Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[winkel]

Originally Posted by CCLemon

Some things I don't understand about the Umineko-universe...

1. So Ange pops in from the third game's universe to assist Battler in solving the fourth game. With Umineko taking place in a multiverse with very thin walls, why aren't we seeing thousands of Beatrices and Battlers running around?

2. Meta-Battler is the first iteration's Battler after he died and went to purgatorio, correct? Where do all the other Battlers go (and for that matter, all the other Ushiromiyas) go to when they die, then?

From what I understand, it's more like a game reset than parallel universes. Each time they play the game, something different happens because that's the nature of a game like chess... no two games will be the same.

Everyone is resettable except the meta-characters (meta-Battler, meta-Beatrice, meta-Virgillia?)

Which is why I didn't really expect Beatrice to die from Eva-Beato's attacks. And I guess this means Beatrice was the one true Endless Witch all along and we all just got trolled?

So the board was reset again, but this time a piece-Ange has been placed on the board? Did Bernkastel pulling her through time-space create a meta-Ange as well? Will she be alongside Battler in the metaverse?

Or am I supposed to not believe in time-travel magic and doubt the existence of Agne first of all.

[ChibiBear]

Wow... I officially give up on trying to solve everything as of right now...

[Bordix]

I'm so fucking confused

So all that acting to force him to sign some piece of paper? Why couldn't they've done that in the first place? I wasn't really surprised at Beato's betrayal since I accidentally spoiled my self in another forum. I was actually more surprised at Virgillia, that sly fox totally fooled me. At least now we know where Beato gets her shit from.

What happened to eva-beatrice? beato couldn't have denied witches, since they're pretty much still there.

Ange's apathetic attitude amuses me, hope we get to see more of her.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Bordix

I'm so fucking confused

So all that acting to force him to sign some piece of paper? Why couldn't they've done that in the first place? I wasn't really surprised at Beato's betrayal since I accidentally spoiled my self in another forum. I was actually more surprised at Virgillia, that sly fox totally fooled me. At least now we know where Beato gets her shit from.

What happened to eva-beatrice? beato couldn't have denied witches, since they're pretty much still there.

Ange's apathetic attitude amuses me, hope we get to see more of her.

Yeah, I was hating tsundere Beatrice and I dropped my guard down thinking she's heads over heels for Battler.

My heart wasn't prepared and I was sure Virgillia was the next holy Mary.

I loved this episode though, It got me all hooked up again for the upcoming arc.

[MeoTwister5]

To those who got trolled:

Welcome to Umineko.

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by Bordix

So all that acting to force him to sign some piece of paper? Why couldn't they've done that in the first place?

Rather than offering my own hare-brained explanation, let's make sure we all understand the philosophy of avoiding force.

We can start with Aesop's fable of the North Wind and the Sun. It basically was about how the North Wind and the Sun wanted to prove who was the strongest by seeing if they can get the traveler to take off his cloak.

The North Wind blew some heavy winds at the traveler, and thus he held his cloak tighter.
The Sun, on the other hand, simply shined on the traveler. Feeling warm, he takes off his cloak.
The moral of the story is that the power of suggestion can be greater than that of force.

Could they have gotten Battler to this point of almost signing the paper entirely by force? Maybe, but even the witches agreed that they couldn't do it. Hence the North Wind and the Sun method.

[winkel]

Originally Posted by Bordix

What happened to eva-beatrice? beato couldn't have denied witches, since they're pretty much still there.

In the end she was still a piece. And was thus reset with the end of the game.

Originally Posted by Bordix

So all that acting to force him to sign some piece of paper? Why couldn't they've done that in the first place?

Because he would have never gotten within 10 feet of that paper otherwise.

Also I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have 100% forced him (maybe persuade him a bit more with those sad eyes and sweet words) until Ange burst in and outed the entire sham for what it was, and that was when Beatrice dropped all pretense.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

To those who got trolled:

Welcome to Umineko.

If getting trolled is the entrance I don't think it'll have many returning visitors .

At any rate will fall back to my original strategy. Just trust that Battler isn't the bad guy. If that fails I just give up. I'll put my trust into Battler, Ange, and even Bernkastel. She wants to win and her winning is Battler winning so it should all work out. Just seems like we'll have a shifting of allies when the next game starts. Though I suppose as allies go your sister 12 years older than you remember her isn't too bad. She still doesn't have that line of Battler's down with the same enthusiasm though.

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Rather than offering my own hare-brained explanation, let's make sure we all understand the philosophy of avoiding force.

We can start with Aesop's fable of the North Wind and the Sun. It basically was about how the North Wind and the Sun wanted to prove who was the strongest by seeing if they can get the traveler to take off his cloak.

The North Wind blew some heavy winds at the traveler, and thus he held his cloak tighter.
The Sun, on the other hand, simply shined on the traveler. Feeling warm, he takes off his cloak.
The moral of the story is that the power of suggestion can be greater than that of force.

Could they have gotten Battler to this point of almost signing the paper entirely by force? Maybe, but even the witches agreed that they couldn't do it. Hence the North Wind and the Sun method.

I think that sun and win plan was pretty straight forward. Just seems odd to me they would go through all of that to practically try to force him to write down his name at the end. The moment he had the smallest doubt they practically dropped the act and started chanting "sign" in odd voices. That's only going to make him less interested in signing the thing. Even if Ange hadn't shown up I couldn't see Battler willingly sign his name which seems to be the main point. Feels like they screwed up their own plan right at the end.

[MarthX]

Lambadadelta did ask Beatrice if she's even trying to win.

Seems that Beatrice doesn't really care about winning. She just wants to have fun and playing Battler's emotions is fun.

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I think that sun and win plan was pretty straight forward. Just seems odd to me they would go through all of that to practically try to force him to write down his name at the end. The moment he had the smallest doubt they practically dropped the act and started chanting "sign" in odd voices. That's only going to make him less interested in signing the thing. Even if Ange hadn't shown up I couldn't see Battler willingly sign his name which seems to be the main point. Feels like they screwed up their own plan right at the end.

We don't know for a fact that Battler wouldn't have signed it without Ange's intervention, though he was sure pretty hesitant.

If I were the witches, I would have continued the persuasion act; I would be all nonchalant about signing the document.

[Crontica]

Back to the point at hand. Unless Berntaskel provided Ange with some Superiorly Epic Ammunition. She isn't going to beable to land even a scratch on Virgilia / Beatrice as they wipe the floor with her.

[Bordix]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The moment he had the smallest doubt they practically dropped the act and started chanting "sign" in odd voices. That's only going to make him less interested in signing the thing. Even if Ange hadn't shown up I couldn't see Battler willingly sign his name which seems to be the main point. Feels like they screwed up their own plan right at the end.

This. not to mention they started doing weird faces

Spoiler for :

pic stolen at page 2

Yup, If I was battler I'll slowly start walking away.... don't want anything thats got to do with them

She isn't going to beable to land even a scratch on Virgilia / Beatrice as they wipe the floor with her.

but she just sorta did

[MeoTwister5]

I think it be best to take this to the speculations thread...

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Bordix

but she just sorta did

*Rewatches* Dam missed that one. That was a pretty quick and shift kick to the chin, element of surprise i say! It still doesn't remove the fact that they are walking Magical Time Bombs.

[Christen]

In the novel, when Battler started hesitating, Virgilia even commanded the goats to force Battler to sign the thing.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by winkel

Also I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have 100% forced him (maybe persuade him a bit more with those sad eyes and sweet words) until Ange burst in and outed the entire sham for what it was, and that was when Beatrice dropped all pretense.

Actually, she (and Virgilia) pretty much dropped the act (or at least fumbled it rather badly) right _before_ Angie showed up. Given Battler's contrary personality, maybe she really did throw the game? (Hence LD's comment about Beato not trying to win.)
(Agh, ninja'ed.)

As for what Beato said to Eva-B, my guess would be the real identity of the "other murderer" (who killed Nanjo, etc.), which would wipe out Eva-B's reason for existing.

One major complaint about the art in this episode: HUMAN EYES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. Squashing characters' irises like that dumps them at the bottom of the Uncanny Valley. Aside from that, no big complaints.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

Actually, she (and Virgilia) pretty much dropped the act (or at least fumbled it rather badly) right _before_ Angie showed up. Given Battler's contrary personality, maybe she really did throw the game? (Hence LD's comment about Beato not trying to win.)

As for what Beato said to Eva-B, my guess would be the real identity of the "other murderer" (who killed Nanjo, etc.), which would wipe out Eva-B's reason for existing.

One major complaint about the art in this episode: HUMAN EYES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. Squashing characters' irises like that dumps them at the bottom of the Uncanny Valley. Aside from that, no big complaints.

I see im not the only one who is bothered by that. Maximum Psychopath Effect is achieved by shrinking the iris as their eyes bug out of control, or turning the face into some disturbed feline entity, so far they have failed in both.

[Child_of_Sierra]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

At any rate will fall back to my original strategy. Just trust that Battler isn't the bad guy. If that fails I just give up. I'll put my trust into Battler, Ange, and even Bernkastel. She wants to win and her winning is Battler winning so it should all work out.

That's a tricky one. She was actually honest enough to state from the start that she's only helping out of a whim. Her idea of a win may not be the same as what Battler wishes for.

[Ithekro]

Well Ange is the head of the family...so she must have some powers...or so you'd think. Last head of the family went all witch on everyone (Eva-Beatrice).

[Riskbreaker]

Originally Posted by Bordix

So all that acting to force him to sign some piece of paper? Why couldn't they've done that in the first place?

I think it's something purely along the lines of this: Namely, the challenge. I'm sure if she wanted to, Beato could've easily just summoned her goat servants or the stakes to physically force Battler to put pen to paper. But where's the entertainment value in that? Both Beato & Bernkastel complained about how boredom is a killer for witches, so the problem with that means is that it would remove all challenging aspects from the game and no longer make it "fun" for her, seeing as she seemed to get kicks out of playing elaborate schemes in order to make Battler agree with her through his own free will, hence why that was one of the original reasons behind her firstly agreeing to play the game with him.