What Constitutes Child Pornography?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Metaler

Now I admit I don't know as much about Japan as you guys, but I'm pretty sure most people there are disgustingly homophobic. So, no, they're not open about sexuality.

Its not an easy "left-right" thing... on some matters they are far more open sexually or in what constitutes appropriate clothing. They aren't actively homophobic (except for the nationalists) but it is more of a "don't ask don't tell". They certainly have celebrities that are outwardly gay.

What they don't have is the "J-C-I" religious baggage about sex. The cultural mores spring from Shinto, Buddhism, and just basic pragmatism.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

With that said, it's worth questioning about what drives those minors to be in the trade and to be filmed above all things.

Money, sticking it to the man, novelty value.

Now, my take is that since the Japanese society is very open in terms of sexuality,

Not really. Japanese society's view on sex is very different from the western view, mainly because Japanese society isn't dominated by the Judeo-Christian ideas on sex that dominate the Western world, but I would not call it universally more open.

it drives Japanese girls to be precocious in terms of sex at an early age.

You draw this conclusion from shoujo manga apparently. Shoujo romance heroines are not representative of Japanese girls. Are heroines in American children stories representative of American girls? No, of course not.

Some of those girls figured that since there are people who will pay big bucks to sleep with them, so they will exploit this with their body, not knowing what this will lead to.

Thus the solution is education.

If there is indeed a high risk in compensated dating of course. If the risk isn't as high as some would like it (i.e. if the vast majority of compensated dates do not result in sex), education would work as well as telling kids not to smoke pot. Either you tell the not-so-scary truth (which isn't effective), or you bs them (which is even less effective).

[KitsuneShi]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Precisely. Which was what I was more interested about originally, within the context of the Japanese Culture thread.


I work in media. I'm a strong supporter of the freedom of expression. But I've been uncomfortable for a long time with the idea that media producers are not responsible for the actions of the consumers of media products.

It's a cop out, I strongly feel, for media producers to make such claims. We do shoulder some responsibility. The question is, how much?

Media content can influence the way people think and behave. If it doesn't, we may as well stop producing advertisements and stop worrying about "propaganda". So, in the case of Japan, I would be interested to know why there is so much sexual interest in very young people in the first place. When did it begin? How did it come to be so? To what extent can it be attributed to media influence? Not just broadcast media, but also text literature, be it modern or old.

Yes, very true. Same as how our teachers are the pivots of a educated society, media shapes the "being". Not much a coincident that the prefix anim in anime means Soul in latin. Also the question of when did it begin... I would say in all of history sex has always been an interest, as males inevitably are drawn to the opposite sex. Since males start showing hormonal signs at age 13.... welll... you get the idea.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I recently heard a discussion with a psychologist about how the expanded access to pornography on the Internet had radically changed the expectations of young males about sexual relations. She argued that young women were being pressured to take part in things like anal and group sex because pornographic depictions of these types of sexual acts granted them wider legitimacy than they had before the Internet was available. I find that rather plausible myself though gathering evidence on this might be rather difficult.

A quick search on Google brought up this article which makes the same case.


It seems likely that expanded access to child pornography might have similar effects, though obviously on a much smaller group of the population.

From a methodological perspective, the arrival of the Internet provides a clear pre/post division that makes causal inference easier. Your question about whether anime fans have a higher preference for depictions of sexualized children than the population as a whole must confront what researchers call "selection bias." Since people watch what appeals to them, it is difficult to determine the direction of causality from media exposure on the one hand to attitudes and behaviors on the other. This is a serious methodological problem throughout the "media effects" literature. Suppose we find a correlation between watching a lot of televised violence and the propensity to commit actual violent acts. Is that because extended exposure to televised violence "desensitizes" viewers so they feel freer to commit acts of violence, or do people who have fewer inhibitions about using violence find televised violence more acceptable or rewarding and watch more of it as a result? Probably the answer is some of both.

I am a perfect example of this. Throughout my life ive been exposed to many things through media. I can first hand say that it has severely desensitizes my standards. Though I may be capable of self control and proper handling of my being, naturally the norm of society won't. Desensitizing society will lead not only to hell on Earth, but ultimately the forsaking of morality and decency.
And as we talk about the key concerning points that shape the very foundations of mankind, I feel like our government leaders are useless shits.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by KitsuneShi

Yes, very true. Same as how our teachers are the pivots of a educated society, media shapes the "being". Not much a coincident that the prefix anim in anime means Soul in latin. Also the question of when did it begin... I would say in all of history sex has always been an interest, as males inevitably are drawn to the opposite sex. Since males start showing hormonal signs at age 13.... welll... you get the idea.

HISTORICALLY AND PRE-HISTORICALLY, women were considered sexually attractive as soon as they could procreate. Lets guess what age that was? No, lets not because guessing shouldn't be needed --> puberty. There hasn't been an "upsurge" of interest, more like a tapping down of interest and we still have a few outliers who missed the memo.

[Vexx]

Though I may be capable of self control and proper handling of my being, naturally the norm of society won't. Desensitizing society will lead not only to hell on Earth, but ultimately the forsaking of morality and decency.

Assertion> Citation needed. Reference? Data?

[KitsuneShi]

Assertion> Citation needed. Reference? Data?

I'm guessing I have been presuming too much and pushing the boundaries between individual opinion and one that tries to clarify the general situation. Look. The reason I said the arrogant sounding " Though I may be capable of self control and proper handling of my being" was to emphasize my own deviation from society. I have my own personal reasons for this, it wasn't meant to glorify myself, but state the nature of something that is true. At least for the present.
When I say " Naturally the norm of society won't ", I am under a very low impression on society, I honestly can't say I have hope for society. Or do you have a different opinion? When constantly exposed to stupidity and very low standards of morality every single waking day, it really gives me a bias standard. Whether you think it is wrongly placed is up to you.

Here, I have an honest question for you. When a normal human is desensitized to everything from violence,sex,human standards, and not limited to value in life, what is left? From my impression that " the norm will learn towards a tendency of self indulgement ", I somehow think that if everyone was like that, crime of all aspects may be mentally stimulated. I also get the impression that a good many people, simply withhold themselves from any form of crime, regardless of significance ( like theft to rape ), based on a weighing of Law = Punishment to Sin = Gain. Well, when I hear people brag about how they hack other peoples accounts for money, break into peoples cars, trick people into scams, and make money off shady deals, I can really say, I feel that humanity would fall even more.

Now, you tell me. Am I incorrect? I'm sure there are faults so some points of what I say because of bias attrition, however, if that's the case, I'd prefer you explain straightforwardly so I may learn

Edit: Also I further am biased in the fact that when I hear the typical moans of a girl in love sickness, the convictions of people, and the opinions that people hold and what constitutes that conviction, I see nothing but profound arrogance,bigotry, and prejudice. I see intellectuals and/or more pure people as a minority, As I said, if that is TRULY wrong, then please tell me. I am under a very unstable mental state that may very well learn towards unrelenting debauchery or painful, yet morally rewarding advocate of justice.

Edit2: Ive also noticed you were the person who posted the news about chik fil a's new regulations on the Homo marriage discussions. Another example of my impression of humanity. Evaluate that also please.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by Random32

Money, sticking it to the man, novelty value.

Money wise, isn't Japan suppose to be a first world nation ? Such suitation is understandable in places such as Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam. It's evident that those girls are driven by greed and it is disturbing that they will sell their body to the highest bidder for it.

But legit Porn is different, because you are doing so in a controlled enviroment.

Not really. Japanese society's view on sex is very different from the western view, mainly because Japanese society isn't dominated by the Judeo-Christian ideas on sex that dominate the Western world, but I would not call it universally more open.

But they do flaunt blatantly and openly about it. It says something when we have something called To-Love-Ru being seralised in a mainstream manga magazine meant for young boys when it should be more apt for people in late teens.

You draw this conclusion from shoujo manga apparently. Shoujo romance heroines are not representative of Japanese girls. Are heroines in American children stories representative of American girls? No, of course not.

Of course not but just think of what influence it will bring on a impressional young mind.

Thus the solution is education.

If there is indeed a high risk in compensated dating of course. If the risk isn't as high as some would like it (i.e. if the vast majority of compensated dates do not result in sex), education would work as well as telling kids not to smoke pot. Either you tell the not-so-scary truth (which isn't effective), or you bs them (which is even less effective).

You don't really need to preach it on a morale high horse. Just stick to the facts, give a fair assessment and due warnings. Let the child be the judge. It's her funeral if she does not listen.

[sudolicious]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

You don't really need to preach it on a morale high horse. Just stick to the facts, give a fair assessment and due warnings. Let the child be the judge. It's her funeral if she does not listen.

How exactly do you imagine this? How would it be different from what they're already doing today?

The rest of your post is also again pretty... let's call it "weak". There have been enough controversies about stuff like TLR and they already regiment it as far as they can. Just because you don't see stuff like this in the US doesn't mean that japanese society is "very open in terms of sexuality". Honestly, I still have to laugh when I read that statement, I would've never imagined someone to say something like this.

If japan is "very open" then I wonder what you would call the US, or even Germany, where you can watch boobies and listen to people talk about fucking starting from 9am on the most popular broadcasting stations.

[Random32]

@MakubeX2

Money wise, isn't Japan suppose to be a first world nation ?

Yeah. But do you expect young teenagers to be rich? Parents won't buy item X, no money to buy item X, thus need to make money. Thus why not go on a compensated date?

Also, on the topic of selling their bodies. Most compensated dates have no sexual interaction. It's more like selling your time than body. Apparently the most common form of enjo kousai is groups of girls going with groups of older men to karaoke bars to sing karaoke while be paid.

But they do flaunt blatantly and openly about it. It says something when we have something called To-Love-Ru being seralised in a mainstream manga magazine meant for young boys when it should be more apt for people in late teens.

Jump Square's target audience is male 16 - 21. Late teens, just as you said.

You don't really need to preach it on a morale high horse. Just stick to the facts, give a fair assessment and due warnings. Let the child be the judge. It's her funeral if she does not listen.

You assume that enjo kousai is risky enough that a reasonable assessment of risk would say "don't do it." But I don't think it is. Especially considering the above about groups and karaoke bars. Karaoke bars are semi-public places, groups reduce chances of something going terribly wrong. It's not going to be their funeral unless they do something stupid.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by sudolicious

How exactly do you imagine this? How would it be different from what they're already doing today?

I have no impression that Japan is engaging in any sort of moral education.

If japan is "very open" then I wonder what you would call the US, or even Germany, where you can watch boobies and listen to people talk about fucking starting from 9am on the most popular broadcasting stations.

Do they, perchance, advertise porn openly in front of shops ? Haves trades established on soiled underwear ? Have an industry of sexual adult comics ? And are not shy about all these ?

[sudolicious]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

I have no impression that Japan is engaging in any sort of moral education.

I don't usually point this stuff out, but you don't need to hit space before typing symbols like a question mark.

That being said, "moral education" is happening in most decent countries on its own, through parents and school. That's why I was asking how you would imagine this to turn out, cram school for morals? Extra classes in regular school?

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Do they, perchance, advertise porn openly in front of shops ? Haves trades established on soiled underwear ? Have an industry of sexual adult comics ? And are not shy about all these ?

I get the feeling that you're not taking this serious anymore. You just described an industry, not the society. Of course the industry is part of the society and there is a demand to justify this industry, but it's not like japan is particularly proud of this or that most people would approve of this. And most important, it's not a mirror for the whole Japanese society, you certainly can't draw the conclusion that a whole society (the society with the lowest teenage pregnancy rate on the whole world btw) is "very open in terms of sexuality".

Again, it's just an industry. I can answer all of your questions with yes, did you never see adult video stores? Porn shops? Porn ads, online for example? Do you think the US is "ashamed" of this?

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by Random32

Also, on the topic of selling their bodies. Most compensated dates have no sexual interaction. It's more like selling your time than body. Apparently the most common form of enjo kousai is groups of girls going with groups of older men to karaoke bars to sing karaoke while be paid.

Does not mean that the men paying for the service is of an innocent state of mind.

Jump Square's target audience is male 16 - 21. Late teens, just as you said.

I was talking about the original run in Jump. Not Darkness, hence the omitment.

Originally Posted by sudolicious

That being said, "moral education" is happening in most decent countries on its own, through parents and school.

I'm sorry. I worded that wrong and retract that. I meant to say you do not need to enforce values on a child, just lay the bare truth and let him decide.

Again, it's just an industry. I can answer all of your questions with yes, did you never see adult video stores? Porn shops? Porn ads, online for example? Do you think the US is "ashamed" of this?

So why is Japan taking the heat and not America or some other first world nation ? As an exmaple, I am aware that Britain is having the highest Teen Pregnancy rate in the world which is a social ill on it's own. The thing is Japan does have a reputation of it's own while other nation keep a low key lid on it.

Of course, you might like to note my original statement prior precedes with the words "My Take" which states that this is not the universal truth.

[Daniel E.]

A few of the recent posts have been either deleted or edited. Please don't turn this into a personal argument.

[Random32]

@KitsuneShi

Here, I have an honest question for you. When a normal human is desensitized to everything from violence,sex,human standards, and not limited to value in life, what is left? From my impression that " the norm will learn towards a tendency of self indulgement ", I somehow think that if everyone was like that, crime of all aspects may be mentally stimulated. I also get the impression that a good many people, simply withhold themselves from any form of crime, regardless of significance ( like theft to rape ), based on a weighing of Law = Punishment to Sin = Gain. Well, when I hear people brag about how they hack other peoples accounts for money, break into peoples cars, trick people into scams, and make money off shady deals, I can really say, I feel that humanity would fall even more.

Now, you tell me. Am I incorrect? I'm sure there are faults so some points of what I say because of bias attrition, however, if that's the case, I'd prefer you explain straightforwardly so I may learn

Okay, good reasons, but I don't think it plays out well in reality. Were reality to match your reasoning, we would expect to see an increase in sex crime after an increase in pornography, since pornography would desensitize people to sex crime, thus render them more likely to commit them. But this doesn't happen, in every situation that I'm aware of, an increase in pornography is not only not followed by an increase in sex crime, but it is followed by a decrease in sex crimes.

So, from the information I have, you are incorrect. What you say does not match up with reality, at least in regard to porn and sex crimes. I don't see a flaw in your reasoning, but it just doesn't work that way in reality for whatever reason.

What I am asking is that you either provide evidence that supports your reasoning (something that shows that porn results in the increase in sex crimes, or any negative behavior really), tell me why my evidence is bad so I can go look for better evidence, or accept that your assertion is most likely incorrect.

@MakubeX2

Does not mean that the men paying for the service is of an innocent state of mind.

I don't care whether they are in an "innocent" state of mind. I don't care about fighting thoughtcrime. The girls are obviously not getting hurt and they are in there voluntarily and that is enough for me.

I was talking about the original run in Jump. Not Darkness, hence the omitment.

Sorry, my bad. I thought that the original ran in the same magazine as the current one.

EDIT: I saw that DanielE deleted a few posts, minor adjustment to make this post fit again.
EDIT2: Quick replies to makube

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by Random32

[B@MakubeX2

I don't care whether they are in an "innocent" state of mind. I don't care about fighting thoughtcrime. The girls are obviously not getting hurt and they are in there voluntarily and that is enough for me.

I concur.

But I'll like to mention that a court case in Japan that revealed a middle schooler who slept with her cilent in order to continue milking money from him (they had quite a few encounters since she was an elementary schooler ) She was no virgin prior; the case only lands in court because the cilent keeps pestering her after due to the "investment" he had putted in. AFAIK, the court punish the man and did not address the girl.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Random32

Okay, good reasons, but I don't think it plays out well in reality. Were reality to match your reasoning, we would expect to see an increase in sex crime after an increase in pornography, since pornography would desensitize people to sex crime, thus render them more likely to commit them. But this doesn't happen, in every situation that I'm aware of, an increase in pornography is not only not followed by an increase in sex crime, but it is followed by a decrease in sex crimes.

Hang on there. I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

Originally Posted by Random32

What I am asking is that you either provide evidence that supports your reasoning (something that shows that porn results in the increase in sex crimes, or any negative behavior really), tell me why my evidence is bad so I can go look for better evidence, or accept that your assertion is most likely incorrect.

I find the study from the University of Hawaii long on conclusions but regrettably short on details. But it's a start, at least.

The spreadsheet you pulled from the UNODC, on the other hand, is very much more useful and more in line with what I hoped to see: hard numbers, rather than someone trying to interpret those numbers for me without pointing me to the source of the numbers he referred to.

Off the top of my head, I find the Hawaii study weak because it relies a bit too much on conjecture about what is really going on in Japan. In short, there is little to nothing in the report to suggest a causal link between the increase in the availability of sexually explicit material and the decrease in sexual crime. At best, all we can conclude is that there is a strong correlation, and correlation is by no means the same as cause.

This is a serious concern, because we need to consider the other factors that may have contributed to the apparent decrease in sexual crime. To the author's credit, he does mention the increased focus on sex education in Japan over the same period covered in the study. There was also a corresponding increase in awareness among aid groups that were apparently working more actively to provide legal advice to women who have been raped.

That last point may well be an issue because of socio-cultural differences. For example, to what extent are women in Japan more likely than women in other countries to keep quiet if they are victims of sexual crimes? Could the higher incidence of rapes and sexual violence against children in some developed Western countries (as indicated by the UNODC data) be a result of better record-keeping procedures? That is, could there be under-reporting of such crimes in Japan? Based purely on the Hawaii study, we don't know.

The author of the Hawaii report also conceded that it's difficult to measure the volume of sexually explicit material (SEM). In effect, we don't actually know for sure how much more SEM was produced in Japan over the period that was studied. The report fudges this by claiming that mere anecdotal impression suggests that there has been an increase. That, to me, raises the risk of selection bias, which could jeopardise the integrity of the study.

More immediately, it means that you have no basis for claiming definitively that more porn equals less sexual violence against women or children.

Now, as many people have pointed out, Japan is not unique in terms of the availability of SEM. If it is indeed the case that pornography is the key driver in the reduction of sexual violence, I would expect to see fairly similar incidence rates of such crimes in places like Japan and, for example, Britain, Germany and France, where SEM is also freely available (we can argue about the scope and extent of such SEM separately). But that is not the case. Japan's incidence rates are significantly lower than those of Britain, Germany and France.

So, we come back to square one. I see little evidence to confirm, as you suggest, that more porn equal less sexual crime. Yes, the numbers have declined in recent years compared to, say, those in the 1960s (the UNODC report goes back to only 2003). But after that, they have stayed relatively level, and in certain periods, have even spiked up. It could be a statistical anomaly. Or, it could also suggest that other factors — such as economic conditions, variances in the quality and amount of sex education, etc — may be coming into play.

At best, we can claim only a co-relation between the availability of porn and sexual crime. We will very likely need to consider other factors that, for all we know, may actually be the bigger contributors to the observed decline in numbers of such crimes. More importantly, we need a comparative study of these other factors to figure out what exactly makes Japan so different from other developed nations that also have SEM freely available.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

I concur.

But I'll like to mention that a court case in Japan that revealed a middle schooler who slept with her cilent in order to continue milking money from him (they had quite a few encounters since she was an elementary schooler ) She was no virgin prior; the case only lands in court because the cilent keeps pestering her after due to the "investment" he had putted in. AFAIK, the court punish the man and did not address the girl.

He should have avoided her in the first place... Never make deals with a minor...

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Random32

Japan doesn't have a child pornography problem, the rest of the world has a censorship problem.

Who the hell does lolicon harm? I read some lolicon manga and view anime images of young girls. Who am I hurting? No one.

Does reading lolicon make me more likely to harm a minor? I would argue it makes me less likely to. It's an outlet for bad sexual desires that would otherwise would otherwise have a chance of harming someone.

As for anime fandom and overlap with pedophiles. I don't think so. Pedophiles that read lolicon are anime fans like people who like watching pornographic movies are movie buffs, which is to say they aren't. Yes, pedos that satisfy their sexual desires without hurting people tend to read lolicon, but I don't think they are anime fans in the sense that most of us here are.

This man knows what he's talking about

Good work bro, enjoy your pos rep

[aohige]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I wonder. Do you have hard numbers to support that view?

Japan:
In 2004, reported cases of child sexual abuse to the child saftey dept was 1048.
Police record of arrest was 39 cases.

UK:
More than 23,000 incidents were recorded by the UK police between 2009 and 2010.

USA:
The US Department of Health and Human Services reported 83,600 substantiated reports of sexually abused children in 2005.

Even considering the potential "unreported" cases, the difference is incomparably worse.
The truth is, there's probably a significant amount of unreported cases in Japan, but same can be said of UK and US, and even with that considered, it's still a massive gap.

I neglected "social study" numbers because they vary massively between reports, and absolutely nothing concrete in their numbers. Not to mention outdated.
Besides, I seriously doubt "25% of all female children in USA have been sexually abused" to be anywhere near accurate.

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

I have no impression that Japan is engaging in any sort of moral education.

Wait, what the hell?
When I was growing up in Japan, "Doutoku" (道徳) was one of the required classes in schools.
It literally means "Morality". Yes, we actually had to take moral education classes in schools.
Looking at the current curriculums, it seems it's still part of education in Japan today.

So I don't know what you're talking about?
Your vision of Japan seems to be vastly different from my real Japan.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by aohige

Wait, what the hell?
When I was growing up in Japan, "Doutoku" (道徳) was one of the required classes in schools.
It literally means "Morality". Yes, we actually had to take moral education classes in schools.
Looking at the current curriculums, it seems it's still part of education in Japan today.

So I don't know what you're talking about?
Your vision of Japan seems to be vastly different from my real Japan.

Moral education... Something about this seems uuh, fishy. No, I'm not doubting you, I'm just saying that idea of teaching kids about morality seems a bit.... strange. For me, morality is something you learn naturally through social life, in much the same way we learn our native languages. If we grow up in a socially healthy environment, chances are high that we will also learn how to be morally correct through it.