of the series but not the second half.