Let's Re-Watch Macross Frontier (TV) Together!

[Lancel]

Arguments I've heard tend to focus on the chronology of the events, namely in that Sheryl already knew Ranka was giving him a present being tickets to her first concert. Sheryl didn't reciprocate with what her plans were, but that assumes Miss Jump-In-Face-First had a plan at that point. Still, argument goes that Sheryl knew Ranka's plans and still made her own gift offer knowing that if Hime accepted then Ranka's gift would get snubbed because the two are exclusive.

Tough call if you ask me. The opportunity to fly in a real sky obviously doesn't come up often, and Sheryl can't just take him whenever, the Galia IV trip was a singular opportunity, not just for Sheryl but for Alto as well. Personally I just don't think it would be fair to hold it back from Alto. He should be allowed to decide for himself, though maybe it would have been a bit kinder to mention that she knows what Ranka gave him and say that if he decided to stay for Ranka's concert then she wouldn't be offended, but in fairness to Sheryl, Ranka hadn't given Alto the gift yet. That said, maybe she could have talked it over with Ranka.

Ultimately I feel it was a less than ideal situation all around that could have been handled better.

And now the subject of Sheryl's romantic past. Knowing me I suspect everyone just cringed, but I'll try to keep this one short.

In my opinion Sheryl has dated in the past, she flirts with and drags Alto around quite readily and casually, without being too awkward. How far these flings go, I'd say not far. Sheryl has some issues with talking about her feelings. Singing about her feelings is a completely different story, and that's pretty much a major plot point for the series because this is the aspect that the Vajra pick up on, and what Grace tends to comment on. Sheryl bottles up a lot of her feelings behind the veil of the Galactic Fairy, and then let loose when she sings. This is particularly apparent in episode 7. Further apparent in that Sheryl never confesses love to anyone, she rarely confesses her feelings to anyone, not Grace, not Ranka, the only times she ever does is with Alto, and then maybe... counting off-hand, twice. Once before she gives him the earring the first time, talking about Galaxy (which should probably tip us off that she was pretty much lying when she said she was concerned about Galaxy to Grace the next episode), and the second time before she... Well. You know.

There's a short song on the Universal Bunny album that I think sums this up. Track #5: Time Without You is basically about Sheryl wishing she had confessed her love for someone, but always keeping it to herself, until at last it was too late, and she was left wishing she had just said it. Now as to how authentic it is to her life, we can't say, but I'd suggest that it does at least fit her, and I'd also suggest that was the entire intention of that song's lyrics to refer to Sheryl. I think this adequately sums up the whole matter.

So where does that leave Sheryl? Where Ranka comes across a bit more as a first crush, Sheryl comes across as one who has loved before, but I doubt it ever went far due to her apparent light-heartedness making it hard to know if she's serious. Hell, she might have lost a crush to another girl in a similar fashion to how Ranka presented herself. Sheryl toyed with him for a few months, then some other girl came along and showed an interest and... yoink, dating, off limits. It's a commit issue, only instead of committing to a long-term relationship, Sheryl seems to have issue with committing to just dating.

And then there's the whole messy virginity thing. While it could go either way, my bet would be on her still having it. Committal issues keep her from getting into a serious relationship up until Alto, and she knows enough not to fall for guys that just want to have sex with her, as evidenced by just how fast she sees through Mikhail. She takes her work seriously, and I'm sure a significant part of that work is "How To Avoid a Sex Scandal". Though then we get into any publicity is good publicity, but it's just not the vibe Sheryl's PR gives, which is generally very positive.

She's also only seventeen.

That bit about me keeping this short. Yeah. I lied.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Jeffry2009

Guys, what's the difference between the TV version & Movie version like 'The False Songtress'?

I'd watched that movie that some scenes are completely different compared to the Original show.

They are in essence different stories, with the same themes and elements and the same characters. Alternate realities or parallel universes, so to say.

---

As for Lancels post, I'll keep quiet until Saturday, then we'll discuss. As for the "Is Sheryl still a virgin" part, I don't majorly care, although I think signs point to "yes".

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As for Lancels post, I'll keep quiet until Saturday, then we'll discuss. As for the "Is Sheryl still a virgin" part, I don't majorly care, although I think signs point to "yes".

Oh, I thought we only took Christmas off, haha. I should have checked the schedule. And yeah, I don't care either, but someone asked.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

And yeah, I don't care either, but someone asked.

But I already said that I didn't really care...

[BetoJR]

I really fail to see why some people put so much faith in virginity, these days. Even more when related to fictional characters...

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I really fail to see why some people put so much faith in virginity, these days. Even more when related to fictional characters...

As one of my favorite writers once wrote...

"All sorts of things, however, happen in caves, things which it is wiser to ignore in sunlight. So I ignore: I ask no questions: my business is to marry my daughter acceptably, and that only. Such discoveries as may be made by her husband afterward are his affair, not mine. This much I might tell you, Messire de Logreus, by way of answer. But the real answer is to bid you consider this: that a woman's honor is concerned with one thing only, and it is a thing with which the honor of a man is not concerned at all."

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

But I already said that I didn't really care...

Oh. Then I guess I should take the opposite side to make the debate interesting. *ahem* Sheryl Nome's virginity is important for many reasons to her character, notably in her awkwardness at times and making it clear that she has standards. Further it would suggest that at least Sheryl was not suitably prepared for the rather spontaneous night with Alto, which increases the chances of an Alto/Sheryl ending due to the Shotgun Wedding Principle, which is also important to her character. It's also important that we establish her virginity because otherwise we could only conclude that there is a communist conspiracy to steal and assimilate all of our precious bodily fluids. And that's a very silly notion.

[magnuskn]

I refrain from making a snarky comment about Sheryls bodily fluids, as to keep this board kid-friendly.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I refrain from making a snarky comment about Sheryls bodily fluids, as to keep this board kid-friendly.

You know, right after I posted that I knew someone was going to make a comment about that.

[BetoJR]

Thank God I'm under strict "no coffee" policy.

[Swampstorm]

From what I've seen in blog posts during the initial airing of the series, people who react adversely to the birthday present issue aren't strictly reacting to episode 11, but rather to the ongoing series of hardships that Ranka undergoes between episodes 8-11. Granted, none of this the consequence of Sheryl's actions (and who ever said that the path to becoming a pop star was going to be easy, either?), but the story does a consistently excellent job of elevating one heroine at a time while casting the other to the gutter. So it's all too easy to transfer all your rage regarding the mistreatment of your favourite girl onto her "rival".

But yeah, I'll get into the guts of this particular discussion more when we watch the next episode.

On to other things.

I don't think that a "fear of commitment" is really the issue at stake, Lancel. For one thing, in the second half of the series, Sheryl isn't actually at liberty to make any sort of long term plans for the future, given that little issue with the V-virus. Also, keep in mind that Alto, too, never explicitly confesses his feelings for anyone during the entire course of the series, either. And we don't really need to imagine up a prior tragic relationship on Alto's part just to explain his behaviour, right? (Then again, maybe you could argue in his case that this sort of behaviour simply comes with the territory of being a guy.)

I'd say that the lack of a "commitment" is more a consequence of the incomplete story than it is a consequence of the characters themselves.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I really fail to see why some people put so much faith in virginity, these days.

Well, if we can put faith in its absence, then we should be equally quick to do so for everyone whom we encounter. And if you absolutely had to come up with criteria to make a prediction with, I certainly wouldn't use extroversion as one of them. Don't forget, it's always the quiet ones...

[BetoJR]

In my experience, the quiet ones are simply waiting for the opportunity to get loud. Which doesn't preclude the outgoing ones from being open about their sexuality, either. Remember, stereotypes aren't really your friends.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

In my experience, the quiet ones are simply waiting for the opportunity to get loud. Which doesn't preclude the outgoing ones from being open about their sexuality, either.

I wish that there was an ironic smiley that I could attach to the end of a paragraph so that everyone would unambiguously grasp its intent. I was of the impression that the '' or '' could potentially serve this function, but it's a hit or miss.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Remember, stereotypes aren't really your friends.

Right you are. So perhaps you can see why I would find it perplexing that anyone would automatically assume that one character is more likely to have had a serious(?) relationship than the others simply based on how attractive they are, how they interact with others, or what types of songs they write.

But we digress.

Also, before I forget: when I used the phrase "exploratory" earlier on to describe Sheryl and Alto's interaction in this episode, I had in mind something similar in feel to the interactions in first couple of arcs of Amagami SS (if that helps any), by which I mean a mixture of curiosity, uncertainty and, well... exploration (for lack of a better euphemism). And while you could argue that none of those relationships are necessarily "firsts" either, their presentation somehow seems better able to capture the feeling of an "early"(?) experience, as opposed to having the protagonists agonize over whether they ought to hold hands or not for twenty minutes.

It still feels like I'm unable to convey what I'd originally intended to, amidst all this other discussion, but hopefully that came across a little better.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I don't think that a "fear of commitment" is really the issue at stake, Lancel. For one thing, in the second half of the series, Sheryl isn't actually at liberty to make any sort of long term plans for the future, given that little issue with the V-virus. Also, keep in mind that Alto, too, never explicitly confesses his feelings for anyone during the entire course of the series, either. And we don't really need to imagine up a prior tragic relationship on Alto's part just to explain his behaviour, right? (Then again, maybe you could argue in his case that this sort of behaviour simply comes with the territory of being a guy.)

Nah, it's not meant to explain her actions, certainly not after episode 18 or her lack of expressing feelings, I think there's enough to explain them already. This is just an event I could see having happened to Sheryl, it just seems to fit in neatly, especially considering the song. I may be odd, but I sometimes like guessing what might have happened in the past. I wouldn't even say it contributed to her not expressing her feelings, if anything I'd say that event would make it more likely for someone to express them. At best I'd say it was a contributing factor to the warning flags she got on Ranka getting interested in Alto, but it's not necessary to the narrative. I'm focusing more on pre-18, since yes, I know, 18+ has very extenuating circumstances.

As for Hime, he's a funny man. Trained hard since birth to be an girly actor, emasculated, runs away from home on a mad quest to find his manliness. He doesn't need a tragic relationship added to his backstory. He already has one. His mother. But that really doesn't explain why he doesn't express his feelings either, more it was probably the driving force that led to him leaving home to find himself. His whole issue is that he's still trying to figure out who he is himself, so in a way he is in no position to make long term commitments. Based on the stern upbringing he's presented as having I suspect he barely had an opportunity to actually live his own life, instead living the lives of Princess Sakura and others over and over again. I hate to bring up his mother, but she seems like she was the most decent person in Alto's life, and probably a really, really nice woman. Losing her was the catalyst for him running away, and he went and became a pilot for just one reason: The sky reminded him of his mother. The only people he had were his father who was always hard on him, and probably worse after she died, and his "brother" who is... well honestly just plain creepy if you ask me. I don't think he really had anyone else, just the sky really, and this made him bitter. Ranka and Sheryl warm him up a bit.

Especially Sheryl IYKWIM~ (Yeah, I had to say it. Someone was going to.)

At a tangent I note that Sheryl and Alto seem to have a number of similarities.

I'd say that the lack of a "commitment" is more a consequence of the incomplete story than it is a consequence of the characters themselves.

I hate to blame the narrative, it just seems like that path leads to the horrible truth that everything happened because the author said so.

Though honestly I feel at the end of the series we are left with the suggestion that Alto had reached who he was and reached a commitment through the completion of his story arc and that his single outstretched hand is symbolic of this, but they ultimately decide to leave the details out of it. Kinda like the last play of a football game on television going out due to power loss just as they throw a Hail Mary pass.

Well, if we can put faith in its absence, then we should be equally quick to do so for everyone whom we encounter. And if you absolutely had to come up with criteria to make a prediction with, I certainly wouldn't use extroversion as one of them. Don't forget, it's always the quiet ones...

Darn quiet ones. Yeah, we're allll looking at you Luca.

It still feels like I'm unable to convey what I'd originally intended to, amidst all this other discussion, but hopefully that came across a little better.

I think I see what you're getting at, like they're prodding at each other a bit just to see what the other one does, curious, but careful, testing for a reaction, all the while being complete newbies with how this whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing works. It is kinda tricky to express, but it's basically like they're trying to navigate the social conditions of the process without actually knowing if they meet them. "Should I hold her hand or would that be inappropriate?" or "Is this the part where we kiss?" and refusing to just ask because that would be inappropriate. What a conundrum! Does that help any?

[Yot-chan]

I think we're all forgetting the most important thing here...

Bobby's fro.

Seriously, Bobby's fro is the Superman (the Chuck Norris, if you will) of hairstyles.

It could've stopped Battle Galaxy by itself...if it had thought the situation to be of sufficient seriousness.

It could've sent the Bird-Human packing, lifted Shin plane, and given Mao Nome a blood transfusion at the same time.

It could've rescued the Milky Dolls easily, and stopped the insurrection of 2050.

It could've taken the crown of "MISS MINMAY VOICE" from both Enika and Passel, even if it wasn't on the Macross 7 or 9 fleets.

It could've shielded the Galactic Whales from a whole slew of reaction weapons.

It could've saved Millard's leg and gotten the Flower Girl to Minmay's concert on time.

It could've stopped the Protodeviln in ONE episode instead of forty-nine...and it wouldn't even have had to sing.

It could've disabled Sharon Apple and jogged Guld's memory.

It could've turned Macross II into something inspired and worth watching.

It could've launched the Megaroad-01 without using any precious fuel.

And it could've saved the earth from being bombarded.

Bobby's fro. In your heart, you know it's massive.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Lancel

and he went and became a pilot for just one reason: The sky reminded him of his mother.

I think his love of flying probably was a bigger factor. Did his mother taking him out to make paper airplanes contribute to that? Surely. But to dismiss his becoming a pilot as a simple mommy-complex is not right.

Originally Posted by Lancel

I don't think he really had anyone else, just the sky really, and this made him bitter. Ranka and Sheryl warm him up a bit.

I think his friendship with Michael and Luca should not be discounted so easily. With Michael there was quite a bit of rivalry, but they overcame that as of episode nine.

[Jeffry2009]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

They are in essence different stories, with the same themes and elements and the same characters. Alternate realities or parallel universes, so to say.

So the same characters, same themes but alternate retelling with different story?

..... somebody should make a comparison thread between the Movie & TV show.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think his love of flying probably was a bigger factor. Did his mother taking him out to make paper airplanes contribute to that? Surely. But to dismiss his becoming a pilot as a simple mommy-complex is not right.

Yeah, that is a bit unfair on second thought. I got carried away. My point is more that his mother was very significant to his life and a lot his character. His mother never got to see a real sky in her lifetime and I think this was a large part of what compelled him to become a pilot, whether out of grief, or seeing his mother's dreams for her, or even as a reminder to follow his own dreams in life, it's hard to say. Possible not even Alto knows.

I think his friendship with Michael and Luca should not be discounted so easily. With Michael there was quite a bit of rivalry, but they overcame that as of episode nine.

I don't mean to discount their friendship, but I do personally feel it's not the same as love. I mean it's kinda hard to compete with a good mother.

Bobby's fro.

It could have made Max even more awesome. Admit it, you thought this was impossible.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Lancel

I don't mean to discount their friendship, but I do personally feel it's not the same as love. I mean it's kinda hard to compete with a good mother.

My point was that Alto wasn't exactly alone after leaving his home... distant, yes, but he had friends.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

It could have made Max even more awesome. Admit it, you thought this was impossible.

It's true...I did think it impossible. But you're absolutely right.

It could've saved Focker as well. And it might've saved Kakizaki, but really...why bother?