Psycho-Pass - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by garbage

well it's finally confirmed, Masaoka is Ginoza'a Father. Totally called that though, along with some others here.

Also confirmed, something special about Akane's Psycho-pass seems different from Makishima though. While Makishima's PP doesn't seem to increase at all, Akane's does so (but doesn't go red), except that it has remarkable recovery capability. well it's possibly the same except that Makishima has more experience with it.

So true what the MWPSB head said, if Sibyl is perfect they wouldn't have any need for detectives and enforcers. wonder where the story would go from here, what would Akane being another special case like Makishima want to change with the system,or would she want to change anything at all? That's another difference between them it seems , from Masaoka's dialogue Akane's very accepting/tolerant of everything including their current society which is in contrast with Makishima who is against it.

oh i wonder what the Head is planning , seems she knows shogo(?), with both their hair white. would she be Shogo's mom ahahaha, you know symmetry

If Akane is capable of recovering her P-P quickly, does that means that she turns out to be either a experiment, an artificial human or worse, a human (in a litteral way) android ?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Looks like that crazy old dictatorial whore is another sociopathic scum like Shougo....seriously, someone please kill her soon.

[garbage]

@Misaofan probably not, no foreshadowing of that kind anywhere at the moment.can't say the same about shogo & the director though.
---

Now we know what this Psycho-pass world needs... SEN _ NO!

A-K-B-0-0-4-8 !!!!

just what this world needs to shake up the system nyahaha , they'll be having a guerrilla concert on Episode 15......

[ookamigirl]

I think they are relaying on Sibyl system too much.
If someone were to control it, they could control everything.
No system is perfect, which means this one was flaws and blind spots.
Akane was feeling down because of that Makashima thing.
All in all a very interesting episode.

[Mandarake]

Originally Posted by andyjay729

Heh, whether or not making Sybil "the good guys" by default would be good writing, I can't quite see Urobuchi making even a default hero out of a legal system that would permaban his works (and probably stick him in that maximum-security prison ).

Oh I agree with you 100%. I don't think Urobuchi is making any kind of allegory here. My own take at this point is that he's just having fun with some very black humor. Perhaps toward the end of the series he will sort things out. Then again, he may continue to mess with our heads to the very last.

Here's my whole deal. Akane, Kougami, Gino and Masaoka all strike me as reasonably intelligent people. Each in his own way has suffered some serious deprivation to the point of dehumanization at the hands of the Sybil system. And yet all of them continue to stick up for the system and the status quo. To wit:
1. When the director reminds Gino that Sybil was responsible for the prosperity and stability of the great many, Gino, who lost his dad to latent criminality, agrees with her without questioning the cost in freedom and human dignity and agrees that public faith in the system must be protected from certain inconvenient facts. This strongly indicates that what the director said to him about Sybil's benefits to society was true.
2. Masaoka says he came to accept and believe in the system long after it had relegated him to being an enforcer and stripped him of his rights as a detective, husband and father.
3. As they enter the confinement center for latent criminals, Kougami tells Akane, without any trace of irony or bitterness, that once the system is done with him that place was where he was going to end up.
4. Akane personally witnessed a catastrophic failure by the system resulting in the murder of her best friend, and yet her quick recovery after the mind scoop indicates that she still sincerely trusted and accepted Sybil and was determined to continue operating within the system.

So the question that comes to my mind is how such apparently intelligent individuals could endure shocking abuse from the system and accept it without any kind of resentment or discontent. The only plausible explanation I can find is a social compact - they believe it's worth enduring these privations in return for having an orderly and prosperous society under Sybil. These people don't strike me as suckers, so the benefits of Sybil that they perceive must be considerable enough, at least in their minds, to offset what it takes from them.

[Roger Rambo]

I do have to somewhat have to agree with Mandarake's assessment. For what's by this point rather obviously a totalitarian oligarchy, we've been rather setup to hold our sympathies with the agents who are working to maintain order in that society. I somehow don't think this setup is going to be revolved in anything as remotely simple as "Sybill is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!". Especially when the primary antagonist isn't exactly opposed to the Sybil system because he feels it's a human rights violation. Frankly, it seems incredibly implausible, based on how wanton Makishima is about killing civilians and his own associates, that any part of whatever he's planning is being done out of some kind of sense of altruism for the greater good of humanity.

It really does seem like the series is intentionally casting Makishima in as monstrous of a light as possible, while presenting our detective squad as being quite sympathetic. This seems especially prominent after we got introduced to Rina last episode, who kinda demonstrates that opposition to the Sybill system isn't reliant on being a homicidal maniac.

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

If Akane is capable of recovering her P-P quickly, does that means that she turns out to be either a experiment, an artificial human or worse, a human (in a litteral way) android ?

I seriously doubt that. Not with how android components are still pretty obviously machinery when you examine them closely. And the fact that Akane couldn't go to a doctors appointment without her machine status being revealed.

[Mandarake]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I somehow don't think this setup is going to be revolved in anything as remotely simple as "Sybill is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!".

That is brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it that way. After somebody walks up to them and says "hey people, Sybil is BAAAD!" what happens next?

Do they all respond with "Egad! you are correct sir!"

Or some variation of "how could i have been so blind?"

What about "why didn't anybody say anything about this before?"

Please.

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

That is brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it that way. After somebody walks up to them and says "hey people, Sybil is BAAAD!" what happens next?

Do they all respond with "Egad! you are correct sir!"

Or some variation of "how could i have been so blind?"

What about "why didn't anybody say anything about this before?"

Please.

That scene could happen once the world is about to be collapsed perhaps.

[Roger Rambo]

One thing I forgot to mention about Ginoza. Interesting contrast between the doubt he'd previously put upon her professionalism (verbally to her, and apparently in reports to his higher ups), and how after this incident he's rather firmly trying to back herself up on this issue. One could suppose that previously was a matter of trying to enforce a kind of tough discipline on a more newbie member who he projected his own insecurities into (rising Psycho-Pass). Once it's a more conventional police matter about her competence staring down a suspect, he comes off as much more supportive...perhaps it's also because he realized that Akane is more resilient than him after her Psycho-Pass wasn't raised as much by the last incident, despite witnessing it first hand?

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

That scene could happen once the world is about to be collapsed perhaps.

If civilization truly collapses, then the relative badness that Sybil was is probably going to look pretty trivial in comparison to fighting off starving cannibal warbands.

[mangamuscle]

I am beginning to think the psycho-pass is a measurement of general brain healthiness. It can deteriorate for short periods (akin to how a diabetic that eats a cake with a six pack of beer will get his sugar level sky high) but if treated in a medical institution it will get better,but once the brains gets damaged for long periods of time, it will never return to normal.
So maybe Makishima (and Akane) are the results of genetic experiments "Hey, we need citizens whose hue never gets cloudy, that will wipe from the face of earth all criminal offenders". The moral of the story would be that albeit most crimes are committed by people whose brains are not 100% healthy (due to malnutrition, unemployment or abuse), there are still crimes that can be committed by perfectly healthy citizens, such is the downside of every human having a free will.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

See, I think you're giving WAY too much credit to Makishima in terms of wanting to empower "people". Cause so far, he's actually shown very little interest in empowering people to fulfill their desires. So far it's seemed like the only suppressed desires that he's interested in being allowed to be expressed are all murderous ones. Perhaps he's been doing other things, but with Makishima's high standards when it comes to serial killers entertaining him philosophically, I somehow can't see him cultivating a normal to be a normal unregistered musician. Makishima did give Kougami a fighting chance...but I suspect that was largely because he saw potential in Kougami to become someone like him. A predator. But if you want to give everyone the hypothetical right to be predators, only the strongest and most viscous will be at the top of the food chain. That's why talking about Makishima wanting to allow *people* the freedom to express their true selves is preposterous. For the kind of things Makishima is interested in, most people are simply exotic cattle to be slaughtered. The only *true* people are predators like him.

…Which is why I never said he wanted to help "most people". Yes, as it stands, only predators would thrive and be able to survive in the society he seems to want to perpetuate. But (whether you like it or not) "predators" are still people, so none of what you're saying is mutually exclusive with what I said about him.

Like I said in his character discussion topic, he's essentially championing individualism, only without making any sort of moral distinctions between people. The fact that some wouldn't have the strength to survive in a world where no one suppresses their will is probably but a natural inevitability to him, and it doesn't change the fact that he truly believes everyone should act based on their will, even if the obvious consequence of such would be for some of those wills to extinguish others.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

That's why Akane disappointed him when she failed to meet his standards of a predator. Because that just made her cattle in his mind. A non person. And before anybody gets too adamant about the need to "consider" Makishima's viewpoint, keep in mind. You'd be nothing better than an animal to him.

Well, that depends. I think it's still important to consider his criticism of the society Sybil's created (some of which also applies to real life societies IMO). But as far as the society his actions and beliefs would likely end up implementing in its stead, then yeah, no thanks to that. I'm all for people having the freedom to express themselves, but in my view that freedom ends the moment it starts intruding upon the freedom of others (and serial killings definitely qualify as such).

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

My main point is that if Makishima considers it wrong for society to repress wanton sadistic homicidal urges, then there probably isn't an organized society in human history that he'd be happy in. Makishima may happen to live in a Totalitarian oligarchy, but that's not REALLY what' he's revolting against. His base complaint would put him up against any human society.

Most likely, yeah, but he certainly seems to believe Sybil's society to be particularly unsatisfactory (to the point of having caused humanity to actually regress as a species) and I believe he's made a lot of good points when it comes to backing that up.

Although, of course, ultimately…

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Psycho-Pass is to me looking Alien VS Predator. Whoever wins, regular people lose. It's just a matter of who winning is the worst for us. And unless you're an unrealistic romantic, I don't think you can say legitimate anarchy is somehow more benign.

…this is absolutely true. Which is why I said the protagonists will likely end up rejecting both and creating a third stance. Or they'll be swallowed up by one of the other two, who knows. Let's wait and see.

[NoemiChan]

Lame episode....

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

One thing I forgot to mention about Ginoza. Interesting contrast between the doubt he'd previously put upon her professionalism (verbally to her, and apparently in reports to his higher ups), and how after this incident he's rather firmly trying to back herself up on this issue. One could suppose that previously was a matter of trying to enforce a kind of tough discipline on a more newbie member who he projected his own insecurities into (rising Psycho-Pass). Once it's a more conventional police matter about her competence staring down a suspect, he comes off as much more supportive...perhaps it's also because he realized that Akane is more resilient than him after her Psycho-Pass wasn't raised as much by the last incident, despite witnessing it first hand?

My interpretation was that he wasn't happy about having to cover-up what was really going on and, even if he didn't like what Akane was doing, it was a chance to work around the higher ups and continue investigating. Or it could just be character development, Akane has proved that she's a determined, hard-working co-worker by now and has managed to do more with the Makishima case now than anyone else has.


Also, to everyone saying that Akane's hue doesn't get cloudly, I thought Shion mentioned in passing (or maybe it was Gino) that Akane's hue had changed color a bit since the basement incident so she's not exactly like Makishima.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Vicious108

…Which is why I never said he wanted to help "most people". Yes, as it stands, only predators would thrive and be able to survive in the society he seems to want to perpetuate. But (whether you like it or not) "predators" are still people, so none of what you're saying is mutually exclusive with what I said about him.

Like I said in his character discussion topic, he's essentially championing individualism, only without making any sort of moral distinctions between people. The fact that some wouldn't have the strength to survive in a world where no one suppresses their will is probably but a natural inevitability to him, and it doesn't change the fact that he truly believes everyone should act based on their will, even if the obvious consequence of such would be for some of those wills to extinguish others.

Dictators and members of an all powerful oligarchy are also people. Does that mean we can characterize a society where 1% of the population has complete freedom to wantonly dominate and inflict harm upon 99% of the society without restriction as being a *free* society? I'm sure if we play around with the semantics of the English language we could find a way to answer that with an unambiguous affirmative, but I'm pretty sure all the laymen English speakers would look at us like we'd just started speaking in Swahili.

Obviously someone like Makishima might think this is a perfectly fine definition of *freedom*, but is it really categorically anything like modern liberal democracy that also espouses the virtues of freedom? Of course Makishima probably wouldn't see any difference between the liberal democracy that Rina is talking about and the Sybil system, so his definition of freedom makes sense. But that's not a useful definition for outside observers trying to compare Makishima, the techno clinical oligarchy of the Sybil system, and actual democratic society with each-other.


You can say in a sense that Makishima is interested in bringing *freedom*, but when we have actual pro democracy activists running around, we need to differentiate these definitions of freedom by remembering that Makishima is a predatory anarchist.

Originally Posted by Vicious108

Well, that depends. I think it's still important to consider his criticism of the society Sybil's created (some of which also applies to real life societies IMO). But as far as the society his actions and beliefs would likely end up implementing in its stead, then yeah, no thanks to that. I'm all for people having the freedom to express themselves, but in my view that freedom ends the moment it starts intruding upon the freedom of others (and serial killings definitely qualify as such).

Indeed. Just because Makishima is a monster doesn't mean it's impossible for him to make legitimate critiques about systems. Not trying to invoke Godwins law in a moralistic way, but I'm sure many members of the Waffen SS invading the Soviet Union were able to observe MANY deficient aspects of the USSR. But this didn't make Mister Waffen SS a friend to all the Russian people under the oppression of communism.


And yes. What you're talking about here is basically VERY different (essentially incompatible) definitions of freedom. The idea that freedom is sacred, but it only goes so far until it violates the freedom of somebody else. It's inherently incompatible with Makishima's desire for the freedom to engage in intellectual/philosophical/recreational homicide.

Originally Posted by Vicious108

Most likely, yeah, but he certainly seems to believe Sybil's society to be particularly unsatisfactory (to the point of having caused humanity to actually regress as a species) and I believe he's made a lot of good points when it comes to backing that up.

Although, of course, ultimately…

Indeed. But that's still not a fundamental shift. His particular dissatisfaction with the Sybil system seems comparable to organized societies particular dislike of particularly sadistic mass murderers. One certainly doesn't need to be a mass murderer to raise the ire of society. Even murderers who only kill one or two people cleanly will be imprisoned for long periods of time, or even killed by the state. The scale of the crime just increases the ire.

Maybe liberal democracy (or almost any other way of organizing society) wouldn't be as appalling to Makishima's world view as the Sybill system, but it doesn't exactly seem like it still wouldn't be enough for him to want to tear it down.

Originally Posted by Vicious108

…this is absolutely true. Which is why I said the protagonists will likely end up rejecting both and creating a third stance. Or they'll be swallowed up by one of the other two, who knows. Let's wait and see.

Well there is poor old Rina on the sidelines adamantly saying she's gonna use the power of rock and roll to bring back the light of freedom and democracy to the people.

[Quadratic]

Unless the director is a complete liar, just putting it out there for people saying Sibyl is 100% "f-ed up":
"Today, the world enjoys a stable properity with the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people."
Of course, one could argue what her definition of happiness is...(And yes, this is despite the shorter life span)


Anyway, I thought the mention of a 2nd division was interesting.
Can we expect spin-off episodes, series or games involving them (or at least having them make a small appearance in this show)?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

Unless the director is a complete liar, just putting it out there for people saying Sibyl is 100% "f-ed up":
"Today, the world enjoys a stable properity with the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people."
Of course, one could argue what her definition of happiness is...(And yes, this is despite the shorter life span)

Oh, come on. Proponents of a particular political system will always make statements like that. They're not "lying" in the strictest sense of the term, because they sincerely believe in their particular political ideology. But that doesn't mean that what they're saying is true.

I'm sure many high-ranking officials in the old USSR had similar sentiments about communism and what it had done for the people of the USSR. That doesn't mean that they were right.

Finally, in a narrative, show trumps tell. If the people of Psycho-Pass are so happy and content, then why aren't we seeing it? What we have seen is a lot of downsides, and a lot of people "falling through the cracks". A lot of people are victimized by the Sibyl system, in one way or another. A lot of these people probably would have lived decent and happier lives in the real world.

And even your normal, everyday people didn't seem that happy to me. Take Akane's two friends, for example. They just seemed to be as happy as most middle class people would be. They certainly didn't strike me as downright thrilled with their lives.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

Oh I agree with you 100%. I don't think Urobuchi is making any kind of allegory here. My own take at this point is that he's just having fun with some very black humor. Perhaps toward the end of the series he will sort things out. Then again, he may continue to mess with our heads to the very last.

Here's my whole deal. Akane, Kougami, Gino and Masaoka all strike me as reasonably intelligent people. Each in his own way has suffered some serious deprivation to the point of dehumanization at the hands of the Sybil system. And yet all of them continue to stick up for the system and the status quo. To wit:
1. When the director reminds Gino that Sybil was responsible for the prosperity and stability of the great many, Gino, who lost his dad to latent criminality, agrees with her without questioning the cost in freedom and human dignity and agrees that public faith in the system must be protected from certain inconvenient facts. This strongly indicates that what the director said to him about Sybil's benefits to society was true.
2. Masaoka says he came to accept and believe in the system long after it had relegated him to being an enforcer and stripped him of his rights as a detective, husband and father.
3. As they enter the confinement center for latent criminals, Kougami tells Akane, without any trace of irony or bitterness, that once the system is done with him that place was where he was going to end up.
4. Akane personally witnessed a catastrophic failure by the system resulting in the murder of her best friend, and yet her quick recovery after the mind scoop indicates that she still sincerely trusted and accepted Sybil and was determined to continue operating within the system.

So the question that comes to my mind is how such apparently intelligent individuals could endure shocking abuse from the system and accept it without any kind of resentment or discontent. The only plausible explanation I can find is a social compact - they believe it's worth enduring these privations in return for having an orderly and prosperous society under Sybil. These people don't strike me as suckers, so the benefits of Sybil that they perceive must be considerable enough, at least in their minds, to offset what it takes from them.

It is simply that Sybil has conditioned society to the point they would literally lay down and die if it were the easiest for them. (See Rikako's father and the stuff in that case like the generally declining life spans)

That kind of conditioning is more total domination than anything (thus Dominator is an apt name for the gun). So intelligent or not, imagine what kind of brain treatments and stuff they have gone through, perhaps therin lies the reason

[Chiaki_chan]

2nd division...? we will see new characters ...? inspector and executor?

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And even your normal, everyday people didn't seem that happy to me. Take Akane's two friends, for example. They just seemed to be as happy as most middle class people would be. They certainly didn't strike me as downright thrilled with their lives.

And how do we show them even happier? Frolicking through some garden or something? Remember that stalker episode and how happy his ex-girlfriend was moving on with her current boyfriend?

This isn't some slice-of-life comedy. There is a police procedural aspect (like Law & Order or CSI), where they are purposely diving into the worst aspect of society because that's what these shows are all about.
Asking why they're not showing any "happy" aspect is like asking why any crime shows don't show any happy things. It just happens that the new breed of crime is related to Sibyl.

I also don't buy the "live happier lives" argument. If you mean they're not in jail, then sure.
But even in real life, dumb people still end up with dumb jobs, and they still get mad because they've got a crap job. Not sure how you expect them to be any happier, if they can't get any smarter.

[Mandarake]

[QUOTE=Cosmic Eagle;4518377]It is simply that Sybil has conditioned society to the point they would literally lay down and die if it were the easiest for them. (See Rikako's father and the stuff in that case like the generally declining life spans)

That kind of conditioning is more total domination than anything (thus Dominator is an apt name for the gun). So intelligent or not, imagine what kind of brain treatments and stuff they have gone through, perhaps therin lies the reason[/QUOTE

I was trying to rationalize their behavior, because on first impression their reactions to the things that have happened to them made zero sense to me. I tried to imagine how I and other people I knew well would react if the same crap happened to us, and it was always totally different.

For example, if I were Masaoka, and the system has deprived me of my property, freedom, family relations, and even dignity, there is no way I could ever muster the energy, morale, self-motivation, efficiency, dedication and tenacity that the real Masaoka displays on the job. I wouldn't joke or smile because I'd be perpetually pissed. What was especially galling to me was that Masaoka was protecting and implementing the very system that reduced him to his current, pitiable state. If that were me I would be hating on anything Sybil-related, and if i ever showed up for work it would be for the sole purpose of sabotage and revenge.

Moreover, we know from Rin's example that armed rebellion and insurrection against the establishment is an available option. Why aren't any of the enforcers choosing this option, given that Sybil has treated each of them worse than Rin? Why isn't there more of a backlash against Sybil?

The funny thing is I never once found Masaoka unrealistic, and still easily connect to and identify with him as a character. The same is true with most of the other regulars. So go figure.