[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

the only logical explanation is... the informations were disclosed (a version of them at least) but Ryukishi doesn't tell us.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Spoiler for up to ep4 ch9, quantumtimelines, some more wellfare:

I reckon even if she waits 2 more years she can still go back to the very same metaworld where she is now. I believe it hardly makes any difference she goes there from the world of 2000 or from the world of 1998 (other than the "the older you are less you can use magic" stuff discussed in whichever episode).

Not to mention keeping it in mind how the timeline itself in the metaworld is seriously messed up (or I'm bloody stupid at failing to understand it). Remember the scene where the stake Greed (sorry forgot demon name) is able to predict that she is gonna be employed by Ange later, but she is now Beato's furniture.
How does she know what's going to happen and who her later owners going to be? Or that means that Ange actually timetravelled to 1986's metaworld or something? Even if I presume that Greed is going to kill someone in ep4 and stay there as an Evidence again, I can't be sure she is going to get into the possesion of ep4's Ange and go trough the very same events, which will lead us back to here. Doesn't that implies that Greed is able to follow all the events of other Kakera's? Or maybe regardless whatever happens she is going to be summoned by Ange in every world. (I'm not even close to a beginner in grasping the knowledge of quantumdimension theories, but my brain seriously hurts whenever I try to understand the logic behind that scene).
EDIT: One more thing, if we conclude that we followed ep3's happenings which led us to the Background of episode 4's Ange, than how did she summoned the 2 dead stake nee-chans who died in the scene by her parents? They weren't used as a catalysator to summon the siesta sisters, and ultimately died because of that? (Ah my brain!!!)

The only semi-logical explanation I can come up on the question "why does she wants to travel earlier to the Metaworld" is that she doesn't want to be "older" than her brother, but that's not really a clever reason itself (or maybe Frederika can only send her now I don't know, but then again where was she in the last 12 year?). At the present time it seems like to me that the world of 1998 doesn't hold too much relevance on the actual main plot, but then it makes even less sense to implement all them new characters.

And no I don't even want to remember that scene with Rosa-Maria-Wellfare Officer woman. That was the most ridiculous scene in the whole story, my blood was boiling in frustration how none of them acted anything.
Well fair enough, it's indeed a very good example to show us, that there is not much justice in Umineko's children's policy/teenager wellfare. If I take into account that, it indeed seems unlikely, how Ange could possibly lobby out some more advantageous position regarding her own Guardian.

Well,
Real world Ange lives in the world of EP3
Meta Ange takes part in EP4 meta-world, as a 'watcher' of the game.
Mamon 'knowing about the future' is most likely refering to EP3 outcome, or she thinks that EP4 will have a similar 'future' to EP3

It will be a spoiler, but this thread is for this, anyway.

Spoiler:

Eva does not survive to EP4, most probably the Ange of EP4 does have a completely different future, maybe not even involved with magic. So there's no way the future for Ange will be th same.

I don't know why you're assuming what Mamon says is 100% right and will come true.
But, who knows? We don't know about Ange's future for EP4 (and EP1 and EP2...)

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Yes, that's what I also thought. I also think it's strange that Ange was able to get a hold of one of the stakes. Maybe she just believes that she has one (it's an delusion of her). Still....
But what out the other stuff she got like the diary of Maria....wouldn't the police show a bit of interest in that. It would have said a lot abut the relationships inside the family.
I mean it was a mass murder which isn't solved yet any information would be important and let a girl steal this information is a little bit strange.

警察は遺留品捜索の際、大量のガラクタを収集。@
それらは律儀にも捜査終了後、右代宮家に返却された。@
……その中に、真里亞の日記に記されていた挿絵で見たことのあるものを見つけ、持ち帰ったのだ


Here it says that after the police investigated the stuff they got from the island, they returned it to the family and ange found the stake in the middle of the junk. What's the problem? If the police can't find anything with these after many years, they return it.

[Kitsu]

Thanks for reminding me. Must have forgot that line~ Explains a lot.

[izmosmolnar]

Well I still hardly imagine the police (unless something is vastly different between the Japanese 察 and the European Police deps I'm familiar with), would give back murder weapons, especially in such a famous, notorious murder like Rokkenjima supposed to be . Fair enough if we base it on the events of ep3, the autopsy might reveal that the actual killing blow weren't caused by them stakes, but still. They found them inside the wounds of the corpses, right? I don't know the procedures in Asia, but here in Europe that would make them as an evidence (even if the death was caused by something else), and they'd have to store them away properly, not giving away to the family of the dead as a "junk" once it's over. To obtain one of those, I can only imagine bribing someone with sh*tloads of money, but as I said, I haven't got a clue how corruption-resistant they could be on the Far East.

The other thing you guys were discussing, and that's possibly the only major thing bugging me. Ryukishi himself mentioned it somewhere (I seem to remember I've read it in one of these threads here), how he told his own scripters the whole mistery behind the story more than once, but they forget it time to time. That makes me believe that (unless he is employing semi-retarded people), the whole solution must be some kinda comlicated, not interconnected, probably scenario-wise different answer. I mean if the solution would be a short, sensible answer (like a "the 19th people did it" or "Kinzo did it" etc), people with normal intelligence wouldn't really forget it often then, right?
I don't even try really hard to solve all the misteries plus connect all them together anymore, since the probability I'm going to guess it correctly could only be very-very low (provided that he was telling the truth in first place). I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride, and hoping he is not going to put too much contradiction in (depends on one's viewpoint of course).

[theacefrehley]

If the stakes were not the weapons of the crime, and they had a lot of time (months, years) to examine it and found nothing, I don't see why not to return it.

And,
They are 'stylish', so the police could think it was a memento of the family, or a family treasure, and just returned.
Maybe Kinzo's weirdness for that kind of stuff was famous.
It could become money for the family

But, anyway, I'm not a cop, so I can't say for sure.

And also:
この日記帳は、彼女の遺品の中から見つけて私が密かに持ち帰ったもの。

Here it says she took the diary from Maria's stuff in secret
Maybe the stake was the same

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

The other thing you guys were discussing, and that's possibly the only major thing bugging me. Ryukishi himself mentioned it somewhere (I seem to remember I've read it in one of these threads here), how he told his own scripters the whole mistery behind the story more than once, but they forget it time to time. That makes me believe that (unless he is employing semi-retarded people), the whole solution must be some kinda comlicated, not interconnected, probably scenario-wise different answer. I mean if the solution would be a short, sensible answer (like a "the 19th people did it" or "Kinzo did it" etc), people with normal intelligence wouldn't really forget it often then, right?
I don't even try really hard to solve all the misteries plus connect all them together anymore, since the probability I'm going to guess it correctly could only be very-very low (provided that he was telling the truth in first place). I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride, and hoping he is not going to put too much contradiction in (depends on one's viewpoint of course).

Well,
Maybe it's a cliche but, my guess is that there are many potential killers (each one of kinzo's children, for example) there, and each episode, some random event causes one of them to act, making use of the legend of the Witch. Like rule X for higurashi.
And maybe the mastermind is the one causing the triggers (rule Y), with rule Z covering everything up, putting haze on it.
Maybe that's the causeof the complication

In some thread for umineko I translated some booklets where Bernkastel babbles about it. I think it's worth a look.

[Kitsu]

Yup~, read that one. Thanks for translation by the way.
Bernkastel says that she herself isn't able to find those famous rules because everytime the gameboard changes when she thinks she got one. And she says it metaphorical: "The labyrinth changes everytime" You mean that one, right?
Well, I think the trigger after all is the Maria gets a friggin letter from "Beatrice" which causes a lot of uproar between the siblings. Till now she always got one right?

[Jan-Poo]

also, unless ep4 is different, Maria always cries about the rose in the garden.

[Kitsu]

Which is necessary because otherwise she won't be alone and can't get the letter. So the rose thing is necessary for our trigger to happen.
So the culprit is the one who "stole" the rose xD

[Jan-Poo]

there could actually be many ways for the culprit to get near Maria and give her the letter ^^;

I don't really know why is that rose so important, but it looks like it is somehow one of the key of the mistery.

[Kitsu]

Well, Maria was really attached to Battler and was always together with the cousins or at least with Rosa. Also the cousins only left Maria alone because they thought Rosa was with her. I don't think the culprit could easily get a hold of Maria alone if the rose thing didn't happen.

[Jan-Poo]

I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Spoiler for up to ep4 ch9, quantumtimelines, some more wellfare:

I reckon even if she waits 2 more years she can still go back to the very same metaworld where she is now. I believe it hardly makes any difference she goes there from the world of 2000 or from the world of 1998 (other than the "the older you are less you can use magic" stuff discussed in whichever episode).

Not to mention keeping it in mind how the timeline itself in the metaworld is seriously messed up (or I'm bloody stupid at failing to understand it). Remember the scene where the stake Greed (sorry forgot demon name) is able to predict that she is gonna be employed by Ange later, but she is now Beato's furniture.
How does she know what's going to happen and who her later owners going to be? Or that means that Ange actually timetravelled to 1986's metaworld or something? Even if I presume that Greed is going to kill someone in ep4 and stay there as an Evidence again, I can't be sure she is going to get into the possesion of ep4's Ange and go trough the very same events, which will lead us back to here. Doesn't that implies that Greed is able to follow all the events of other Kakera's? Or maybe regardless whatever happens she is going to be summoned by Ange in every world. (I'm not even close to a beginner in grasping the knowledge of quantumdimension theories, but my brain seriously hurts whenever I try to understand the logic behind that scene).
EDIT: One more thing, if we conclude that we followed ep3's happenings which led us to the Background of episode 4's Ange, than how did she summoned the 2 dead stake nee-chans who died in the scene by her parents? They weren't used as a catalysator to summon the siesta sisters, and ultimately died because of that? (Ah my brain!!!)

The only semi-logical explanation I can come up on the question "why does she wants to travel earlier to the Metaworld" is that she doesn't want to be "older" than her brother, but that's not really a clever reason itself (or maybe Frederika can only send her now I don't know, but then again where was she in the last 12 year?). At the present time it seems like to me that the world of 1998 doesn't hold too much relevance on the actual main plot, but then it makes even less sense to implement all them new characters.

And no I don't even want to remember that scene with Rosa-Maria-Wellfare Officer woman. That was the most ridiculous scene in the whole story, my blood was boiling in frustration how none of them acted anything.
Well fair enough, it's indeed a very good example to show us, that there is not much justice in Umineko's children's policy/teenager wellfare. If I take into account that, it indeed seems unlikely, how Ange could possibly lobby out some more advantageous position regarding her own Guardian.

Let me give me my 2c.


HEAVY SPOILERS

Spoiler:

Now I think I got your point.
Let me explain some things:

Not to mention keeping it in mind how the timeline itself in the metaworld is seriously messed up (or I'm bloody stupid at failing to understand it). Remember the scene where the stake Greed (sorry forgot demon name) is able to predict that she is gonna be employed by Ange later, but she is now Beato's furniture.
How does she know what's going to happen and who her later owners going to be?

First;

Ange is not travelling back and forth from 1998 and 1986-meta-world
By chapter 18 or 19 you'll get to understand how she ended up in the meta world.
There, Ange dies and that's how she 'travels' to the meta-world.

The scenes of Saint Lucia and her adventures with Amakusa are most certainly 'flashbacks' from when she was 'alive'.

In that scene you mentioned, we have:

Mamon says she's Beatrice's furniture and she can't support Ange.
私、今の主は、ベアトリーチェさまですので、応援は出来ませんが

Ange says Mamon's Beatrice's furniture until 1986, later, they'll be friends.

(You don't need to read it as a predicition of the future necessarily. You can read it as Ange, let's say, hoping or guessing that they'll be friends in EP4's future, like they did in EP3's future. Of course they don't know the 'future' of EP4, as it is still going on)

Then Mamon replies that Ange will abandon her.

(Again. You don't need to read it so literally. Here it's as though Mamon is saying: 'And then, you'll do the same thing you did to me before (Ange x Stakes, Maria, Sakutarou; After the bullying), you good for nothing friend')

「知ってるわ。@１９８６年１０月５日までは、…あなたはベアトリーチェの家具よ。@そしてやがては、私の 友人になるわ。」\

「そしてやがては、その友人を捨てるわけですが。@何しろ、……ッ、………ぐ…、」/


It's like they are talking about the 'future' of EP3 from Ange came from, like speculating they'll, kind of, repeat the future.

I don't really know how it is written in the english patch, but that's how I did understand things here.


EDIT: One more thing, if we conclude that we followed ep3's happenings which led us to the Background of episode 4's Ange, than how did she summoned the 2 dead stake nee-chans who died in the scene by her parents? They weren't used as a catalysator to summon the siesta sisters, and ultimately died because of that? (Ah my brain!!!)

As for the stakes revival;

Keep in mind that this is a magical world.
Things are much more loose here.

When Ange breaks the stakes, Maria says:
「……大丈夫だよ。@とても無残な姿だけど、あれは人間界を強制退去させられて残された、依り代の残滓。@ 抜け殻だよ。@/

She says that what Ange broke were just shells in the human world, that they were fine, safe and they would meet them again someday.
So, dying in the human world doesn't mean ultimate death for them.

Let alone Beatrice's power to revive stuff.

Again, it's magic here

Even if you think it's a contradiction or whatever; this just shows how the magical world is not to be taken so seriously.


The only semi-logical explanation I can come up on the question "why does she wants to travel earlier to the Metaworld" is that she doesn't want to be "older" than her brother, but that's not really a clever reason itself (or maybe Frederika can only send her now I don't know, but then again where was she in the last 12 year?). At the present time it seems like to me that the world of 1998 doesn't hold too much relevance on the actual main plot, but then it makes even less sense to implement all them new characters.

Why does she want to travel?
To encourage Battler and save herself and her family (even if herself and the family are from another kakera). And she doesn't even have any attachment to the world either. Bernkastel showing up to her was just the last push to go on a journey.

And;
How can you say 1998 doesn't have relevance? There you get info from outside the island.
All that info from Nanjo's son, Kumasawa's son and the Witch-Hunt Professor was not of any relevance?

What about the 2 bottle messages?
What about the handwriting of the bottles being the same as that of Maria's diary, and not being Maria's handwriting?
What about the 'plot' in the messages having the same beginning, the same ending and different middle parts?
What about the meaning of the mysterious number at the end of EP3?
What about the reward sent by 'Beatrice' to people outside the island?
What about Kyrie's background? And Sumadera x Ushiromiya?
Sakutaro is also important to show how Maria became EVIL (because of Ange and Rosa.)


How could you insert all that info without the new characters?
They'll probably not show up again, but someone needs to deliver the info

[Kitsu]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.

This is what bothers me the most. Who on Rokkenjima would be capable of teaching those things?
Shannon? well I don't think so, also she was properly busy with work.
Kyrie? Well, seemingly no besides she would be busy with doing other things.
Rosa? Before she would do that she would have shot herself in the head a dozen times.
Eva? No way in freaking hell.
Natsuhi? Eh no?
Kumasawa? Hm, it's possible since maybe she know a few things but she would be more likely the Virgillia that appeared
Jessica? Well I don't know...but more likely then Rosa and the other adults, but she doesn't seem to have the knowledge.

[Jan-Poo]

Kumasawa is a good option. Then it could have been Kinzo himself, but very unlikely. There is also a chance that a "third Beatrice" exists or existed on Rokkenjima. The "exists" part however requires some wacky theory to make it work after knowing some of the red truths that are revealed on ep4...

[Kitsu]

Wait, why am I so against Rosa. The teachings of Beatrice were before

Spoiler for "Ep 4:

the great "I'm HULK! Ehm ROSA!! RAGE!" rip apart of poor Sakutaro and such

Maybe she did all those stuff with her daughter. Or she just has a personality disorder caused by the death of real Beato.

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Let me give me my 2c.


HEAVY SPOILERS

Spoiler:

Now I think I got your point.
Let me explain some things:

Not to mention keeping it in mind how the timeline itself in the metaworld is seriously messed up (or I'm bloody stupid at failing to understand it). Remember the scene where the stake Greed (sorry forgot demon name) is able to predict that she is gonna be employed by Ange later, but she is now Beato's furniture.
How does she know what's going to happen and who her later owners going to be?

First;

Ange is not travelling back and forth from 1998 and 1986-meta-world
By chapter 18 or 19 you'll get to understand how she ended up in the meta world.
There, Ange dies and that's how she 'travels' to the meta-world.

The scenes of Saint Lucia and her adventures with Amakusa are most certainly 'flashbacks' from when she was 'alive'.

In that scene you mentioned, we have:

Mamon says she's Beatrice's furniture and she can't support Ange.
私、今の主は、ベアトリーチェさまですので、応援は出来ませんが

Ange says Mamon's Beatrice's furniture until 1986, later, they'll be friends.

(You don't need to read it as a predicition of the future necessarily. You can read it as Ange, let's say, hoping or guessing that they'll be friends in EP4's future, like they did in EP3's future. Of course they don't know the 'future' of EP4, as it is still going on)

Then Mamon replies that Ange will abandon her.

(Again. You don't need to read it so literally. Here it's as though Mamon is saying: 'And then, you'll do the same thing you did to me before (Ange x Stakes, Maria, Sakutarou; After the bullying), you good for nothing friend')

「知ってるわ。@１９８６年１０月５日までは、…あなたはベアトリーチェの家具よ。@そしてやがては、私の 友人になるわ。」\

「そしてやがては、その友人を捨てるわけですが。@何しろ、……ッ、………ぐ…、」/


It's like they are talking about the 'future' of EP3 from Ange came from, like speculating they'll, kind of, repeat the future.

I don't really know how it is written in the english patch, but that's how I did understand things here.


EDIT: One more thing, if we conclude that we followed ep3's happenings which led us to the Background of episode 4's Ange, than how did she summoned the 2 dead stake nee-chans who died in the scene by her parents? They weren't used as a catalysator to summon the siesta sisters, and ultimately died because of that? (Ah my brain!!!)

As for the stakes revival;

Keep in mind that this is a magical world.
Things are much more loose here.

When Ange breaks the stakes, Maria says:
「……大丈夫だよ。@とても無残な姿だけど、あれは人間界を強制退去させられて残された、依り代の残滓。@ 抜け殻だよ。@/

She says that what Ange broke were just shells in the human world, that they were fine, safe and they would meet them again someday.
So, dying in the human world doesn't mean ultimate death for them.

Let alone Beatrice's power to revive stuff.

Again, it's magic here

Even if you think it's a contradiction or whatever; this just shows how the magical world is not to be taken so seriously.


The only semi-logical explanation I can come up on the question "why does she wants to travel earlier to the Metaworld" is that she doesn't want to be "older" than her brother, but that's not really a clever reason itself (or maybe Frederika can only send her now I don't know, but then again where was she in the last 12 year?). At the present time it seems like to me that the world of 1998 doesn't hold too much relevance on the actual main plot, but then it makes even less sense to implement all them new characters.

Why does she want to travel?
To encourage Battler and save herself and her family (even if herself and the family are from another kakera). And she doesn't even have any attachment to the world either. Bernkastel showing up to her was just the last push to go on a journey.

And;
How can you say 1998 doesn't have relevance? There you get info from outside the island.
All that info from Nanjo's son, Kumasawa's son and the Witch-Hunt Professor was not of any relevance?

What about the 2 bottle messages?
What about the handwriting of the bottles being the same as that of Maria's diary, and not being Maria's handwriting?
What about the 'plot' in the messages having the same beginning, the same ending and different middle parts?
What about the meaning of the mysterious number at the end of EP3?
What about the reward sent by 'Beatrice' to people outside the island?
What about Kyrie's background? And Sumadera x Ushiromiya?
Sakutaro is also important to show how Maria became EVIL (because of Ange and Rosa.)


How could you insert all that info without the new characters?
They'll probably not show up again, but someone needs to deliver the info

Maybe I didn't put too much emphasis on the

up to ep4 ch9

Spoiler for Well you certainly wrote a nice detailed answer! WARNING SPOILERS UP TO EP4 END:

First of all, I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way, I'm not trying to reject everyones theories, solutions, but I personally believe the stuff I discussed/discussing now are major-minor contradictions. I have no intention of making anyone angry/uncomfortable, so I apologize in advance in case if that happens.

I've tried to avoid all the spoilers detailing the events happening after chapter 9 so far, so you surprised me now, that Ange gets there by "dying".
Doesn't that contradict with the scene where 34 told her something like "even if you go back, you will go back to 1998, and Battler goes back to the 6 year old Ange"?
I mean if Meta-Ange is dead in her own timeline, how 34 expects her to go back? o.O Fair enough she tries to bribe her to stay there, but then why don't she just say something like "If you go back you gonna be dead for sure! Why not stay alive here?". Well probably gonna see it for myself once those great guys from Witch Hunt (not irony!) finishes the remaining parts of ep4.
I assumed until now that Frederika gave her the power to go to the Metaworld or something, as she has already proven that she can do similar "timetravel-like" magic in Hirugashi (and the first scene they went back was the docks not directly the metaworld).
Or the other possibility I've thought is, she gained it through her "Beatrice" titled granted magic.

As you pointed out too, the scene with Greed/Mammon, I've indeed interpreted in such a way that both of them takes it for granted to be happen. It maybe true they are just talking about the possibility and "hoping" that Ep4s Ange might go trough the very same events. I remember it in such a way, like Mammon could predict the future, and that's kinda unexplainable (not to mention causes me heavy migraine to explain it such a way).

EDIT: Extra mumbo-jumbo. Even if what you say is true, I still don't understand how is she familiar with the aftermath events of ep3 (ergo the memories she earned with Ange).
It may be possible in such a way like: 1 second here in Metaworld between two ongoing "boardgames" (let's call it point X), she "timetravels" to ep3 after's ange's background (the scenes we saw) by answering her summons, she plays with them, study with them yada-yada. Ultimately rejects her and her sisters, she cease to exist there, and her conciousness travels back to point X with her memories intact of said events. The timeline of the Metaworld are more or less completely unrelated as far as I can tell to both Boardgames, and both "aftermath of Rokkenjima" worlds, so it can happen like that. However because at the time of point X she is is still in the possession of Beato, that causes a huge contradiction with her statement that no one used them for a while. At least that what she claimed immediately after her her summon,
If I presume point X is after the time when Battler (probably) beaten Beato in the game and the Metaworld is completely abandoned already except such magical creatures like the sisters, than she shouldn't have any recollection with the memories when they were discussing with each other in the Metaworld (just before 34 appears), because point X would happen later than that scene.
Of course it can be explained in such a cheesy way like, when a boardgame finishes every demon, witch and such (including the sisters) gets familiar with the future timeline of the previous boardgame, and following that they can start a new game, but I'm not convinced.
Or one can believe that the Stake nee-chans are indeed pure magical creatures, and their memories are heavily influenced by the thoughts of whoever interracts with them. That's why Ange was kinda implanting of her memories about Greed/Mammon, however I don't buy that either.

---
No sorry I maybe wasn't clear enough. I was talking about how Rudolf and Kyrie killed the 2 stake girls, and Eva-Beatrice used them as a catalyst to summon them Siestas. I'm not talking about the scene where Ange "rejected" their existance in ~1996. However my point is that the Siesta sisters also once ventured to the Metaworld, ergo they have to be real (If I start doubting the Metaworld, than I can start doubting every event there, including red texts)
But of course if I assume that Ange really summoned the 7 sisters in ~1996, two of them should have been dead, as they were used to summon them future lolis.
Of course it's possible to explain that both Eva-Beatrice both Lucifer were just acting (as did a lot of people in ep3), and the 2 girls arent irreversibly dead. Or it's also possible that the real Beato Beatrice was able to revive them anyway using her magic, and there might be several other solution, but I personally believe that maybe just a contradiction.

Now that I know she is going to be dead, obviously I can't expect her to stick around and wait a few years later traveling to the Metaworld .

Well I have no idea what developments the later appearing persons can tell, but I didn't really found out too much useful info from the Witch Hunter guy, other than the "Beatrice" wrote one of the messages in the bottle, and there is a group in '98 which try to explain all the events in a non-magical way. I actually considered him more of an Easter Egg character too.
No the non relevant information I meant is mostly Ange's and Maria's background, which is a lot more than the (enjoyable and needed) mistery solving/causing part. I mean after 3 episodes everyone could have a vague idea that Maria had a horrible childhood. Ok it's needed in order to see how did she become a witch, but still. I actually started fast forwarding quite a lot of her scenes, because I was simply not interested, and I regard a huge chunk of it irrevelant plotwise.

I couldn't really care about Ange either (ok I usually dislike the silent-type archetype), because to be perfectly fair, I would have preferred to see more connection with the mistery, not her struggle with her Aunt and such stuff. The same with school, I mean I can imagine how horrible could be if they are bullying someone (there is probably no school where it doesn't happen), but I don't all that really want to read that 2 hour long.

By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basket or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?
He is a diligent servant anyway. Can you guys imagine it somehow that he goes there to gather roses which he gonna use for decoration of the dessert, then suddenly discovers a bad shaped rose, and he'd just leave it there? As far as I can tell he used to strive to satisfy everyone, it's not unimaginable to presume he picked the rotten one up too, just to throw it in the rubbish later. He might just want everything neat and tidy.

[Kitsu]

By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basked or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?

You watched TahYllis's video "Umineko: First Twilight?" That was so awesome. Well it seems to be logical xD

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

You watched TahYllis's video "Umineko: First Twilight?" That was so awesome. Well it seems to be logical xD

Yeah I watched all them indeed a short while ago. Some of them are really hilarious ("WHERE IS THE DOOR OPENING GIZMO???" and that's how the fourth twilight happened.)

[Kitsu]

Poor Kanon though...he seems too get the role of the victim every time. And we all know the George loves llamas xD
But yeah those are awesome

Spoiler for Ange Episode 4:

Back to the topic:
Well that Ange dies wasn't a surprise for me I was sure she died the time she jumped from that freaking skyscraper and what we see after that is something a other (from another kakera) Ange sees. Well i was close.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Maybe I didn't put too much emphasis on the

Spoiler for Well you certainly wrote a nice detailed answer! WARNING SPOILERS UP TO EP4 END:

First of all, I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way, I'm not trying to reject everyones theories, solutions, but I personally believe the stuff I discussed/discussing now are major-minor contradictions. I have no intention of making anyone angry/uncomfortable, so I apologize in advance in case if that happens.

I've tried to avoid all the spoilers detailing the events happening after chapter 9 so far, so you surprised me now, that Ange gets there by "dying".
Doesn't that contradict with the scene where 34 told her something like "even if you go back, you will go back to 1998, and Battler goes back to the 6 year old Ange"?
I mean if Meta-Ange is dead in her own timeline, how 34 expects her to go back? o.O Fair enough she tries to bribe her to stay there, but then why don't she just say something like "If you go back you gonna be dead for sure! Why not stay alive here?". Well probably gonna see it for myself once those great guys from Witch Hunt (not irony!) finishes the remaining parts of ep4.
I assumed until now that Frederika gave her the power to go to the Metaworld or something, as she has already proven that she can do similar "timetravel-like" magic in Hirugashi (and the first scene they went back was the docks not directly the metaworld).
Or the other possibility I've thought is, she gained it through her "Beatrice" titled granted magic.

As you pointed out too, the scene with Greed/Mammon, I've indeed interpreted in such a way that both of them takes it for granted to be happen. It maybe true they are just talking about the possibility and "hoping" that Ep4s Ange might go trough the very same events. I remember it in such a way, like Mammon could predict the future, and that's kinda unexplainable (not to mention causes me heavy migraine to explain it such a way).

EDIT: Extra mumbo-jumbo. Even if what you say is true, I still don't understand how is she familiar with the aftermath events of ep3 (ergo the memories she earned with Ange).
It may be possible in such a way like: 1 second here in Metaworld between two ongoing "boardgames" (let's call it point X), she "timetravels" to ep3 after's ange's background (the scenes we saw) by answering her summons, she plays with them, study with them yada-yada. Ultimately rejects her and her sisters, she cease to exist there, and her conciousness travels back to point X with her memories intact of said events. The timeline of the Metaworld are more or less completely unrelated as far as I can tell to both Boardgames, and both "aftermath of Rokkenjima" worlds, so it can happen like that. However because at the time of point X she is is still in the possession of Beato, that causes a huge contradiction with her statement that no one used them for a while. At least that what she claimed immediately after her her summon,
If I presume point X is after the time when Battler (probably) beaten Beato in the game and the Metaworld is completely abandoned already except such magical creatures like the sisters, than she shouldn't have any recollection with the memories when they were discussing with each other in the Metaworld (just before 34 appears), because point X would happen later than that scene.
Of course it can be explained in such a cheesy way like, when a boardgame finishes every demon, witch and such (including the sisters) gets familiar with the future timeline of the previous boardgame, and following that they can start a new game, but I'm not convinced.
Or one can believe that the Stake nee-chans are indeed pure magical creatures, and their memories are heavily influenced by the thoughts of whoever interracts with them. That's why Ange was kinda implanting of her memories about Greed/Mammon, however I don't buy that either.

---
No sorry I maybe wasn't clear enough. I was talking about how Rudolf and Kyrie killed the 2 stake girls, and Eva-Beatrice used them as a catalyst to summon them Siestas. I'm not talking about the scene where Ange "rejected" their existance in ~1996. However my point is that the Siesta sisters also once ventured to the Metaworld, ergo they have to be real (If I start doubting the Metaworld, than I can start doubting every event there, including red texts)
But of course if I assume that Ange really summoned the 7 sisters in ~1996, two of them should have been dead, as they were used to summon them future lolis.
Of course it's possible to explain that both Eva-Beatrice both Lucifer were just acting (as did a lot of people in ep3), and the 2 girls arent irreversibly dead. Or it's also possible that the real Beato Beatrice was able to revive them anyway using her magic, and there might be several other solution, but I personally believe that maybe just a contradiction.

Now that I know she is going to be dead, obviously I can't expect her to stick around and wait a few years later traveling to the Metaworld .

Well I have no idea what developments the later appearing persons can tell, but I didn't really found out too much useful info from the Witch Hunter guy, other than the "Beatrice" wrote one of the messages in the bottle, and there is a group in '98 which try to explain all the events in a non-magical way. I actually considered him more of an Easter Egg character too.
No the non relevant information I meant is mostly Ange's and Maria's background, which is a lot more than the (enjoyable and needed) mistery solving/causing part. I mean after 3 episodes everyone could have a vague idea that Maria had a horrible childhood. Ok it's needed in order to see how did she become a witch, but still. I actually started fast forwarding quite a lot of her scenes, because I was simply not interested, and I regard a huge chunk of it irrevelant plotwise.

I couldn't really care about Ange either (ok I usually dislike the silent-type archetype), because to be perfectly fair, I would have preferred to see more connection with the mistery, not her struggle with her Aunt and such stuff. The same with school, I mean I can imagine how horrible could be if they are bullying someone (there is probably no school where it doesn't happen), but I don't all that really want to read that 2 hour long.

By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basket or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?
He is a diligent servant anyway. Can you guys imagine it somehow that he goes there to gather roses which he gonna use for decoration of the dessert, then suddenly discovers a bad shaped rose, and he'd just leave it there? As far as I can tell he used to strive to satisfy everyone, it's not unimaginable to presume he picked the rotten one up too, just to throw it in the rubbish later. He might just want everything neat and tidy.

As for lambda delta: I think what she means is: You are a being of the EP3 timeline/kakera. Even if you save your family, they won't go back to you, but to other 'you', of 1986 of EP4.
Maybe Ange was thinking her 'mind' would fuse with her other self of other kakeras, whatever... And lambda crushed this hope...

If you can copy/paste the part you are in doubt, that'd help, as I could not find anything like what you said.


EDIT: Extra mumbo-jumbo...

Dude, this is not important
You're like trying to find hair in eggs
Just think that EP4 starts after EP3 timeline is over
They watched the human history of EP3 until the year of 3.598 AD, when a meteor destroyed earth. Then EP4 starts
It's like the avatars of the characters are watching movies in the meta world.



As for Rudolf and Kyrie 'killing' the stakes;
I just gave the example
If Ange broke their sshells' and they did not die, maybe it's the same for Kyrie and Rudolf.
And you know what Beatrice's power can do when she played with the siblings in EP2 teaparty, and with Rosa in EP3.