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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 13 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 18 | 30.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 26 | 43.33% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 14 | 23.33% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 1 | 1.67% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 1.67% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-01-21, 07:44 | Link #121 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I was answering the claim that "people prefer ignorance". They don't, they just aren't given the choice. Gino could have said that, since he wasn't entitled to know, he preferred not knowing. He didn't. |
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2013-01-21, 17:57 | Link #122 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Anyways, I'm not saying that they should discard the Sybil system as a whole, but, for instance, they could keep it only for crime prevention.
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2013-01-21, 19:38 | Link #123 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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As Jean-Paul Sarte says: "Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does." With that in mind, freedom is just as much of a burden as it is a blessing. Quote:
This is a common theme in dystopian settings. The setting of Brave New World by Aldous Huxley is one where humanity has achieved common happiness, but at the expense of personal freedom. I don't like to stand on either side of the issue, so I like to represent both sides of the issue.
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2013-01-21, 20:43 | Link #124 | |||||
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Do you think that Kagari never feels burdened by what the Sybil system did to him? Do you think that Tomomi never feels burdened by what the Sybil system did to him and his family? The character in this show that strikes me as the least burdened is Akane. And she's the one who arguably enjoys the greatest degree of freedom of all of the characters in this show. Quote:
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People living in modern 1st world countries tend to have a pretty good idea of what it means to be free. It's not arbitrary. It's been very carefully thought out, developed, and argued for over hundreds of years. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-01-21 at 21:07. |
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2013-01-22, 04:46 | Link #125 | ||||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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2013-01-22, 05:58 | Link #126 | |||||||
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Humans are curious by nature. If someone offers to tell us some secret, our ears tend to perk up, even if the secret is something that we might later regret knowing about. Quote:
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"Arbitrary" is random, whimsical, and impulsive by nature. The modern world's understanding of "humanity" and "freedom" is not at all those things. Quote:
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The society of Psycho-Pass runs contrary to both liberty and equality.
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2013-01-22, 06:35 | Link #127 | |||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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For example, the society you describe is one that values the individual over the society as a whole. Why can't it go the other way around? What about societies that eschew the traditional laissez faire economic model and opt for moderate government intervention? What isn't arbitrary about that?
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Last edited by Qilin; 2013-01-22 at 06:53. |
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2013-01-22, 06:47 | Link #128 | ||||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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To me, that pretty much sums up the other side of this debate, the side that tends to be sidelined when the benefits of individualism and controlling one's own destiny are emphasised. It is also explained very well in the following podcast (hxxp://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2012/12/sea_20121208_0805.mp3) of ABC Radio Australia with Alain de Bottom, on equality. Basically, the podcast deals with the idea of equal opportunity - the idea of anyone can become what they want because everyone is given the same chance to achieve - and the effect that this idea has on people. The way that this has played out in many developed countries is that certain kinds of success are valued about others, ultimately translating to different levels of wealth and status. Furthermore, because of the emphasis on individual will and effort, success or failure becomes dependent on the individual. I won't go into the effect of success, but the effect of failure can be a greater level of unhappiness due to the perception that one is 'not good enough' etc. Or, to put it another way, the responsibility for an individual's failure is placed squarely on his or her shoulders. Of course, one could say that the idea of what it means to 'fail' depends on what each individual values. However, more often than not, whether one has succeeded or not seems to be dependent on whether his/her society values what he/she has achieved, largely because it influences how the individual thinks. And because of the idea that there is 'equal opportunity', people might blame themselves for not achieving what others have, even if the difference is that there hasn't actually been equal opportunity. This then connects to one of Qilin's main points. A society like the one in Psycho-Pass has arguably reduced the responsibility that many individuals feel about the choices they make in life because they take away the problem of failing to achieve what 'everyone can achieve' (unless one is unusual, like Akane or Makishima, for example). I.e., there is recognition from early on that some people can achieve more than others, so less unhappiness is derived from the failure to achieve the same thing. There is, however, still the issue of whether each individual feels that his/her contribution is valued. In the podcast, Alain de Bottom postulates that what is needed is a society that places value on a greater range of things - perhaps even the ideal of people finding value in the work that they can do. I'm not saying that the society in Psycho-Pass has done that - conversely, we have been shown a number of cases where it has not. Yet I do wonder about several things. First, might that ideal have been one of the intents of the creators of the Sibyl-based system (though it may well have been secondary to the aim of on efficiency, utilitarianism etc)? And second, have we been shown a skewed view of PP's world, restricted as we are to the experiences of its crime enforcement unit? ----- edit: Quote:
One of the reasons I ask is that the podcast I mentioned earlier in this post raises an interesting distinction, about the difference between 'equality of opportunity' and 'equality of income' (IIRC). I do not wish to put a value on either 'equality' that I've named here, nor claim that these are the only areas to consider. I'd just like to suggest that there are different kinds of 'equality' and 'inequality', and that different people (and societies) may place greater or lesser value on one or another of them, and that it is important for us to keep that in mind. To play devil's advocate, the notion of 'caste' is also interesting to consider. How do we define that? Can we truly say that developed countries today do not have something similar to a caste system?
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Last edited by karice67; 2013-01-22 at 06:59. |
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2013-01-22, 06:59 | Link #129 | |||||
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Your choice of terms here is... eyebrow-raising to me. There are much better, much fairer terms you could use here for what I think you're trying to convey with "Burden" and "Arbitrary". Quote:
I would argue that the state farthest from freedom is slavery. And what do you think most people think of slavery? Quote:
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I would think that, in the context of Psycho-Pass, this is pretty self-evident. "Latent criminals" are not equal to those that aren't latent criminals. Kagari does not enjoy the same rights and freedoms that Akane does. Since this status is based on mere potentiality, and not as punishment for any actual harmful deed that a person has taken, it can only be considered institutionalized inequality, imo. "Latent criminals" are basically a subclass in Psycho-Pass. In extreme cases, these people are even viewed as something less than human. The Sibyl system has dehumanized these people. The farther we go into Psycho-Pass, the more I'm struck by how these "Latent Criminals" serving on the police force seem like reasonably well-adjusted, decent people. Sure, they might be a little rough around the edges at times, but they're not people I'd mind having as coworkers. I really do question exactly what it is that these Psycho-Pass readings are measuring, and if too much importance has been given to whatever that is.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-01-22 at 07:15. |
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2013-01-22, 07:17 | Link #130 | ||||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Values change with the times. The only values I can think of that are relatively stable are the ones necessary for the sustenance of society. Quote:
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2013-01-22, 07:19 | Link #131 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Can we say that our own societies do not actually encode such inequality as well? Or, if your emphasis in on the difference between a formally institutionalised form of inequality (stigmatisation by means of the Sibyl system) vs. one that is less obvious (stigmatisation because of norms encoded in society), here's another question: Is a hidden/unacknowledged form of stigmatisation/inequality less controversial than a more obvious form?
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2013-01-22, 07:35 | Link #132 | ||||
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I probably should be clear here. I'm not saying that freedom is sufficient in and of itself. I view it as an unambiguously good thing, but yes, it does need to be tempered. The shift you mentioned can serve to "level the playing field", and shift society closer to equality of opportunity (this type of equality is compatible with freedom). The shift you mentioned can also serve to keep the economy stable, which is generally beneficial. But the shift in Psycho-Pass goes beyond the economic realm, of course. Quote:
If so, then the thing with taboos is that you can argue against them, and change them over time (and many taboos don't result in actual imprisonment). For example, there were things that were taboo in 1950s America that aren't taboo (or, at least, aren't as taboo) in modern America. This goes back to why I value freedom of expression highly. Freedom of expression provides a means by which to combat inequality. But how do you express yourself from within a jail cell in the world of Psycho-Pass? The institutionalized form of inequality is harder to combat than the taboo-based form, imo. So yes, I tend to view that institutionalized form in a more negative light.
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2013-01-22, 08:02 | Link #133 |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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no, I'm not talking about taboos. I'm talking about inequalities that are produced/encouraged by the way that a society is structured, but are ignored/sidelined because they are perceived as 'natural developments' resulting from that structure. Things such as inequality of opportunity because of lack of funds, lack of connections, lack of support, for example. I'm not trying to claim that people don't have a responsibility to take advantage of opportunity, but I submit that there is less equality of opportunity in certain societies than the people tend to recognise. Unlike the issue of latent criminals in Psycho-Pass then, these problems are perhaps not even perceived, which could mean that they are even less likely to be addressed. Hence, I would dispute the idea that institutionalised forms of inequality are necessarily harder to combat than other forms of inequality. I'm not saying that they are easier to address - what I'm challenging is the idea that it's as clear cut as has often been implied, and I argue that it is important for us to consider complexities that are sometimes/often ignored. And I wonder if the society in the show has been influenced more by the negative consequences of such societies (which they'd have observed in their own world) than by their positives.
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Last edited by karice67; 2013-01-22 at 08:18. |
2013-01-22, 08:17 | Link #134 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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2013-01-22, 08:20 | Link #135 | |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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Essentially, the Sybil System is majority rule personified, taken to the extreme. It's creating a society where there IS no minority, where everyone has the same values. Everyone has the same values, people don't come into conflict, peace. Everyone wins, except those who don't.
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2013-01-22, 22:50 | Link #136 | |
cho~ kakkoii
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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2013-01-23, 03:37 | Link #137 | ||||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Second part: Yea, that is indeed true....in the end, it's quite a warped world we live in eh? No matter how much one would wish otherwise. It's always the frying pan or the fire one way or another...simply just a question of which is more preferable. Quote:
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In any case, true, solutions differ with scenarios, quite obviously. But what if it's like Psycho Pass world? The whole population (virtually anyway) is in thrall to the system. What would you do? Me, I'd say let em rot, if I were an outsider. But applied to our world? Can I still say that if it has degenerated to that point? In the end, the scope of this problem is like a doctor performing desperate antibiotic therapy and surgery to stave off necrotizing fasciitis. In such cases, it's hard to slowly plan. Especially when the system is actively hunting you down.
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2013-01-23, 20:36 | Link #138 | |
Radical Dreamer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washington DC
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2013-01-24, 02:38 | Link #139 | |||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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At least, that's what I've assumed - I could be wrong. Quote:
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An interesting comparison, I feel, is the eugenics movement from the late 19th to early 20th century. (Small disclaimer: I'm a little rusty about the historical details, as it's been a fair few years since I studied it at uni.) Societies in both Europe and America began to place value in certain physical characteristics. Apparently, there were even awards given for titles akin to 'the fairest family' - or something like that - in town fairs across the U.S. It is highly likely that there were also discussions about and attempts to stratify society by such characteristics. There were, even then, people who saw the horrors that such measures might bring. People like Aldous Huxley and Samuel Butler, to name a couple of dystopian writers. We have seen similar cautionary tales in more recent times, such as Gattaca. But was it these tales that steered us away from them, because people who read or saw them were horrified? Or was it simply that one particular political regime took eugenics to the extreme, resulting in one lesson that we hope the world never forgets? The thing is, it could have kept going the other way, for all we know. Or, alternatively, there could have been some great shock that had the opposite effect of propelling humanity towards such an extreme, unlikely though that may be. Returning to Psycho-Pass, the story that is unfolding before us may be the great negative shock that will cause them to ditch the Sibyl system. But I am still interested in what might have happened in the history of the world that steered Japanese society in the direction it has taken. I should probably have clarified - the place I was talking about is Okinawa, the southern-most prefecture of Japan...
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