2012-10-29, 06:13 | Link #1381 | |||||||||||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Damn it, I've only now realised I've been spelling it Sybil, but it's spelt Sibyl (or SIBYL to be extra cool). Pack it up guys, all arguments for Sibyl are now invalid .
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I know it's a cold attitude, but again, that's not what I want to live in, but this is how I see hard choices would be made. Quote:
It doesn't seem like Sibyl knows things like the factory environment (in terms of actual personalities within), or the history surrounding it. If it turns out Sibyl is somehow self-aware, able to account for asshole/non-asshole personality traits, or able to determine potential scapegoats, then a lot of my arguments will probably become invalid, I fear . Quote:
Still, a single machine making life-impacting recommendations versus a bit of biased individuals making life-impacting recommendations, obviously the latter increases your chances of survival in the real world, but that's exploiting loop-holes in the human network system. Quote:
Instead of hiding away unstability, the system is promotes maintaining healthy mental state for everyone. The only arguments here are the latent criminals issue, that people should be given the right to remain unstable (and/or get worst) or the possibility of mind controlling agents. Quote:
The point was that weapons were designed to be weapons, so it's purpose as a 'good' thing is twisting it's original intent. Sibyl...well, at this point in time, I believe was created to help aid people, not created as a weapon. The closet analogy I can come up with is the internet itself. The original intent twisted by the people making issues like cyber-bullying, digital piracy ("You wouldn't download a car!"...er, what?), etc. Has the internet been censored, yet? Well, it is only now starting to. Quote:
Anyway, I'm pretty sure employing latent criminals undermines the practicing good personal judgement. But again, that's not Sibyl recommending 'please fight fire with fire', that's people going 'hey, let's risk the lives of "dogs" instead'. Quote:
Akane: "I-I did receive training on it, more or less..." Supercomputer did not allocate the job to Akane on the spot. She chose her profession and got training prior to her first official shift. I'm speculating the training was done with people, so they could still reject her if she wasn't meeting their expectations (and if I'm wrong, you'll get a cookie). But of course, Sibyl's judgement hasn't been proven wrong just yet: Friend A: "The best I could do was C-rank scores across the board." Friend B: "What's the problem? You're good at blue-collar work." Quote:
As for Psycho-Pass's world, they probably did it because they saw an opportunity to make the world a better place. Technically, we don't know if the world really is worst or not. We're watching it from the police's side so we're purposely shoved into the dark side of society, but: Ep 2: Was meant to be a quiet night. Ep 3: "Back in the days when we didn't have cymatic scans, these sorts of incidents weren't that uncommon". So, it sounds like crime has decreased. Quote:
An argument could be made that the bigger picture is that the officer could have been allocated to solving a more serious crime elsewhere. Quote:
The ones who completely have complete faith in the system takes its follows its exact words as it speaks. But again, that's the individual's, or the entire social culture, idea to take it as "the word of god" and follow it immediately. Quote:
As for the manual override, what was the answer to why the hacker didn't get "enforced" lethally despite a higher reading than ep 1's guy? It was higher, right? Maybe there is a manual override, and Shinya's listening to Akane's words in ep 1/2 (justice over duty)? Or was it because the hacker actually had no killing intent himself (ie. he needed the robots to kill on his behalf), so Sibyl saw no lethal threat from him? |
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2012-10-29, 06:33 | Link #1382 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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2012-10-29, 07:15 | Link #1383 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Thus it merely a tool... I just disagree with the statement that it is all Sibyl fault... Quote:
Talk about threat... I've watched episode 1 again and find that CC is different than threat measurement... Which can explain or clouded our understanding about dominator mode change... |
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2012-10-29, 08:56 | Link #1384 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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But i disagree that it isn't SIBYL that force people to use it.It's first implementation...maybe, but systems like this are self perpetuating. SIBYL is already the Law and CULTURE of their society how could normal everyday person not use it? It's very presence is forced on the individual from when they are very young. maybe even from babyhood ( although age 5 is the only definite age we've gotten so far). This is not just any gauge, speedometer, hammer or any regular tool for that matter. It's very presence forces predisposes people to trust it, why not it's what they grew up to. and well it does some good too. i suppose. well further info is needed for more in depth analysis of SIBYL,we just don't know enough about it at this point. ( and wow we were using a wrong spelling all this time? ahehe) |
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2012-10-29, 11:05 | Link #1385 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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must talk about the gun, did not expect it to be so destructive towards machines
Kougami seems to have his own plan, most likely related to the opening scenes in eps 1, he obviously does not like sibyl so far so good for this show
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2012-10-29, 11:36 | Link #1386 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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People are complicated. No psychiatrist, and especially no machine, can be perfectly sure of giving a correct diagnosis. Speeding in a car is much more clear-cut. And in any case, everyone has what could be classified as "criminal tendencies," to one extent or another.
It's when we think we are totally clean that we present the most danger, since we can go ahead and do what we like to others in the full confidence that what we are doing is right. That's how that supervisor felt. That's how the Nazis felt when they classified parts of society as undesirable. As Jung said, unless we each recognize that we have a "shadow" of negative impulses, that shadow will have the power to unconsciously take us over. And, of course, one of the things a truly responsible and efficient government would do is ban anime and lock up anime fans as potential criminals.
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2012-10-29, 16:01 | Link #1389 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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But really, they don't look that concerned with resources, or they'd straight up kill most potential criminals instead of trying to rehabilitate them. What's expensive about the death penalty is the trials. A full on dystopia doesn't have to worry about that. One good look with a Dominator and pull the trigger. Preferably somewhere that's easy to wash. Quote:
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2012-10-29, 17:57 | Link #1390 | |||||
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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2012-10-30, 01:54 | Link #1391 | ||||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
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As for having the gun in paralyzer mode first, that doesn't seem to be the case, since the opening scene of ep 1 showed Shinya killing the helmet wearing guy (which I'm think is some anti-brain scanning helmet) on the first shot. Quote:
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I'm aware Sibyl assigns some job aptitude ranking to everyone, but one of the friend mentions Akane was "an honor student who scored 700 points on the last exam.". Is this an old school style exam, or the actual value that Sibyl assigned? I'm under the impression it's the former for some reason, and is different to the Sibyl aptitude rank. Akane also says her "job aptitude exceeded the Bureau's employment standards", so is it the factory's standards set too low that let him slip through the cracks? |
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2012-10-30, 02:43 | Link #1393 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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I also like to point out that Akane getting so many A ranks was not due to a lucky break by SIBYL, but due to her actually being that good.
I'd ALSO like to point out that she still just went for the job that didn't have any A rank competitors, so in her own eyes, she didn't really have that much of a choice. Also, but this is just an assumption, I believe she still had to go to the academy before actually getting the job itself. |
2012-10-30, 02:58 | Link #1394 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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This line can be interpreted as CC and Target's Threat are 2 different measurement with lethal mode active only after the Target's Threat pass certain limit. The guy in the beginning of episode 1 probably has high Target's Threat thus activating the Lethal Eliminator mode from start... Still not sure, but at least this what I got from 3 episode... |
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2012-10-30, 05:12 | Link #1395 | ||||||||||||
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Pretty big difference in penalty there, and the Dominator decides it automatically. Yes, whether or not the gun is shot is decided by the person holding the gun (should the gun even allow itself to be shot, anyway), but like TRL wrote, I don't see much evidence of a manual override for the gun's current setting. If the gun sets itself for lethal shot, there seems to be no option between "Shooting to kill" and "Don't shoot at all". Quote:
Job interviews definitely have their limitations, but I'm inclined to think it's better to have them than to hire people based purely on resume, or purely on some grade/recommendation assigned by a supercomputer. At least with a job interview, both the employer and the (prospective) employee get to meet each other before anything is finalized. A job interview isn't just for the benefit of employers, it's also for the benefit of the person looking for work. The job interview may well reveal something about your potential employer that didn't show up in the job posting or job ad, and that revelation might be a deal-breaker for you. Heck, just look at this factory in Episode 3. "Must live on-site" combined with "No internet use on-site" would likely be a complete and utter deal-breaker for a lot of prospective employees. I wonder how many people ended up employed at this factory without ever knowing the real downside of what they were getting into... Quote:
Recall how the criminal from the 1st episode felt that his reputation had been ruined simply from getting a bad reading. So whatever "therapy" entails in this world, it doesn't seem to be something you can enter into discreetly in this world (unlike seeing a mental health professional in the real world, which often can be done discreetly). If the criminal in the first episode felt he could undergo this therapy without it destroying his reputation, maybe he would have done so. But alas, this option does not appear to be there. Quote:
Not all weapons are equally problematic, that's all I'm saying. Quote:
What I mean by that is that I can definitely see how "the 1%" would love Sibyl: It minimizes the chances of getting problematic employees, it is likely good for productivity, it keeps the masses under very tight control. It was probably "sold" to the masses as a better way to fight crime, and also as a means to make people "happier" by finding psychological problems and correcting them. But what it's actually done to Joe and Jane Average is take an awful lot of choice and self-empowerment away from them, leaving them with very little flexibility within the system itself. That's the impression I'm getting so far, anyway. Quote:
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We could be seeing Al Capones be brought to justice. Instead, we're seeing rape and bully victims be brought to justice... Maybe Episode 4 will change that. But if we keep getting more of the same, that's rather suggestive of where the author is going with this story, imo... Quote:
I will also admit that the fact that I live in a very rural area does impact my thinking. For example, Dengar arguing that humans don't have empathy is just utterly absurd to me, just based on what I see within my community on a regular basis (ex. if a member of the community has a serious disease, there is inevitably a fundraiser for that individual). Perhaps in a more urban area people don't care about one another as much, but that's definitely not the case in small towns, at least in my experience. Quote:
In any event, nothing that you wrote contradicts what I was saying about Sibyl being more important than what you're making it out to be.
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2012-10-30, 09:05 | Link #1396 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Regards the vic in Ep 1, note that initially she was supposed to be taken down with the non-lethal Paralyzer mode. Note that in real life, SWAT and police officers would restrain the hostage once the perp is taken down - this is the same principle here, merely on a more violent scale.
Secondly, she's upgraded to lethal status when she's sitting in that pool of what I assume is either petrol or kerosene, holding a lit lighter. She was quite willing to drop that lighter and blow everyone to kingdom come, and would have done that had Akane not talked her down. Third, as the close of ep 3 indicates, she's undergoing counseling and is on the way to making a full recovery. So while I have serious concerns with the Sibyl system (seriously, nobody capable of making judgement calls or handling stress because it's all outsourced to some cyberpunk computer-AI-system? I can see where Masaoka is coming from there), it's not as if this is Saudi Arabia or the Middle East, where rape victims are instead jailed and punished for the crime of premarital sex. Though obviously when you surrender everything to the system... then you're going to get problems if the system is tampered with or sabotaged. This is cyberpunk: It's a genre convention that if something is supposedly tamper-proof, someone will either figure out a way to hack it or sabotage it, or it'll go rampant and sabotage itself. Also, that factory had the best cyber security ever that I've seen
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2012-10-30, 09:50 | Link #1397 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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but anyway the apparently security is not good enough. it seems it was too easy to tamper with the systems/robots of that place. Best security would have checks and balances, redundancy, and fail safes in abundance. I hardly believe something similar could happen in one of Google's main servers for example. ( as in resulting in murder and stuff, without it being found out almost immediately) but i guess you're just joking. |
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2012-10-30, 09:52 | Link #1398 | |||
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That's a pretty big difference, if you ask me. Quote:
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Quite the contrary, they're natural outcomes of the system. This system really does create many of its own problems.
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2012-10-30, 10:02 | Link #1399 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Also, while the paralyzer might cause her to faint, but as long as the lighter still in her hand then the POOL gasoline still might explode and KILL Kogami... However once the lighter gone, her threat level decrease and Paralyzer mode activated. On different note Quote:
That when the enforcer is pull the trigger, it is because Sibyl left the enforcer with only Pull or Not, thus nullifying the enforcer responsibility on the choice the enforcer choose... What you describe as how human rely too much on Sibyl is something I agree on, but to say that human shot because he doesn't have choice to say otherwise? Then no. It pretty much saying terrorist is forgivable because it is his religion fault... |
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2012-10-30, 10:47 | Link #1400 | |||||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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tl;dr, your security is only as strong as its weakest link, which is the day-to-day user. Quote:
Of course patrol officers and SWAT are going to restrain the hostage with zip cuffs, and they'll try and do it as gently as possible - but it is not outside the realms of possibility that they may tase the hostage if the hostage is behaving too irrationally to safely subdue and restrain - though of course this is the real world, with no Crime Coefficients to justify getting shot with the Paralyzer mode, which is why cops will do their best to avoid getting into a situation like that. Quote:
Again, as MarkS00N noted, the vic's threat assessment is upgraded after she flicks the lighter on, and is prepared to drop it into that pool of gas and blow everyone to kingdom come. She has gone from being freaked out to a display of active aggression - she's now holding an improvised firebomb as a threat against the Enforcers. As far as Sibyl is concerned, the threat rating has gone up and she needs to be taken down permanently. Again, note that as soon as she puts the lighter down, her threat rating drops. Quote:
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That said, at least on the threat assessment when the energy blasts start flying, the system at least appears to be able to judge threat levels.
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action, psychological, science fiction, thriller |
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