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Old 2021-11-28, 06:08   Link #7561
Giuseppe1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B214 View Post
First off, where's your proof that Loki is a middle-class God? Also Norse is known to be more advance in magic than the Christianity. What's so weird if Loki who's a Norse God is able to use Norse magic proficiently to create an equation to negate Azazel and Barakiel's attack? Magic isn't all about power, there's equation involved in it as well.

Second, "Issei CxC was completely destroyed by Thanatos, a God-Class being." Your point? Ise also got trashed by Diehauser in CxC, are you going to say it was before unlocking DxD? You can say that but it doesn't change that Ise CxC still lost to Diehauser.

Third, "Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class."
Again, where in the story has it been mentioned that God-class is superior than Maou-class. This is going back to the Great Red > Ophis thing. Ishibumi never confirmed that, its just us fans thinking so. Also Devils aren't Gods, it doesn't make sense for them to be called God-class when they're beings that are direct opposite of them. As for Super Devils are, they are Devils that transcended logic, Sirzechs & Ajuka literally have hack like abilities that easily surpasses even Gods. Even Rizevim has the SG Canceller that would make a Longinus useless before him when a Longinus is created to kill Gods. The Rizevim portion is before Ise unlocking Penetrate.
He's not described to be a Chief God level and neither a Battle/War God like Heavenly Kings. Seeing he's not a God of commerce or farming and itÂ’s even able to fight would be on middle level.
Loki has the mental compression of the magic to create such things, but at the end his magic has the power to stop easily the attacks of two maou-class beings together. The equation is necessary for every step of the magic.

The more advanced magic system didn't allow Ross to easily handle opponents of her same level or above.

Second. Maybe there is a little difference between CxC vol24 and vol20? The fact he unlocked DxD form that increased the strength of CxC to maou-class. I believe Issei was trashed by Belial in Agreas. His CxC was Ultimate-class while Belial is maou-class.

Quote:
Third, "Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class."
Again, where in the story has it been mentioned that God-class is superior than Maou-class. This is going back to the Great Red > Ophis thing. Ishibumi never confirmed that, its just us fans thinking so. Also Devils aren't Gods, it doesn't make sense for them to be called God-class when they're beings that are direct opposite of them. As for Super Devils are, they are Devils that transcended logic, Sirzechs & Ajuka literally have hack like abilities that easily surpasses even Gods. Even Rizevim has the SG Canceller that would make a Longinus useless before him when a Longinus is created to kill Gods. The Rizevim portion is before Ise unlocking Penetrate.
I literally showed you but still are you ignoring every fact. Loki who could handle together two maou-class.

Issei who had to use P DxD, a God level form to fight Thanatos, a God-Class being because He said CxC, maou-class was useless against them.

Tell me for which Reason Issei said he has to use DxD to fight Sairaorg btb? Because his power overpassed the maou-class. It's Higher that reached the God-Class. Why did Issei say he has to use DxD to fight God-Class beings? Saying DxD is so strong that can face God-Class beings. Not CxC, strange.

It doesn't matter Super Devils here. Ishibumi created a new term, Over the maou-class. If the maou-class was so strong on par with Gods, He would have never created a new term

Super Devils is a term for those Devils who have overpassed and by much the the limit of devils that's the maou-class. Like Hades said Sirzechs had outclassed so much the Maou that couldn't be called more a Devil.

Ishibumi neither confirmed Issei is stronger than Miltan, so he can beat Issei?

Vali ejod was called a Super Devil because his power overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class. He instantly killed a maou-class being as Pluton showing God-Class is superior to Maou-class.

The same Vali said Ejod has the power to rival Gods.
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Old 2021-11-28, 08:23   Link #7562
Xuanwu
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Kiba also confirmed that CxC does not have enough power to oppose a God-class being in Shin DxD 4. Technically, it does have the firepower with Crimson Blaster or Longinus Smasher but Issei can't spam those techniques.

Quote:
The image of the copper-haired young male Devil Balberith, as well as the long and jade-haired Devil girl Verrine that we previously met before popped into everyone’s head in response to those words. They were a part of a team that was led by a Grim Reaper from the Netherworld. And their power was said to be Transcendental-class, which was equal to a God’s.
Low-class < Mid-class < High-class < Ultimate-class < Maou-class < Transcendental-class = God-class.
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Old 2021-11-28, 11:53   Link #7563
Giuseppe1234
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Originally Posted by Xuanwu View Post
Kiba also confirmed that CxC does not have enough power to oppose a God-class being in Shin DxD 4. Technically, it does have the firepower with Crimson Blaster or Longinus Smasher but Issei can't spam those techniques.


Low-class < Mid-class < High-class < Ultimate-class < Maou-class < Transcendental-class = God-class.
I didn't remember this quote of Kiba, thank you.
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Old 2021-11-28, 16:26   Link #7564
Xuanwu
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^That quote was from Issei, actually. This is what Kiba said about CxC against God-class beings:

Quote:
Recently​, we, the Gremory peerage and Hyoudou Issei peerage, as well as Team [D×D]’s battles with God-class opponents have increased.

If it was a God-class opponent, Ise-kun in his Crimson Armour couldn’t match them. Even with all the team's fighting power​, Dragon Deification was still a vital point.
Pretty sure Maou-class devils can only take on the low-class Gods (non-battle types).
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Old 2021-11-30, 16:14   Link #7565
bashkim1234
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Well the classes does not make sense to me. I mean the author never gave as an explanation what are the criteria to ultimate or satan class devil ? I mean that is the bare minimum or the maximus to be an ultimate or satan class devil. Even a low god class surpass a satan class opponent.
When Ise was fighting Thanto´s he did not use Boost to increase his power, but went straight pseudo DXD mode.
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Old 2021-12-01, 11:17   Link #7566
Xuanwu
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Originally Posted by bashkim1234 View Post
Well the classes does not make sense to me. I mean the author never gave as an explanation what are the criteria to ultimate or satan class devil ? I mean that is the bare minimum or the maximus to be an ultimate or satan class devil. Even a low god class surpass a satan class opponent.
When Ise was fighting Thanto´s he did not use Boost to increase his power, but went straight pseudo DXD mode.
Ultimate-class are the devils with a certain level of power and contribution to the Underworld. Also seems to apply to the particularly strong descendants of the original Maou; I mean Vali and Ingvild were promoted to Ultimate-class faster than Rias and Sairaorg were.
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Old 2021-12-01, 15:59   Link #7567
bashkim1234
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Originally Posted by Xuanwu View Post
Ultimate-class are the devils with a certain level of power and contribution to the Underworld. Also seems to apply to the particularly strong descendants of the original Maou; I mean Vali and Ingvild were promoted to Ultimate-class faster than Rias and Sairaorg were.
This could be the case, but it does not explain the criteria what makes an ultimate class devil or how strong you need to be to reached the level of ultimate class devil or satan class. As I said, even a low god has power, that surpass a satan class devil.
As I said, this class does not make sense, because what is above satan class which is not a superdevil (God level) but is still stronger than a satan class, but weaker than a low god class.
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Old 2021-12-02, 12:53   Link #7568
Xuanwu
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Originally Posted by bashkim1234 View Post
This could be the case, but it does not explain the criteria what makes an ultimate class devil or how strong you need to be to reached the level of ultimate class devil or satan class. As I said, even a low god has power, that surpass a satan class devil.
The criteria for Ultimate-class is this:

Quote:
Irina then asked a question.

"By the way, what can you do in Underworld society by becoming an Ultimate-class Devil? I think being above a High-class Devil means that you have more authority than the current Ise-kun."

Oh, that. As a precaution, I learned something from Rias and Ravel before.

Ravel said.

"Basically, those who can become Ultimate-class Devils are those who have high degrees of contributions, recognition and popularity in the Underworld. Therefore, their comments and actions have strong influence. It is also possible to move the upper-class Devils, the ancient 72 Pillars that are pure blooded Devil families."

If an Ultimate-class Devil says to a pure noble Devil "Oh, I want you to do that" or "I want you to do this", then the noble Devil cannot ignore it. ...If you are an upstart High-class Devil not from the upper echelons of society, then even if you're of the same class, your influence and authority are inferior to those of pure blooded noble Devils no matter what. Due to this aspect, the authority of an Ultimate-class Devil is enormous.
From the comments of Issei in Volume 12 and Shin DxD 1, it's apparent that Ultimate-class devils are far more powerful than the usual High-class devils. Also from the fact that they were the ones mobilized to stop the Bandersnatch & Jabberwocky invasion.

So the criteria should be:

*Strength surpassing High-class devils
*Certain level of contribution in the Underworld
*Being a direct descendant of the original Maou (which would also mean far more demonic power than High-class devils)

Quote:
As I said, this class does not make sense, because what is above satan class which is not a superdevil (God level) but is still stronger than a satan class, but weaker than a low god class.
I don't understand this, can you rephrase it?
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Old 2021-12-02, 22:07   Link #7569
kiiro94
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Originally Posted by B214 View Post
G

We don't know that for sure, Ishibumi never clarify if Serafall and Falbium is weaker or stronger than the originals. For starters, I've mentioned before once there's a "class", there will be a range. Just because a person is a God doesn't mean they're powerful. Even with the Five Dragon Kings, they aren't equal in strength, otherwise Tiamat wouldn't be call strongest of the five.
For me, I just consider that Maou-class are devils who have power equivalent to Gods, while Super Devils are Devils with powers beyond Gods.

He has not said it, but he also has not say so.

Serafall and Falbium are Satan Class tier, just that. While Sirzechs even in base is as strong or strogner than the original lucifer who was the strongest Maou.

Yeah, it was said that Satan could already rival the power of the weakest God's and they also had tricky powers which could lead them defeating the weakest gods.
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Old 2021-12-02, 22:17   Link #7570
kiiro94
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234 View Post
"It's simple. Currently in the Underworld, the four of you are by far the strongest demons, and to be honest, you're probably stronger than the deceased Maou. You are the most suitable candidates to occupy their thrones.”

It was enough have read Dx4 where Ravel stated Issei and even Grayfia to have a power maou-class or even better.
As a Member said, there is even class inbetween Satan class, I mean, Grayfia is as stong as 1 satan, or even greater, but not a superdevil.


Quote:
Maou-class is a class with powers inferior to Gods. I remember you how in vol7 Loki could easily handle together Azazel and Barakiel, two maou-class that were seen by him as Bugs? And Loki is neither a powerful God.

Super Devils, depending on their power have power that overpass or are equivalent to Gods. Depending on what level of Gods.

Neither Azazel or Barakiel are Satan Class, they are ultimate class tier as Angel or Devils.

And Super Devils could already rival the strongest Gods, even normal Satans such as belial could defeat low class Gods.

Quote:
Are we really going to believe to an old citation not more valid because the feats showed other? When the power of Gods weren’t really introduced and many thing changed?

In vol12 it was always said the difference between Ophis and Shiva was extremely immense, but then Ophis lost 1/4 of her power, neither half is weaker than Shiva.

Ishibumi said Typhoon was equal to Ddraig, but we have seen there is a big power gap even with the help of Apollon.

Loki could easily handle together two maou class beings and it’s not even a Chief God. Ddraig could easily handle Typhoon and Apollon. Indra, who is even more powerful firing from each attack an Infinity blaster should have difficulty to handle x4 maou?

Hell, even Hades that’s weaker was stated that Azazel, Sirzechs base form, Dulio (the victory card of Heaven) and Tobio (God level) together could not even challenge him.

Loki did x2 and During the peace meeting where there were him, Sirzechs, Serafall and Michael, Kiba stated Azazel’s power was the the second strongest here.
You are getting things wrong. Hades is like 4 times satan class, Dulio, Tobio and Azazel are nor satan class in their base, so it is obvious that Hades would had defeated them if they were all in base.

1/4 of the power of Ophis is wrong I believe, I dont quite remember.
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Old 2021-12-02, 22:29   Link #7571
kiiro94
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Originally Posted by B214 View Post
First off, where's your proof that Loki is a middle-class God? Also Norse is known to be more advance in magic than the Christianity. What's so weird if Loki who's a Norse God is able to use Norse magic proficiently to create an equation to negate Azazel and Barakiel's attack? Magic isn't all about power, there's equation involved in it as well.

Second, "Issei CxC was completely destroyed by Thanatos, a God-Class being." Your point? Ise also got trashed by Diehauser in CxC, are you going to say it was before unlocking DxD? You can say that but it doesn't change that Ise CxC still lost to Diehauser.

Third, "Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class."
Again, where in the story has it been mentioned that God-class is superior than Maou-class. This is going back to the Great Red > Ophis thing. Ishibumi never confirmed that, its just us fans thinking so. Also Devils aren't Gods, it doesn't make sense for them to be called God-class when they're beings that are direct opposite of them. As for Super Devils are, they are Devils that transcended logic, Sirzechs & Ajuka literally have hack like abilities that easily surpasses even Gods. Even Rizevim has the SG Canceller that would make a Longinus useless before him when a Longinus is created to kill Gods. The Rizevim portion is before Ise unlocking Penetrate.
The limits of devils already says that dont have the same raw power as the superior Gods.

Satan class is the pinacle of the devils power, and in a volume of Belial fighting the weakest gods was said, they he could overpower them thanks to the tricks of the Devils powers.

Satan Class is the weakest level of Gods, but they still can defeat them due their abilities. And Super Devils surpasses the limits of the Devils and surpassing even top gods.
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Old 2021-12-02, 22:39   Link #7572
kiiro94
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Originally Posted by Xuanwu View Post
The criteria for Ultimate-class is this:


From the comments of Issei in Volume 12 and Shin DxD 1, it's apparent that Ultimate-class devils are far more powerful than the usual High-class devils. Also from the fact that they were the ones mobilized to stop the Bandersnatch & Jabberwocky invasion.

So the criteria should be:

*Strength surpassing High-class devils
*Certain level of contribution in the Underworld
*Being a direct descendant of the original Maou (which would also mean far more demonic power than High-class devils)


I don't understand this, can you rephrase it?
There is a difference of being Ultimate Devil as title and having that power. The title you have to win it by accomplisments, even though having the power. For example Iseei himself.
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Old 2021-12-02, 23:53   Link #7573
B214
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The thing about Gods and Maou/Satan isn't about just strength from the start. Gods and Devils are opposite beings. Ise suffer minor damage simply by doing Buddhist chant. That was in V1. Prayers, light, items blessed with power of God or Buddha are known to be poison to Devil from V1, Rias even mention sunlight affects Devils too. If we're going to use a species' weakness to rank their strength, I suppose we need to consider Samael the strongest being then? Cause he can kill Ophis and maybe Great Red.
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Old 2021-12-03, 09:42   Link #7574
Giuseppe1234
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Originally Posted by kiiro94 View Post
As a Member said, there is even class inbetween Satan class, I mean, Grayfia is as stong as 1 satan, or even greater, but not a superdevil.





Neither Azazel or Barakiel are Satan Class, they are ultimate class tier as Angel or Devils.

And Super Devils could already rival the strongest Gods, even normal Satans such as belial could defeat low class Gods.



You are getting things wrong. Hades is like 4 times satan class, Dulio, Tobio and Azazel are nor satan class in their base, so it is obvious that Hades would had defeated them if they were all in base.

1/4 of the power of Ophis is wrong I believe, I dont quite remember.
Do you have any declaration to say something like Azazel or Barakiel are not Maou-class beings?

Leaving aside how much is illogic something like that because since the beginning the three faction were balanced in power (before the civil war and that Rivezim was introduced). Without Maou-class being the Fallen Angels would have been erased since the big war or before.

1. Kiba during the conference peace of vol4 said Azazel’s aura was the second strongest here, even though there were Serafall (maou-class) and Michael.

2. Kokabiel is ultimate class and is nowhere near the level of Azazel and even for the wings.

3. Issei said he could fight Barakiel only because his armour got enhanced (maou-class) and even without this, do you really think an ultimate class could fight Issei CxC maou class?

For your logic you are saying Azazel considerated their strength only in base form without BxB? It has not sense.

It like if I should bring Issei to fight a God and only because is in his base form, I say he can’t fight a God without considerate his full potential.

Anyway saying Hades is just x4 Maous is illogical when a weaker God like Loki could already handle two maou-class beings. Hades Handled the attacks of Two top 10 beings and all DxD team. Combined attacks maybe more powerful than 4 Maous.
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Old 2021-12-03, 12:24   Link #7575
kiiro94
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Originally Posted by B214 View Post
The thing about Gods and Maou/Satan isn't about just strength from the start. Gods and Devils are opposite beings. Ise suffer minor damage simply by doing Buddhist chant. That was in V1. Prayers, light, items blessed with power of God or Buddha are known to be poison to Devil from V1, Rias even mention sunlight affects Devils too. If we're going to use a species' weakness to rank their strength, I suppose we need to consider Samael the strongest being then? Cause he can kill Ophis and maybe Great Red.
Who was talking about that? I didnt understand you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234 View Post
Do you have any declaration to say something like Azazel or Barakiel are not Maou-class beings?

Leaving aside how much is illogic something like that because since the beginning the three faction were balanced in power (before the civil war and that Rivezim was introduced). Without Maou-class being the Fallen Angels would have been erased since the big war or before.

1. Kiba during the conference peace of vol4 said Azazel’s aura was the second strongest here, even though there were Serafall (maou-class) and Michael.

2. Kokabiel is ultimate class and is nowhere near the level of Azazel and even for the wings.

3. Issei said he could fight Barakiel only because his armour got enhanced (maou-class) and even without this, do you really think an ultimate class could fight Issei CxC maou class?

For your logic you are saying Azazel considerated their strength only in base form without BxB? It has not sense.

It like if I should bring Issei to fight a God and only because is in his base form, I say he can’t fight a God without considerate his full potential.

Anyway saying Hades is just x4 Maous is illogical when a weaker God like Loki could already handle two maou-class beings. Hades Handled the attacks of Two top 10 beings and all DxD team. Combined attacks maybe more powerful than 4 Maous.
What makes them weaker than Satan Class? Mmm it should be, what makes them on that tier?

First of all, it was said that Heaven and Hell were balanced, there is ultimate Angels such as Michael and there is Ultiamte Devils such as Tannin. If Ultimate level of Angels were able to fight the Maou, then there is no reason for God, hell and all the devils would be eradicated.

Ultimate level of Devils already rival the Serafin or the strongest Angels.

1.- Kiba's statement was wrong, proved when Catteleta was defeating Azazel without much problem and where he had to use his BxB to defeat her. Just as Azazel said he had to use BxB for Creusdarry which Sirzechs defeated with ease in base, heck, even Azazel said he had to use BxB for Pluto, a Ultimate Class Reaper.

To further prove that Kiba was wrong, even Akeno said that it was needed Sirzechs, a power level of Satan to defeat Kokabiel in Volumen 3

""Buchou criticised. But Akeno-san had an angry expression.

“Rias. I know that you don’t want to cause problems for Sirzechs-sama. It happened in your territory. In your base. And it happened after the family problem. But it’s a different story if the leader of the enemy appears. It is a problem that surpasses the level that you can solve. Let’s borrow the strength of a Maou.”"


They dont know very well the power levels. Also read this:

" The demonic power given off by Cattleya’s body swelled up and gave off an ominous aura. A mass that was near that of Sirzechs-sama and Serafall-sama... Just what on earth was that snake she just swallowed...? Azazel fired countless spears of light at her, but they easily vanished just by Cattleya calmly moving her right hand sideways. Such power! Even though you can say the Fallen Angel Governor Azazel’s power is the first or second most powerful of those here today!"

Kiba said that Cattleya power were close to Sirzechs and Serfall, which will make Catteya weaker than both, yet said that Azazel was the first or second strongest? Mmmm is a bit contradictive.

And then, when Azazel was inferior to Snake Catt, Azazel and Cat said the next:

"“Yes, he who is the Dragon that possesses infinite power. For the sake of the world’s reformation, I borrowed a little of his power. Thanks to that, I can fight against you. There’s even a chance that I can beat Sirzechs and Michael. They’re such foolish Governors, and so are you.”

“...So I am. I may be foolish. I can’t do anything without Shemhaza. I’m just a Sacred Gear enthusiast. —But you know, do you really think that Sirzechs and Michael are idiots? At least they’re far superior compared to someone mediocre like you.”"


Catt even with the power of Ophis, was not sure he could take Sirzechs or Michael and Azazel further proves that he is weaker than both.

2.- Yes, an Ultimate Class devil can fight a Satan Class, of course it wont win just as Barakiel lost. Barakiel was very inferior to Issei, he did have great power, but Issei was not going all out, even Barakiel admitted from a few hits he was not a rival and decided to run and hide for a moment.

3.- Once again dude, Azazel does not know the power of Dulio, Azazel just knew he was the strongest angel, he has never saw him use his balance breaker, and Tobio with his balance breaker is mid God Level at best at that moment, Dulio is an Ultimate level angel since Azazel does not know his power, Sirzechs is a Satan tier and Azazel is an Ultimate Class Angel too, as I already proven to you.

You are ignoring what Azazel knew at that time and trying to use what we know, which is different.

At best, Azazel thought that their power power combined could be 4 times satan class, at best since he didnt knew the real power of everyone.
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Old 2021-12-03, 14:27   Link #7576
Giuseppe1234
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[QUOTE=kiiro94;6493832]Who was talking about that? I didnt understand you.



What makes them weaker than Satan Class? Mmm it should be, what makes them on that tier?

Quote:
First of all, it was said that Heaven and Hell were balanced, there is ultimate Angels such as Michael and there is Ultiamte Devils such as Tannin. If Ultimate level of Angels were able to fight the Maou, then there is no reason for God, hell and all the devils would be eradicated.
So that’s how it is. Then “Lucifer” and “Beelzebub” isn’t a personal name but more like a managerial position.
“To tell you the truth, out of the three factions of the God, the Fallen Angels and the Devils, the Devils have the least power. We are actually in a tight spot but we are still safe because the current Maou-samas have powers equal to those of the previous Maou-samas.”

This was before Ishibumi introduced the Super Devils and other maou-class beings like Grayfia or Belial. So Fallen Angels have maou-class beings.

Michale like Uriel or Gabriel who are the strongest Angels are the four seraphs for a reason. After them there are the other 6 seraphs and below the Ultimate Angels.


Quote:
Ultimate level of Devils already rival the Serafin or the strongest Angels.
Not the four big Seraphs

Quote:
1.- Kiba's statement was wrong, proved when Catteleta was defeating Azazel without much problem and where he had to use his BxB to defeat her. Just as Azazel said he had to use BxB for Creusdarry which Sirzechs defeated with ease in base, heck, even Azazel said he had to use BxB for Pluto, a Ultimate Class Reaper.

Where and when She was defeating Azazel? Because in the novel after She enhanced her powers, suddenly an attack hit Azazel and was from Vali. Immediately after Azazel used Fenrir’s SG.

Quote:
Now, Fafnir. I will have you tag along with me. Our opponent is Creuserey Asmodeus! Let's go, Balance Break!”
When did he say he needed Fenrir to defeat him? If I can use an object to help him, for which reason shouldn’t I use it?

Quote:
To further prove that Kiba was wrong, even Akeno said that it was needed Sirzechs, a power level of Satan to defeat Kokabiel in Volumen 3

""Buchou criticised. But Akeno-san had an angry expression.

“Rias. I know that you don’t want to cause problems for Sirzechs-sama. It happened in your territory. In your base. And it happened after the family problem. But it’s a different story if the leader of the enemy appears. It is a problem that surpasses the level that you can solve. Let’s borrow the strength of a Maou.”"
Exactly in a such situation with one of the most important Fallen Angels, who should they call? The only important person and powerful that they knew with a direct link was Sirzechs.

Also the fact how Vali BxB defeated easily Kokabiel shows a maou wasn’t necessary. Vali BxB was said to be on the same level of CxC Issei before the power up.

Quote:
They dont know very well the power levels. Also read this:

" The demonic power given off by Cattleya’s body swelled up and gave off an ominous aura. A mass that was near that of Sirzechs-sama and Serafall-sama... Just what on earth was that snake she just swallowed...? Azazel fired countless spears of light at her, but they easily vanished just by Cattleya calmly moving her right hand sideways. Such power! Even though you can say the Fallen Angel Governor Azazel’s power is the first or second most powerful of those here today!"

Kiba said that Cattleya power were close to Sirzechs and Serfall, which will make Catteya weaker than both, yet said that Azazel was the first or second strongest? Mmmm is a bit contradictive.
Ishibumi is often contradictive, but doesn’t change.

Quote:
And then, when Azazel was inferior to Snake Catt, Azazel and Cat said the next:

"“Yes, he who is the Dragon that possesses infinite power. For the sake of the world’s reformation, I borrowed a little of his power. Thanks to that, I can fight against you. There’s even a chance that I can beat Sirzechs and Michael. They’re such foolish Governors, and so are you.”

“...So I am. I may be foolish. I can’t do anything without Shemhaza. I’m just a Sacred Gear enthusiast. —But you know, do you really think that Sirzechs and Michael are idiots? At least they’re far superior compared to someone mediocre like you.”"


Catt even with the power of Ophis, was not sure he could take Sirzechs or Michael and Azazel further proves that he is weaker than both.
Catt said only thanks to her power up she could now fight Azazel. Another point confirming he’s maou class.

Even if Michael and Sirzechs should be more powerful, what does change? Because in every level there are three tier and this just shows those just are on a higher tier of maou class.

Sairaorg in vol9 was much stronger than Rias? Does it mean she’s not high class? No, that Rias is on an inferior tier.

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2.- Yes, an Ultimate Class devil can fight a Satan Class, of course it wont win just as Barakiel lost. Barakiel was very inferior to Issei, he did have great power, but Issei was not going all out, even Barakiel admitted from a few hits he was not a rival and decided to run and hide for a moment.
Are you really saying a weaker opponent can face a stronger opponent? Because has not logic.
Issei CxC were easily destroyed by Belial in vol20 because Issei wasn't maou class.

High-class devils can’t fight Ultimate devils class and for your logic Ultimate devils can fight Maou class devils even if they’re weaker?

Still Barakiel fought Issei when he went out with so many boost and else.
Anyway Issei stated he could fight Barakiel only because was Maou-class, are you going to go against the novel?

I forgot Armaros who is even Maou-class and fought Rossweisse and Grayfia without being eliminated.

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3.- Once again dude, Azazel does not know the power of Dulio, Azazel just knew he was the strongest angel, he has never saw him use his balance breaker, and Tobio with his balance breaker is mid God Level at best at that moment, Dulio is an Ultimate level angel since Azazel does not know his power, Sirzechs is a Satan tier and Azazel is an Ultimate Class Angel too, as I already proven to you.
Based on what Azazel doesn’t know Dulio’s power? Only because he didn’t see it? Doesn’t matter, it’s Ishibumi who is affirming that.

Did someone see the four maou fight Indra? No, but everyone uses that citation.
Did Issei never see Sirzechs true form? No, but he knew Rivezim was far inferior.
Did Rossweisse ever see Vidar fight Thor? No, but she knew Vidar was on the same level of his brother.

So the fact he didn’t see Dulio fight is not relevant. Do you really believe the TRUMP CARD of Heaven is just ultimate class? Wow, they have planty of ultimate angels.

Mid God level, not bad considerating Loki could easily handle two maou class beings and for you Dulio is on that level.

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are ignoring what Azazel knew at that time and trying to use what we know, which is different.

At best, Azazel thought that their power power combined could be 4 times satan class, at best since he didnt knew the real power of everyone
This logic doesn’t count for the story, otherwise almost every statement Should not be valid because X didn’t see Y
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Old 2021-12-03, 23:32   Link #7577
kiiro94
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
[QUOTE=Giuseppe1234;6493839]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiiro94 View Post

So that’s how it is. Then “Lucifer” and “Beelzebub” isn’t a personal name but more like a managerial position.
“To tell you the truth, out of the three factions of the God, the Fallen Angels and the Devils, the Devils have the least power. We are actually in a tight spot but we are still safe because the current Maou-samas have powers equal to those of the previous Maou-samas.”

This was before Ishibumi introduced the Super Devils and other maou-class beings like Grayfia or Belial. So Fallen Angels have maou-class beings.

Michale like Uriel or Gabriel who are the strongest Angels are the four seraphs for a reason. After them there are the other 6 seraphs and below the Ultimate Angels.
Military power. That is the same reason they had to make the Chess pieces, this was already said. The devils suffered a lot of losses, that is the reason they had to do chess pieces and reincarnete devils.

But thanks that they still have OP characters such as Maous, then they are ok. You are just twisting things.

And Angels are not Satan Class, nothing says that. What I can say, is that even though they are weaker, they have the natural weakness of Devils,

Read this:

"Mirana-san created an extremely large spear of light (its power was almost on the same level as a Fallen Angel Cadre) to easily obliterate her spells."

"—In the prime of Your Eminence, you were able to totally defeat Fallen Angel cadres, and also ultimate-class Devils. Even the Maous were fearful of your sword.”"


Azazel is Cadre, an Ultimate Class Angel, and yet there is still a distinction between Satan Class power and Cadre or Ultimate Class such as Azazel.

Mirana, is said to have power near or equal to Azazel and she can take on Ultimate Class Devils.

Quote:
Not the four big Seraphs
Of course they could. Talking about pure power.

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Where and when She was defeating Azazel? Because in the novel after She enhanced her powers, suddenly an attack hit Azazel and was from Vali. Immediately after Azazel used FenrirÂ’s SG.

When did he say he needed Fenrir to defeat him? If I can use an object to help him, for which reason shouldnÂ’t I use it? ​
They were equal mostly before the Snake of Ophis. Catt use the snake of Ophis and reached a power near Sirzechs and Serafall, Satan Class and then she was superior to Azazel. Dude I already proved you wrong in so many ways.

Azazel was out of her league, he had to use his sacred gear in balance breaker to ddefeat Catt.


And now Azazel was gonna use his SG just because he wanted and not needed? Lol, the same happened with Catt, he needs more power for Satan Class tiers.


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Exactly in a such situation with one of the most important Fallen Angels, who should they call? The only important person and powerful that they knew with a direct link was Sirzechs.

Also the fact how Vali BxB defeated easily Kokabiel shows a maou wasnÂ’t necessary. Vali BxB was said to be on the same level of CxC Issei before the power up.
Not call, display the power of a Satan. Their understanding of tiers is not 100% correct. This just proves they could be wrong.


Quote:
Ishibumi is often contradictive, but doesnÂ’t change.



Catt said only thanks to her power up she could now fight Azazel. Another point confirming heÂ’s maou class.

Even if Michael and Sirzechs should be more powerful, what does change? Because in every level there are three tier and this just shows those just are on a higher tier of maou class.

Sairaorg in vol9 was much stronger than Rias? Does it mean sheÂ’s not high class? No, that Rias is on an inferior tier.
What is important, is that Catt was near Sirzechs power lol. And she was rejecting Azazel's attack with no problem, yeah, she could fight Azazel since before the Snake, they were pretty much equal with Azazel winning, both Ultimate Class, Azazel being stronger.

Then she uses the Snake, boosts her power near Sirzechs, and then she was casually negging his attacks, yet she still doubts if she could win Sirzechs lol.

And there is still a difference between being a Satan and Ultimate Class. Tannin is an Ultimate Class devil with power near Satan, yet still not on that tier.


Quote:
Are you really saying a weaker opponent can face a stronger opponent? Because has not logic.
Issei CxC were easily destroyed by Belial in vol20 because Issei wasn't maou class.
Yeah, Belial is OP. Barakiel is a Ultimate Class tier and was still fighting Issei was a Maou class, so they can fight them even if it is for a moment when the difference is not that huge.

And you are wrong, Belial never destroyed his CxC, that was Rizevim, still, Belial was stronger.

High-class devils canÂ’t fight Ultimate devils class and for your logic Ultimate devils can fight Maou class devils even if theyÂ’re weaker?

Still Barakiel fought Issei when he went out with so many boost and else.
Anyway Issei stated he could fight Barakiel only because was Maou-class, are you going to go against the novel?

Quote:
Based on what Azazel doesnÂ’t know DulioÂ’s power? Only because he didnÂ’t see it? DoesnÂ’t matter, itÂ’s Ishibumi who is affirming that.

Did someone see the four maou fight Indra? No, but everyone uses that citation.
Did Issei never see Sirzechs true form? No, but he knew Rivezim was far inferior.
Did Rossweisse ever see Vidar fight Thor? No, but she knew Vidar was on the same level of his brother.

So the fact he didnÂ’t see Dulio fight is not relevant. Do you really believe the TRUMP CARD of Heaven is just ultimate class? Wow, they have planty of ultimate angels.

Mid God level, not bad considerating Loki could easily handle two maou class beings and for you Dulio is on that level.



This logic doesnÂ’t count for the story, otherwise almost every statement Should not be valid because X didnÂ’t see Y
Your comments just shows that they do baseless confirmations. Azazel though they will lose since he did not know their powers.

Sirzechs > Michael > Azazel
Satan > Serphin > Cadre
Satan > Ultimate Devil > Ultimate Devil.

Both Michael and Azazel are Ultimate devil tier as power, they could fight Sirzechs for sure, but Satan is still a tier above.
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Old 2021-12-04, 04:49   Link #7578
B214
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Join Date: Jul 2014
But Azazel's true worth isn't at his strength though. Even Cao Cao mention it to Ise.

Quote:
“Oh man! Seriously, taking on you who defeated Azazel-sensei sure is a pain!”

“Governor Azazel huh. Certainly I defeated him in the battle back then, but if we fight again I will most likely not win so easily.”

“? Why’s that?”

His fighting was overwhelming. The part where he dodged Sensei’s attack and then immediately impaled his spear into Sensei has been burnt deeply into my brain. I still can’t believe Sensei lost. That’s what I thought, but Cao Cao says words which I never could have anticipated.

“There’s no way I can look down on that Governor. Those scientist-type warriors will research their opponent until their battle strategy is flawless for the next time they fight them. For guys like me who will be taken down with a single heavy blow, those type of opponents are truly frightening. That’s why I realised the Governor’s strength in our first fight, and defeated him in my second fight against him. –But the third time will be dangerous for me.”
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Old 2021-12-04, 15:40   Link #7579
Giuseppe1234
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Join Date: Sep 2019
[QUOTE=kiiro94;6493878]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234 View Post

Military power. That is the same reason they had to make the Chess pieces, this was already said. The devils suffered a lot of losses, that is the reason they had to do chess pieces and reincarnete devils.
But thanks that they still have OP characters such as Maous, then they are ok. You are just twisting things.
You are not understanding the quote. Fallen Angels are the smallest faction among the three faction and still Devil had the smallest power even though the evil pieces and were able to compete only thanks to the current Maous.

Exactly how do you think Fallen Angels could compete and have more power than the devils with their Maous with less members? having Maou-class beings.

Quote:
And Angels are not Satan Class, nothing says that. What I can say, is that even though they are weaker, they have the natural weakness of Devils,
Are you unable to understand? Where did I said Angels are Satan Class? Specifically I said the Four grand Seraph or at least Gabriel and Michael are.

Read this:

Quote:
"Mirana-san created an extremely large spear of light (its power was almost on the same level as a Fallen Angel Cadre) to easily obliterate her spells."

"—In the prime of Your Eminence, you were able to totally defeat Fallen Angel cadres, and also ultimate-class Devils. Even the Maous were fearful of your sword.”"


Azazel is Cadre, an Ultimate Class Angel, and yet there is still a distinction between Satan Class power and Cadre or Ultimate Class such as Azazel.

Mirana, is said to have power near or equal to Azazel and she can take on Ultimate Class Devils.
And exactly how is relevant? The Cadre level is mainly formed by Ultimate Class beings and only three are confirmed to be maou class. Or are you assuming Kokabiel is on the same level of Barakiel and Azazel?

Vasco defeated Kokabiel that’s not Maou-class being.

Quote:
They were equal mostly before the Snake of Ophis. Catt use the snake of Ophis and reached a power near Sirzechs and Serafall, Satan Class and then she was superior to Azazel. Dude I already proved you wrong in so many ways.
You never proved I’m wrong in no one way, going against the declaration of characters.

Catt who specifically said one she reached the maou-class that could only thanks to the snake she could now fight Azazel? Strange. Because I remember Catt was completely dominated by Azazel before.

No one ever stated Azazel was inferior

Sure, not mentioning Azazel’s aura was the second strongest even if there were Serafall or Michael

Quote:
Azazel was out of her league, he had to use his sacred gear in balance breaker to ddefeat Catt.
And now Azazel was gonna use his SG just because he wanted and not needed? Lol, the same happened with Catt, he needs more power for Satan Class tiers.
I have a power weapon who can help me to instantly defeat maou class beings rather than have a hard fight being of the same level, for which reason shouldn’t I use it?

Quote:
Of course they could. Talking about pure power.
Based on what? The four big seraphs are different because are the strongest Angels having maou-class powers, at least confirmed for Gabriel and Michael.



Quote:
Not call, display the power of a Satan. Their understanding of tiers is not 100% correct. This just proves they could be wrong.
How is relevant the understanding of tiers is not 100% correct? Sirzechs was the only member they could call or do you think they knew some ultimate class devil?

Anyway Vali demonstrated a maou class being wasn’t necessary to defeat Kokabiel


Quote:
What is important, is that Catt was near Sirzechs power lol. And she was rejecting Azazel's attack with no problem, yeah, she could fight Azazel since before the Snake, they were pretty much equal with Azazel winning, both Ultimate Class, Azazel being stronger.
Are you going to ignore another time Catt who said she could now fight Azazel only because her power now was Maou-class level? Azazel was easily winning the fight.

Quote:
Then she uses the Snake, boosts her power near Sirzechs, and then she was casually negging his attacks, yet she still doubts if she could win Sirzechs lol.
And there is still a difference between being a Satan and Ultimate Class. Tannin is an Ultimate Class devil with power near Satan, yet still not on that tier.
Because Sirzechs in his base form and Ajuka not serious are still the strongest Maou-class beings of ever.
I already explained you there are tiers in every class and the difference between them are immense. Clearly Azazel is not on the high-tier.

Are you making a discussion without know the difference between having maou-class power and not having a such status on the society?

First, Satan is the title of devil society for the four great kings and because the Satans were so powerful, they created a power level based on their strength for anyone who can rivals them or overpass.

Exactly this is what someone means when someone has Maou-class powers.

Second, Tannin in raw power is Maou-class beings and the fact he’s ultimate devil class is irrelevant because is a noble title and the highest you can reach on the devil society.

Belial is ultimate class devil with maou class powe.

Quote:
Yeah, Belial is OP. Barakiel is a Ultimate Class tier and was still fighting Issei was a Maou class, so they can fight them even if it is for a moment when the difference is not that huge.
Again, Barakiel is maou-class. Read even the damned Wiki that confirm my own version and no one aside you said it’s wrong, strange.
They fought for the whole match and Issei went out using dozens of Boost.

An ultimate class can’t fight a maou-class not even for a second. Or shall I remember you how the Maous’descendants were easily killed in Zero?

Oh yes, you are negating Issei’s declaration where him-self said he could fight Barakiel only because his strength was maou-class.

Quote:
And you are wrong, Belial never destroyed his CxC, that was Rizevim, still, Belial was stronger.
Issei said he couldn’t do nothing against Belial due to their power gap and Belial was easily avoiding all his assaults.

Or how successfully Belial blitzed and stopped Issei, doing drink him the blood?

Quote:
High-class devils canÂ’t fight Ultimate devils class and for your logic Ultimate devils can fight Maou class devils even if theyÂ’re weaker?

Still Barakiel fought Issei when he went out with so many boost and else.
Anyway Issei stated he could fight Barakiel only because was Maou-class, are you going to go against the novel?
Ar you going against the novel? Exactly this one is you ignoring Issei who specifically said he could fight Barakiel now only because his power where maou-class.



Quote:
Your comments just shows that they do baseless confirmations. Azazel though they will lose since he did not know their powers.
Your comments are irrelevant based only on the fact Azazel didn’t see their BxB, but still you are ignoring it’s Ishibumi who is writting it. Every declaration is done even though such character didn’t see/know the other one and you for you this is not valid?

Quote:
Sirzechs > Michael > Azazel
Satan > Serphin > Cadre
Satan > Ultimate Devil > Ultimate Devil.

Both Michael and Azazel are Ultimate devil tier as power, they could fight Sirzechs for sure, but Satan is still a tier above.
Do you not even know there are difference between Seraphins ignoring there are the four big seraphs for a reason with a higher position like if they were all the same.

Same thing for the Cadre ignoring it’s not always in this way because there are Maou-class fighters.

Go and read the wiki. Michael is ultimate class as Azazel? Explain me so how Devils had smallest power with maou-class beings when the other faction didn’t have?

Because they have maou-class beings. Catt who said only because was maou class she could fight Azazel and even Michael.

Ultimate class can’t fight Maou-class beings, stop with this that’s doesn’t exist. High-class devils can’t fight ultimate class devils.

And why did you even do another discussion on Reddit on the same argument without reply anymore?
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Old 2021-12-04, 16:31   Link #7580
bashkim1234
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuanwu View Post
The criteria for Ultimate-class is this:


From the comments of Issei in Volume 12 and Shin DxD 1, it's apparent that Ultimate-class devils are far more powerful than the usual High-class devils. Also from the fact that they were the ones mobilized to stop the Bandersnatch & Jabberwocky invasion.

So the criteria should be:

*Strength surpassing High-class devils
*Certain level of contribution in the Underworld
*Being a direct descendant of the original Maou (which would also mean far more demonic power than High-class devils)


I don't understand this, can you rephrase it?
Well first thank you for your response.
I am sorry, that I did not explained well:
The classes did not make sense, because they are social status in the underworld, although they are also used as measurement for strength. How strong a devil must be to be qualified to be an ultimate class devil in terms of strengths? I mean sure you need to be stronger than a high-class devil, but not all the high class devil are equal in strength: I mean Sairaorg Bael defeated Zephyrdor. Sure this guy was joke, but his demonic power are above Rias. And Sairaorg has barely any demonic powers.

Well I will try to explained in detail: When Sona´s sister was introduce, Sona was worried, because he knew she has a sister complex, as she could destroy Japan easy sure Japan is not a big country, but we got an idea how strong a satan class devil might be. We did not knew full strength of her based just on Sona´s comment, but it was just a guess. As the story continued we learn that even the weakest god surpass a satan class devil in terms of strength. So we were introduce to Vali´s grandfather Rizevim Livan Lucifer who was the first super devil. We learn that, when a devil exceed the power of Maou he is consider irregular as devil or a super devil. So rivals the gods. Sure the author never stated, that Rizevim Livan Lucifer was among the 10 strongest. So it means, that when you surpass the satan level you are super devil. We know that Sirzeches and Ajkua are among the top 10. Rizevim could fight with Ise DxD mode G was far stronger, that his pseudo DxD mode.
So if a devil surpass Maou level he is super devil, because a super devil is just a god class being. So when Rias use her Forbidden Invade Balor the Princess for the first time her power was above Satan level. Does this idea make sense ? In my honest opinion,no. If you surpass Satan level you reached the power of the gods, which are stronger than a satan level. So if Rias´s and Sairorg are above satan classed, why are the not superdevil? As Ise stated about Sairorg, that his power is above satan class. He would need his pseudo DxD mode to fight Saiorg. Which proves, that he has reached the level of the gods. I mean we know Ise CxC is satan class why he did not think about to use Boost to increase his satan power? Ise has realized that it does matter how much he Booted his power, it would not be enough to fight Sairorg, so he needs his strongest form to win.
It is unforunted that Sairogr has reached his limit.

Last edited by bashkim1234; 2021-12-04 at 17:12. Reason: Correction
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