[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Just to add.
All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!
A concept cannot have fatal wounds or anything that looks like one. And you cannot murder a concept. You can also not be a murderer of concepts.

Edit: Also there is somewhat of a bigger problem. Even if we're to accept that Shkanon can somehow evade death by furniture death this is not what the ones in favor of it are suggesting. What is being proposed, in the form it is being proposed, can be resumed to this.
Shannon and Kanon are implied not to be their only names, as thus it makes them deathproof, redproof, and senseproof.

This red actually suggests they ARE faking. "They had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds!"

If they actually had gunshot wounds, they would have come out and said it! This red practically says they didn't have real gunshot wounds, just signs that resembled them.

You say there's no way to tell which "dead" someone is. Sure, in that single sentence there isn't, but you're ignoring the whole rest of the game that has multiple hints and clues towards it.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by serverwolf

? that dosnt counter what i said.
i said that the red truth is a rule that will help you to find the answer.
your riddel is like this. "today i made juice, now what is the juie i made? -it have to be round and red-"
the rule in wich the juice ingridients is that it have to be round and red, so you need to find out with thous rules what you made.

Actually it does, completely. I can use an in-game example if you want.

There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima

Based on that, back on the day, several people would have thought that meat there were indeed 18 people. However, that's not what the Red is telling us. We're simply being told there are no more than 18, but we were never told the number couldn't be lower.

You can also take into account all the Reds for Kanon's death in EP1. The scene itself leads you to believe he's dead, and the Red corners you into believing he couldn't have been killed. However, by working it out, you can easily deduce he was never killed.

And there's a lot more.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Who is Erika?
Assuming Erika is someone else among the rest, I tried to figure out who she could be within arc 6. She is the culprit, which helps a lot.

Krauss, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, and Gohda - Not the culprit in red
Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, and Maria - Dead in red
Battler and Kanon (or Shkanon) - Body count in the guestroom prevents it

Now unless you suggest that Erika sealed the next room over while being inside and then broke it's herself (without even being aware of it somehow) she can hardly be someone in the next room over at the time it became a sealed room. Additionally ruling out George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.

Who's left?
Jessica and Genji.

I feel like Erika has to be a combination of people. This is what the cups game suggests to us as the way to solve the final riddle.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I feel like Erika has to be a combination of people. This is what the cups game suggests to us as the way to solve the final riddle.

I'm pretty sure that only makes sense if your thinking about the coins as people. If you think about the cups as people and the coins as their souls it looks a little different because you have to put more than one coin inside the same cup to solve that one.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I'm pretty sure that only makes sense if your thinking about the coins as people. If you think about the cups as people and the coins as their souls it looks a little different because you have to put more than one coin inside the same cup to solve that one.

You have to put more than one coin inside the same cup anyways to solve it, before you even start taking away coins. If we go with cups=people and coins=souls, then you have to put 2 people together with 3 souls to make 4 total fake souls to solve the riddle?

I think it makes much more sense if the actual number of coins is the actual number of real people, and the goal is to make it look like there are more coins than there actually are. You're supposed to place 5 coins so they look like 1+2+3. If you have to come up with what the cups represent, you could argue that the cups are supposed to be the various factions that exist, and coins within the same cup are "allied" together. I think it is already enough of a hint without that, though.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Because arc 6 tells us the following things that you seem to have completely missed.

It clearly gave us an answer for the closed rooms, this answer was then validated by Erika. That is, they faked their death.

If you had read it enough to notice that you probably wouldn't try to answer questions that does not exist.

sorry i didnt understand what you are talking about (if you are talking with me)

Also, I do not mean to be rude, but your typing is beyond awful. It is well beyond the typos of fast typing errors or even grammatical error. What you write mostly hurts to read. That simply won't help you in expressing yourself if you're barely understood by the other side and discourage many from attempting to read at all.

you mean me right? i know -_-" i really try my beast to write correct but my fast writing+not perfect english + annoying key board... give the ultimate typo.
do forgive me

@Used Can yet again its dosnt counter what i said. after all the red rule of there are no more then 18 people on rokenjima is a rule to make us understand that there couldn't be more so that we can stop climb on that tree. and of course, ryukishi won't just say "there are actully 17 people on rokenjima, and by the way i 'lied' about kinzo hehehehe you fail for it" so fast in the game. what the point in a game where you have too much of hints and you can win it without even trying?
its a game between you and ryukishi, ryukishi will help you a litile bit so that you wont be too wrong about it, but he isn't going to tell you the answer so fast.

BTW i didn't thought about that posibility (kanon) i will read again the 1st EP (thenks for the intristing tip )

[Disz]

Hey,I just thought of something interesting.

About the way George and Jessica fight.

George uses precise moves in order to scare opponents and show them they certainly cannot win.
Also had a power Gaap was impressed with,claiming he nearly had powers of a demon.(Clarify this)

Jessica uses spammy moves until one of them hits,and when they do she keeps going and going showing complete determination that some miracle can occur.
Ronove explained this is a power of humans that should be terrified.(Clarify this)

It reminds me of red truth and blue truth.

Right?George fights like he has the red,and Jessica with the blue.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Disz

Hey,I just thought of something interesting.

About the way George and Jessica fight.

George uses precise moves in order to scare opponents and show them they certainly cannot win.
Also had a power Gaap was impressed with,claiming he nearly had powers of a demon.(Clarify this)

The first thing reading this made me thought of was baking cookies like Ronove. Admitedly the definition of demon is one we should think about. George is uh "nearly a demon", Gaap, Ronove, Zepar and Furfur are demons. Gaap and Ronove tend to be suggested to be actual people or be the concept of these people seen by Beatrice, but I don't see much of a link between a broken buttlerfly brooch, Genji, and who or whatever is Gaap. I'm really confused as to what ties these people/thing/furniture/whatever together.

Jessica uses spammy moves until one of them hits,and when they do she keeps going and going showing complete determination that some miracle can occur.
Ronove explained this is a power of humans that should be terrified.(Clarify this)

It reminds me of red truth and blue truth.

Right?George fights like he has the red,and Jessica with the blue.

It also seems to suggest Bern and LD a bit no? Intereting find in any case!
In arc 4 and 6 Ronove was shown to seemingly respect Jessica and even calls her Milady. For some reason I never got much, I think it was in arc 3's intro, we're shown LD associated with Eva Beatrice. No problem there. The next frame is Ronove with Bernkastel. I'm probably just seeing too much.

[confusionjunkie]

This is a little off topic.

Uh, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I'm still wondering who Gaap is equivalent to in the real world. I have 2 ideas.

If Beato=Shannon, then Gaap=Jessica or Kanon
If Beato=Jessica, Gaap=Shannon

Maybe if we find everyone's meta-counterparts then the mystery will be easier? I'm just guessing here, feel free to shoot me down.

[Judoh]

I don't think the representations make all that much of a difference. The only ones I think are important are Ronove and Virgilia since they're the ones who give Battler the most hints. The rest don't have to represent anybody because they make sense with or without it.

There have been speculations that Rosa = Gaap and this is based off different hints than Gaap's friendship status with Beatrice. (which may not even matter) That theory has more to do with what's said about Gaap's fashion sense and her taste in men. And the line "but only if he's hot!"

However while some people still beleive these things need representations the thoughts on them so far have gone absolutely no where in terms of seeing any of the characters in a different way. It's an old theory that started with the stakes in episode 1 and 2 and IMO it's just a dead end. It also can get incredibly silly with certain characters.

[Erisette]

I think an important mystery in Umineko is the meaning of furniture. I’ve seen many people saying that furniture are alternate identities, personalities or small people inside of a character, like some sort of bizarre DID. However, I thought that maybe they can be something less magical, like a róle, a pose, a role-playing character, a sockpuppet, a lie gone too far, a fake identity, or an actor in a play.

Based on this last idea, I had a thought:

Spoiler for Acting:

Couldn't it be that instead of brainwashing his servants, Kinzo just gave them specific roles or “characters” to play? Basically the “Fukuin Acting School” idea but with actual acting instead of religious brainwashing. The names of the servants can be explained as the characters they have to play. For example: Yoshiya, a determined boy who likes intellectual people, has to play the character of Kanon, a shy servant who never speaks. His sister has it worse; she has to play several characters: Shannon, a clumsy servant created by Kinzo, Beatrice, a BDSM and chess fan created by Battler, and Sayo, the same as Shannon but with love for George. If you believe in Shkanon, you may add the Kanon character to her big list of characters.

Spoiler for Crackpot:

The other furniture can be explained similarly if we broaden acting to include hiding one’s true identity and some sort of role-playing.

Genji was a sarcastic, wise and flamboyant servant with a moustache, but Kinzo saved his life and asked him to hide his identity, swear loyalty and become emotionless.

When she was left alone in her house, Maria would sometimes play the role of Sakutaro, speaking to herself while holding the plush. She believed that the plush was speaking to her, but she was speaking through the plush. When the plush was lost, she could not longer play the role of Sakutaro without some disbelief. But Ange found a Sakutaro in the future, so she now can talk through him and make herself and MARIA believe that she is Sakutaro. The same with the stakes: Because she has a toy that she believes that can speak, she can take that role when talking to herself. I read in a book that people in solitary confinement may talk to inanimate objects in order to not become insane. Because Maria and Ange had no friends and nobody to talk to, they acted like they were other beings and talked to themselves.

Spoiler for Theatrice:

Also, it is worth mentioning the presence of the acting theme in Chiru: The fake deaths, Erika's boyfriend, Genius Battler, Erika getting the tape, the Witch of Theatergoing, and the cover and screens of EP7.

Feel free to point all the holes here

[Judoh]

There aren't any hints that the Fukuin house has anything to do with anything Theater related or that it's anything besides an orphanage... But I think you'd have an argument if you said Kinzo taught them to do that stuff to pull his pranks.

[Erisette]

Originally Posted by Judoh

There aren't any hints that the Fukuin house has anything to do with anything Theater related or that it's anything besides an orphanage...

Yeah, I know. I was trying to say it was similar, with Kinzo making the servants do weird stuff and all. And cmos' theory reminded me that it was said that the servants were used for black magic and that they were the only ones he spoke with.

Originally Posted by Judoh

But I think you'd have an argument if you said Kinzo taught them to do that stuff to pull his pranks.

Good Idea!

[Kitsu]

You could add the Trap Twins to your argument. They really feel like well actors on stage. I think there was even something said inside the game about it.

Seems like a fun idea to say at least.

[Renall]

There's also the notion of Kinzo's interest being a stage magic sort of thing. Acting of a different sort (Goldsmith the Magnificent, who summons scantily-clad bunnygirls and performs pitfall tricks), the possibility of the "dungeon" at Kuwadorian (if it exists) being a prop storage area, etc.

If this theory is even remotely close to explaining the "stage" background in ep7, it should be quite the shakeup.

Oliver once suggested none of the characters we've seen are the actual Ushiromiyas, but actors who have been playing out "Rokkenjima stories" in an actual theater.

[UsagiTenpura]

Wait, does that means that the Ushiromiya doesn't even have to necessarily exists within Umineko's fiction? I guess it's been hinted that Rokkenjima appears on no maps even within it's own fiction.

That certainly would explain the absurd clothes of various characters.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Oliver once suggested none of the characters we've seen are the actual Ushiromiyas, but actors who have been playing out "Rokkenjima stories" in an actual theater.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he said that because he thought the blonde could be an actor for Jessica with the stage background. However the backcover sort of suggests she/he's one of the 1986 characters.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's also the notion of Kinzo's interest being a stage magic sort of thing. Acting of a different sort (Goldsmith the Magnificent, who summons scantily-clad bunnygirls and performs pitfall tricks), the possibility of the "dungeon" at Kuwadorian (if it exists) being a prop storage area, etc.

If this theory is even remotely close to explaining the "stage" background in ep7, it should be quite the shakeup.

Oliver once suggested none of the characters we've seen are the actual Ushiromiyas, but actors who have been playing out "Rokkenjima stories" in an actual theater.

I don't mean to come across as rude, but this talk about "acting" and "theater" being in Umineko doesn't quite make sense to me. I realize that there are a lot of references to the theater in Umineko, but I would rather this mystery remain a mystery without the hidden reality.

Now I must say I did day the same thing to Author Theory (which was all but confirmed in EP6) and it disappointed me a bit, but I think any interpretations using the theater are completely unnecessary and obfuscate the purpose of the game: a murder mystery to be solved.

I would rather not have to question the rules of the game. It would make the entire game arbitrary and not worth reading. This is a murder mystery, dammit, it's not supposed to be this complicated to find out how to begin to solve it, or even if the events I'm trying to be solving even happened.
I enjoy the surrealism in the series as it is, too much more will be too confusing.

Now I cannot say I know why Nanjo was in a theater in that screenshot, unless he was preparing Jessica's school's festival in EP2

I'm sorry if I sound rude; that is not my intention. It certainly is fun to think up interpretations like this, but if it were true we would have a play based on fallacious message bottles based off of a series of events that may not have even occured.

[Judoh]

Well by calling herself the witch of Theatergoing I think Featherine is making it very clear that she believes she's a spectator watching from a distance. Like watching a performance at the opera with binoculars.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well by calling herself the witch of Theatergoing I think Featherine is making it very clear that she believes she's a spectator watching from a distance. Like watching a performance at the opera with Binoculars.

Well yes, I do think that Featherine is just like Bern and Lambda: they came because they were bored to observe the events on Beato's gameboard.

But I do not think the events that we are shown on Rokkenjima are fake just because of this.