(L) Zaregoto Series (Light Novel discussion)

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Wait a second, Human Failure most definitely is not a psychopath.
He is actually the more normal one when compared to Defective Product.
Human Failure cannot relate to others due to learned behaviors, unlike Defective Product who's personality is internally screwed up.

Zerozaki was well received, so he had to be "herofied" in the latter books, but in the second book essentially he was someone who killed 12 people. He got the glib empty talk of a psychopath, as well as the lack of nervousness. There is also something mentioned in the latter books that could be used to argue he is indeed a psychopath, though in the end the series was not meant to be that consistent.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Spoiler for Ii-chan:

What's funny here is that the early portions of the book make such a show of condemning people who impose their values onto other people, and then we have Ii-chan here who unabashedly forces his views onto his peers.

Spoiler for Ii-chan:

That's not really it. The thing is, Ii-chan knew Mikoko had killed Tomoe. It didn't take him much to figure it out. He also already knew Mikoko was head over heels for him. In the end though he couldn't accept to be associate himself with a murderer, so he tried to sweeten the blow by taking Mikoko out for a date, and then said her something that would have made her stop hanging out with him. It was an indirect message to Mikoko, he wasn't really trying to force his views onto his peer. He would have liked Mikoko to confess to police. He didn't foresee Mikoko would have killed herself, in fact he stated beforehand he didn't understand other people's emotions (and he even talked with Zerozaki expressly to understand how a killer thinks like!).

Originally Posted by Qilin

As he puts it, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I think the original word was 偽善者, which literally means "person who feigns goodness", usually translated with "hypocrite". "Wolf" gives it an aggressive nuance, which maybe was not necessarily intended by the author.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Zerozaki was well received, so he had to be "herofied" in the latter books, but in the second book essentially he was someone who killed 12 people. He got the glib empty talk of a psychopath, as well as the lack of nervousness. There is also something mentioned in the latter books that could be used to argue he is indeed a psychopath, though in the end the series was not meant to be that consistent.

I would not agree with this either.
Even though I would say he is the more normal one between the too, I also had no doubt he is a sorrier excuse of a human being then Defective Product.

Spoiler:

At least Defective Product recognize his own problem and confronted time to time. And there is also the effort he made to make up what had he done to Dead Blue back then.
But Human Failure... just... in the end, whether avoid understanding it or is truly obvious... he STILL couldn't figure out what went wrong between himself and Man Eater by the end of the series. I can understand he wants to stay on the train of being a murder to protect his own identity, and I won't blame him 100% for his cruel words to the Man Eater way back then. But... how can he still not see his own problem AFTER his truth has been pointed out. This fact has traumatized me ever since the series ended, and I truly feel sorry for Man Eater.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Spoiler for Ii-chan:

That's not really it. The thing is, Ii-chan knew Mikoko had killed Tomoe. It didn't take him much to figure it out. He also already knew Mikoko was head over heels for him. In the end though he couldn't accept to be associate himself with a murderer, so he tried to sweeten the blow by taking Mikoko out for a date, and then said her something that would have made her stop hanging out with him. It was an indirect message to Mikoko, he wasn't really trying to force his views onto his peer. He would have liked Mikoko to confess to police. He didn't foresee Mikoko would have killed herself, in fact he stated beforehand he didn't understand other people's emotions (and he even talked with Zerozaki expressly to understand how a killer thinks like!).

Spoiler for interpretation:

This is how I interpreted it:

He figured out Mikoko's murder early on, so he decided to confront her about it under the guise of a date. He then indirectly condemns her actions and that she deserves to die or go to hell or such. Basically, he was aiming to burden her with the guilt of her crime. That's all he was hoping for. Afterwards, he expected her to turn herself in or somehow show some indication of her guilt. The fact that she ended up killing herself was a surprise to him, but it mattered very little since he already did what he wanted to do. The confrontation with Muimi proceeded in a similar fashion, albeit more direct to the point.

Which parts of it are wrong exactly?

If there was any character in this story he had a connection with (minus the recurring cast), it would be Tomoe, given their similar outward personalities, and that he personally felt responsible for her death.

Originally Posted by Shikijin

I think the original word was 偽善者, which literally means "person who feigns goodness", usually translated with "hypocrite". "Wolf" gives it an aggressive nuance, which maybe was not necessarily intended by the author.

That's how Del Rey translated it, though I didn't intend to use it in that context. I just meant that he consciously uses his aloof, apathetic exterior to hide something much more terrible.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Spoiler:

he STILL couldn't figure out what went wrong between himself and Man Eater by the end of the series.

I can't comment until I have read that part, but as I said, he is a psychopath.

Spoiler:

As written in Nekosogi Radical part 3, the Zerozakis don't feel anything. I think that's the similarity with Ii-chan, though Ii-chan just numbed himself out because too many people were dying near him, Hitoshiki is just born that way.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Spoiler for interpretation:

Basically, he was aiming to burden her with the guilt of her crime. That's all he was hoping for. Afterwards, he expected her to turn herself in or somehow show some indication of her guilt. The fact that she ended up killing herself was a surprise to him, but it mattered very little since he already did what he wanted to do.

Spoiler:

You forgot that in the note Mikoko left there was only written "I wanted you to save me". He did all the rest on his own initiative, because he felt responsible. Basically, for pity.

Ii-chan felt Tomoe understood him better than many other people, and he regretted he didn't have the chance to talk to her more. In the end though he didn't hate Mikoko for having killed Tomoe, because he was an outsider from the start. He didn't like Mikoko, but he bore no ill will toward her.

This point maybe is hard for those who don't understand schizoid thinking. Ii-chan meant to separate himself from Mikoko. From the distance, inside a buffer, he could have all sort of fuzzy feelings towards her. Maybe he even found her funny or cute someway. Ultimately though this didn't matter to him, he wasn't interested in her to begin with and then she even became a murderer. It's not like he couldn't feel any pity towards her when she died. And he didn't want her to die, though he had a reasonable guess she could attempt suicide (and he went at length to prevent that). Objectively though she was less than worthless, she was harmful. She killed a person out of jealousy, and it was not even guaranteed she would have stopped there.

(And Mikoko at least did it for herself. Atemiya did it for the sake of others (shifting responsibilities), so he went down hard on her)

I repeat, Ii-chan bore no ill will toward Mikoko. He didn't hate her. He wasn't even trying to punish her, he just wanted her to take responsibility. He didn't even manipulate her to commit suicide, so it's not his fault she died. He took every step to assure Mikoko wouldn't commit suicide. In the end he still feels a bit guilty, but precisely because he did all he could for her he doesn't blame himself much. Things just went that way.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Spoiler:

You forgot that in the note Mikoko left there was only written "I wanted you to save me". He did all the rest on his own initiative, because he felt responsible. Basically, for pity.

Ii-chan felt Tomoe understood him better than many other people, and he regretted he didn't have the chance to talk to her more. In the end though he didn't hate Mikoko for having killed Tomoe, because he was an outsider from the start. He didn't like Mikoko, but he bore no ill will toward her.

This point maybe is hard for those who don't understand schizoid thinking. Ii-chan meant to separate himself from Mikoko. From the distance, inside a buffer, he could have all sort of fuzzy feelings towards her. Maybe he even found her funny or cute someway. Ultimately though this didn't matter to him, he wasn't interested in her to begin with and then she even became a murderer. It's not like he couldn't feel any pity towards her when she died. And he didn't want her to die, though he had a reasonable guess she could attempt suicide (and he went at length to prevent that). Objectively though she was less than worthless, she was harmful. She killed a person out of jealousy, and it was not even guaranteed she would have stopped there.

(And Mikoko at least did it for herself. Atemiya did it for the sake of others (shifting responsibilities), so he went down hard on her)

I repeat, Ii-chan bore no ill will toward Mikoko. He didn't hate her. He wasn't even trying to punish her, he just wanted her to take responsibility. He didn't even manipulate her to commit suicide, so it's not his fault she died. He took every step to assure Mikoko wouldn't commit suicide. In the end he still feels a bit guilty, but precisely because he did all he could for her he doesn't blame himself much. Things just went that way.

Spoiler for more interpretations:

I agree with that. I don't think Ii-chan ever harbored any ill will towards Mikoko the entire time. I would even argue that it's against his nature to act out of spite toward someone he barely knows.

However, his strong aversion towards murder still stands. Without any intention of manipulating anyone, he simply made his stance on the subject quite clear. He wanted to break down all the pretensions and excuses people make to justify killing other people, and expose the deplorable act for what it truly was. In tearing apart these fragile defenses, he was pretty much forcing his values onto them.

Of course, like you said, he never intended to instigate a suicide,and he probably even took some precautions to prevent it. But then, I don't think he felt any real attachment towards Mikoko to begin with, so the effect was minimal when these precautions failed.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

I can't comment until I have read that part, but as I said, he is a psychopath.

Spoiler:

As written in Nekosogi Radical part 3, the Zerozakis don't feel anything. I think that's the similarity with Ii-chan, though Ii-chan just numbed himself out because too many people were dying near him, Hitoshiki is just born that way.

Spoiler for future volumes:

That is the thing, he technically is not a Zerosaki. As Emoto pointed out, Human Failure does not have the natural desire to kill other human beings that rest of the Zerozakis posses. In other words, all the Zerosaki attributes Hitoshiki has were learned behaviors, and the very thing that has been killing him. (exercising power as a Zerosaki without mentally being one has been overloading his own body to the point of killing him).

Also, it is also wrong to say Zerozakis don't feel anything. They still have emotions, like the entire clan has a strong bond with one another (especially Mind Render), or how Belt Keep had his crush on Overkilled Red. Just their desire for murder overshadow rest of their personality.

[Tyabann]

Spoiler for interpretation of Ikkun:

Didn't he indirectly cause Muimi to kill... the other guy, I don't remember his name. Aikawa accused him of setting that whole situation up, and he just countered with "I couldn't do that, I don't understand people", something I feel the whole book shows to be a complete and utter lie.

[Qilin]

^ The fact that so many interpretations of a single character can coexist makes me glad I read this book.

Spoiler for :

In grand scheme of all things, Akiharu-kun was the true victim. I'd say that that incident betrayed just how little regard Ii-chan had for human lives. He set it up so that if Akiharu was to die, it would undoubtedly point to Muimi.

[shmaster]

Spoiler for Ii-chan:

I believe there was no "set up". I feel he really didn't care on how the girls is going to react to his words. He just watch other human beings dances by his words, and then response to it as he sees fit. A really deranged form of a "whatever" attitude.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Spoiler for Ii-chan:

I believe there was no "set up". I feel he really didn't care on how the girls is going to react to his words. He just watch other human beings dances by his words, and then response to it as he sees fit. A really deranged form of a "whatever" attitude.

Spoiler for :

I'm pretty sure he had something in mind when he purposefully divulged the "x over y" thing as a dying message to Muimi. It was stated to serve as a form of insurance in case the murders continued after Mikoko died.

[orangejuicetang]

Does anybody know what happened to the website that was slowly translating Zaregoto volume 3?

[Cruor]

As far as Ii-chan's psychology I think he might've been intending for a bit more then we think simply because of how quickly he switched gears to eating the evidence and terrorizing Atemiya. But yeah, staying cool in those kinda of situations could easily be the kind of stuff he picked up from his past.

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Does anybody know what happened to the website that was slowly translating Zaregoto volume 3?

The translator said he was going to remake it (or rather something about how he would actually get back to work) in August. And then at the end of August, well, that happened. So yeah, I can only assume he's either finishing it and wanted to put it in a different format or he gave up but was being sly about it. Considering he said he was going to update it in August I'm leaning on the former hopefully.

Also I believe a second project started up for the novel.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Cruor

Also I believe a second project started up for the novel.

Tell me more

[Cruor]

Not sure if I'm allowed to link to it? Well, I've seen threads link to BT and Del Ray kinda went under so maybe?

Here.

[Izayoi]

Originally Posted by larethian

this is actually the funniest comment I've ever heard in months (even if it's an old one). wwwwwwwwww

In my defense, I didn't specify how many people were translating. However, after some experience in translating I realized the time of the process is quite disproportional to the time it takes to consume the translated material. So I was naive, and I admit it now but "wwwwwwww" was definitely unnecessary! sad face :V

[orangejuicetang]

Spoiler for volume 3, act 5:

Now is the time to split. This is not my selfishness or my cowardice -- this is my strategy. Alright, Shiogi-chan. If the strategist you is going to treat Tamamo-chan like that -- then I'll throw away my role as the user of nonsense.

From now on, it's not about going behind each other's backs.

It's a fight to the death.

I'll kill you, slice you to bits, line you all up, trim you down to size, and set you out for all the world to see.

Oh my, ii-chan.

[Sol Falling]

Picked up the third novel translation by the second translator group...just one chapter (the epilogue) remaining, so I gave into temptation. Was freakin' awesome, and I feel at this point as if we've started to really have a good idea of what Ii-kun's character is. Not only that, but unexpectedly this volume still threw in the (perhaps somewhat meaninglessly) obligatory murder mystery as well. It was pretty satisfying to guess the culprit correctly, I guess that Nishio might have set that up. The climax/reveal was, as always, non-stop awesome.

Reading through some of the more light-hearted sections, there were times where Ii-kun's personality really felt like Araragi, lol. And I guess a lot of the more philosophical stuff about things like strength and relativity reminded me strongly of themes brought up again in Medaka Box. These are pretty fascinating catches, and although I guess Nishio could possibly be criticized for reusing so many character types or themes in his own works, I'm grateful because I really feel like getting access to Zaregoto also helps me gain insight Nishio's other series.

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Picked up the third novel translation by the second translator group...just one chapter (the epilogue) remaining, so I gave into temptation. Was freakin' awesome, and I feel at this point as if we've started to really have a good idea of what Ii-kun's character is. Not only that, but unexpectedly this volume still threw in the (perhaps somewhat meaninglessly) obligatory murder mystery as well. It was pretty satisfying to guess the culprit correctly, I guess that Nishio might have set that up. The climax/reveal was, as always, non-stop awesome.

Did you figure out the closed room trick (the answer is in the epilogue)?

Spoiler for spoiler:

How did Hime-chan get out with the room locked from the outside?

The solution is pretty simple now that I've read ... quite a few closed room cases, but when I first started reading mysteries I thought it's brilliant (partly because he managed to distract me from even focusing on the trick until the very end). The epilogue is actually the most fun of every single arc imo.

This will probably be surprising to you but Shiogi is actually Nishio's favorite character for this series! During 2007's popularity, she poll ranked 8th out of 100 or so Nishio characters. You won't find out all her story unless you read Ningen series too. She appears for so little in this volume but ...

Spoiler for spoiler:

I do wish she lived in retrospect because Nishio kept writing more about her and how awesome she is (not to mention she has by far the coolest title) ... NISHIO YOU MONSTER.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

Did you figure out the closed room trick (the answer is in the epilogue)?

Spoiler for spoiler:

How did Hime-chan get out with the room locked from the outside?

The solution is pretty simple now that I've read ... quite a few closed room cases, but when I first started reading mysteries I thought it's brilliant (partly because he managed to distract me from even focusing on the trick until the very end). The epilogue is actually the most fun of every single arc imo.

Haha, no, I didn't think too much about the trick either, although now that you've suggested it I may give it a try. I haven't read too many murder mysteries myself but I guess the point you mention about distraction is pretty relevant because with regards to the culprit part I felt like Nishio deliberately brought it up and revealed quite a few clues early on which is I went and made a guess. In terms of logically deducing the escape/murder method itself I've got pretty little experience or skills.

Spoiler for couple guesses:

Since it's Hime-chan the two immediate ideas to think of are rappelling down the window like she did with Iichan later, or going through the vent like she said she did when she left. The questions in my mind are whether it's possible to close the window or vent again using just string. Aside from that...hmm, maybe taking the Dean's hand with her and just walking out the door and locking it; question would be if it's possible to hide it/put it back without Aizawa-san noticing (seems unlikely). lol, this seems to be the limit of all I can think of for now, when the answer comes out I suppose I'll see.

This will probably be surprising to you but Shiogi is actually Nishio's favorite character for this series! During 2007's popularity, she poll ranked 8th out of 100 or so Nishio characters. You won't find out all her story unless you read Ningen series too. She appears for so little in this volume but ...

Spoiler for spoiler:

I do wish she lived in retrospect because Nishio kept writing more about her and how awesome she is (not to mention she has by far the coolest title) ... NISHIO YOU MONSTER.

Haha, so Shiogi is Nishio's favourite. That poll rank is pretty impressive/interesting; so aside from Ningen series, does she show up again in Zaregoto's main books at all?

Spoiler:

lol yes, I did find her very amusing and Nishio was doing a quite a good job of making me like/warm up to her just before she...died (lol).

Hmm, so I wonder if Shiogi is the only "strategist" character in the series, or if her entire family is. If she is the only strategist character, that could be an interesting reason for understanding why she's Nishio's favourite, particularly considering the way her concept contrasted with Ii-kun, the "scammer" main character.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Reading through some of the more light-hearted sections, there were times where Ii-kun's personality really felt like Araragi, lol.

Yeah, and Hime-chan is a bit like Hachikuji.