2012-10-30, 11:22 | Link #1401 | ||||
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My point is that there's no evidence that once the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode that the person holding the gun can manually override back down to "Paralyzing shot". So if the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode, an option has been taken away from the person handling (that option being "shoot to non-lethally subdue"). A speedometer doesn't take options away from police officers. It's still at their discretion as to how to respond to a "red" speedometer reading. Quote:
Even given these very specific circumstances, I don't see how lethal shot is preferable to paralyzing shot purely for the sake of eliminating the immediate threat posed by the target. So I don't think that shifting from Paralyzing shot to Lethal shot is simply a reflection of immediate threat level. I think it's because the Crime Coefficient has shot up, and the Dominator basically determines that once a person's CC goes so high, that person is beyond the point of rehabilitation (hence "it's Ok to kill him/her"). The fact that this rape victim is successfully recovering shows a weakness in the the Dominator, imo - It can take an unwarranted "Shoot to Kill" approach with certain targets. Quote:
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2012-10-30, 12:07 | Link #1402 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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For me, as long as there are choice to choose, without pressure, it isn't forced, it merely a recommendation... However you think if one choice is taken away, even if there are still several different choices, than it is forced... Quote:
2.) Episode 1 never show increase in CC, but there are Target Threat's Judgement and that what invoke the Lethal Eliminator mode. Right now the evidence presented by the show is as I explained. Of course it can be wrong if further evidence proof otherwise. Quote:
Though is it dominator fault if the trigger is pulled? Because from that sentence you seem to blame dominator if the action is took. But for this issue, I would refer to my first sentence in this reply... |
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2012-10-30, 12:51 | Link #1403 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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As I've highlighted before, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Criminal Investigation Department's logo is adapted from the North American symbol for the medical profession. We are, in essence, being invited to ask: "What if an individual's potential for 'crime' can be detected in a way similar to how we diagnose disease?" We're being asked to put aside our disbelief and to imagine an ethical system built on that premise. The premise is, at heart, quite simple and is, in fact, not very far removed from some of the ideas proposed by contemporary scientists as renowned as Samuel Harris and Richard Dawkins: that it makes no sense to have a justice system that punishes criminal behaviour after the fact if science could show that a defendant was psychologically incapable of distinguishing right from wrong the way healthy individuals can. Monsters do exist. Serial killers are, for example, wired very differently from normal people and they can't help but kill. And to take the premise one step further, if you could in fact diagnose criminal potential — and in this alternative reality, the underlying assumption is that it can be measured very accurately — would it be morally responsible to let the individual roam free when appropriate treatment is readily available? I have asked whether an individual actually has a choice in such a scenario. If you believe yourself to be a moral individual, and wish to behave morally, yet have been diagnosed with a high criminal coefficient, would it be moral for you to refuse treatment and subject people around you to a higher risk of harm? In case you're thinking that this is a paradox — how can a moral man possibly have a high crime coefficient? — think again: there are plenty of experiments, scientific and non-scientific, to amply show how people very often over-estimate their abilities and are basically very poor judges of their limitations. In real life, it's very easy to know the right thing to do, but quite a different thing to do the right thing when it matters. It's more than likely, I feel, that the origins of the Sibyl System lie somewhere near this premise, of handling the potential for crime as a treatable disease. The methods for treatment, as we've already been shown, echo the ways we'd handle contagious diseases today. Preventive methods include daily medication: Akane mentioned, very early in Ep1, her surprise that any individual could have allowed his hue/CC to rise so high; it hints strongly that it's a norm in this alternative reality for people to self-medicate for "criminal" tendencies, a norm that was further portrayed in Ep2 as Akane busied herself preparing for a working day. And for people who are far more psychologically damaged (very diseased), isolation is enforced. There is the underlying assumption that criminal potential is contagious (let's put aside the objections to this in real life; there is a need for suspension of disbelief for the story's conceit to work), a point that was passingly reinforced in Ep2, when Akane's personal assistant program advised her to take medication to prevent contamination by environmental stress. Again, as I've pointed out before, this is not very different from the way we would handle contagious disease, such as the recent SAR or H1N1 flu epidemics: we identify and quarantine the vectors as quickly as possible, while searching for a vaccine or cure. In such a world, the focus of law enforcement has changed, in response to a reality where crime prevention has become a matter of number crunching. This fictional premise is not original. Many have pointed out Psycho-Pass' similarity with Minority Report, for example. But, in reference to a recent thread elsewhere in the forum, the execution differs greatly. In Minority Report, crime prevention was made possible by a more far-fetched technology, that of tapping the mental abilities of a trio of psychics. Psycho-Pass, on the other hand, taps into facets of neuro- and behavioural that have already been extensively documented, to the point where much of the basic conclusions are already part of public knowledge. In other words, Psycho-Pass is grounded in something more real, more possible. My arguments in support for the Sibyl System come from this angle. It's easy to dismiss dystopian fiction as something that could never happen in real life. It's much more fun, on the other hand, to imagine how it could have come to pass. Because, quite frankly, I would be somewhat disappointed if, in the end, all I got from this show is a dystopian view that is a no-brainer to hate. Such stories are dime-a-dozen. I'm more interested to see if Psycho-Pass could present scenarios where there are no "win" conditions: no matter what choice the characters make — obey or disobey the system — they lose. Ep3 came close, but still fell somewhat short of the mark, I felt. It left me with no real sense of unease nor feelings of conflicted morals. My comment to Gen Urobuchi would be: Nice try, but try harder. |
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2012-10-30, 13:11 | Link #1404 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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EDIT: Actually disregard that. To put it a little better: What makes you think employers DON'T get a say in the matter? Last edited by Dengar; 2012-10-30 at 17:00. |
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2012-10-30, 17:24 | Link #1406 | ||||||
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I think that you, and some others, are downplaying the influence that Sibyl holds over the world of Psycho-Pass. Quote:
In any event, your speedometer/Dominator analogy is not a good one for the simple reason that a speedometer doesn't strictly limit choices like this. As for the whole "POOL with oil and lighter and such condition", you're missing my point there. My point is that Paralyzing shot is probably just as effective a means as negating that situational threat as Lethal shot is. The person who was raped, her psychological state changed, and that is why her Crime Coefficient went up, in my opinion. Not because (or at least not just because) of the whole pool of oil situation. Quote:
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Not at all. My questions were designed to point out how you are making assumptions and presenting them as facts. The fact is that we don't know if Akane's employer even had the option of saying "no" to her (i.e. "No, we don't want you for this job position"). So there's no basis for you to write "Nope, it's actually employers who refuse to hire people with anything short of an A rank." For all we know, employers may have little-to-no say in the matter. Quote:
The War on Drugs came to pass, but many would argue (correctly, imo) that it's rather indefensible. And, truth be told, I see some similarities between the Sibyl System and the War on Drugs. The Sibyl System criminalizes people simply for having dangerous minds/moods, even if they haven't hurt anybody. The War on Drugs criminalizes people simply for using drugs that affect their mind/moods (sometimes in dangerous ways), even if they don't hurt anybody. The Sibyl System is defended on the basis of how it "promotes healthy living". The same is true of the War on Drugs. The Sibyl System is seen as a means to prevent serious crime. And you know what? Much the same is true of the War on Drugs. And just like I would argue that the War on Drugs creates many societal problems (turning otherwise law-abiding drug-users into serious criminal elements due to the effects of incarceration), I can see much the same with the Sibyl System (turning otherwise law-abiding citizens into serious criminals due to how they snap under the weight of the system). Quote:
A big part of the reason why I've argued a lot against the Sibyl System is that I think there's a decent chance that Gen is aiming for a thematic point against societal systems similar to it, and/or that Gen is aiming for a thematic point against the premises behind such systems. Perhaps Psycho-Pass is actually a counter-argument against determinism. One of the most effective ways to argue against a philosophy is to show how, if you take that philosophy to its logical extreme, you get something that almost nobody would actually want. To a certain extent, this is what Orwell did with 1984 - He shows how if you take the authoritarian propaganda-based nationalism that abounded throughout much of the era that Orwell lived in, and if you take it to its logical extreme, you get a rather chilling dystopia. Personally, I find this no less compelling than an ambiguous work that just asks questions. In fact, having a narrative that effectively makes a thematic point against a certain prominent philosophy can be very, very compelling, imo.
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2012-10-30, 18:36 | Link #1407 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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These days I'm really busy so I have no time to join actively the 3d and read each post, but at least I'll post some considerations
As I said before to me it's harder judging the single act of a character or such, because, so far it is questionable depending on each own believe, I can see that. So I'm questioning more on where this kind of system is leading the society to. I mean, my idea is that so far there's nothing really black or white yet (ok, to me there is, but let that aside) but there are symptoms that indicate a negative trend. And aside from the single event of killing a victim because she has been "infected" or a micro society in which bullying is encouraged as a mean to release the stress (but ultimately to keep up the productivity) from a wider perspective what I'm seeing is that this system is pushing people to stop thinking, this is the real problem there. People are (starting to) not questioning on what is right or what is wrong because something, the Sibyl system, started thinking for them. As a side effect obviously, not as a main goal. Spoiler for the little parable of Arya and the SATNAV:
Here the moral. May I say that the SATNAV is evil? No. May I say that Arya is evil? Neither. But I can say that deep down Arya has lost something in the process. And if now Arya is dumber than before surely it's not a big deal, but what if this kind of process would apply to something different, something more deeper than going home? Like judging people. Today we would say, the Sibyl system is cool but I can judge people by myself. Tomorrow we would say, f**k I chose the wrong person last time, let's Sybil do it for us. And the day after? (pun half intended). What I'm trying to say is that what is wrong is the direction of Psycho Pass evolution, and not something specific, not yet. But Akane will save all us Somehow I can see some similarities between Psycho Pass and what Agent Smith told once: Quote:
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2012-10-30, 18:53 | Link #1408 | ||||
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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People don't follow it because the dominator doesn't give them choice, but because they decide to trust dominator recommendation... I don't downplay Sibyl influence in world of Psycho-Pass, I know how severe it's influence is society (such as hue as the new beauty standard)... What I don't agree is your statement that the human is forced by Sibyl... Quote:
I see dominator as tool so I treat it as tool: To use it or to not use it. What other option do you have when you use a tool? Also, there are no pressure directly from dominator itself, allow the human to choose... Quote:
Dominator only see the Target's Threat at that point and change accordingly... While the CC went up to 110, it only activate the Paralyzer Mode as Masaoka and Akane shown... Quote:
Much more 'humane' than shooting leg and crippling the target... |
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2012-10-30, 19:25 | Link #1409 | ||||
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The Enforcers are treated as dogs, correct? That's how they're portrayed, as "hunting dogs". Now, does a dog-owner give his dog recommendations, or does he give his dog commands? Quote:
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Is the Dominator the toll of the Enforcer, or is the Enforcer the toll of the Dominator? Maybe the gun's very name itself is a not-so-subtle hint from Gen... Quote:
But Akane's actions in Episode 1 clearly aren't standard operating procedures, or she never would have been questioned on them the way she was by Ginoza.
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2012-10-30, 22:28 | Link #1410 |
Nonsense!
Join Date: Feb 2010
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True, but she didn't obey standard operating procedures starting from when she stopped Masaoka from Paralyzing the victim. If she had, then Shinya would not have been shot as well. Ginoza clearly does not give a shit about the victim, it seems that he was more angry with Akane about her shooting one of the hounds and not just Paralyzing her straight away. It's Ginoza who's questioning her here, not the Sibyl system.
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2012-10-30, 22:37 | Link #1411 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Now do you remember what the inspector called? Handler. So who handle the dog? The handler or the dominator? Who gives commands and what gives recommendation? Quote:
It is a problem for you but acceptable to me as long as Sibyl doesn't pressure (thus forced) the user. Quote:
You've been clear that your problem is dominator take some choice from you and you won't take my argument that even if dominator take some choice, it isn't a problem because there are still several other choices... What I've seen so far from dominator is merely the order of police's procedure: 1) Investigate whether the person is indeed the suspect (scan the target) 2) Apprehend the suspect (What Masaoka did is episode 2) From here, dominator take over 3) Gives warning shot (Paralyzer) 4) Shoot the limb or tase (Paralyzer) If the target project danger to police 5) Shoot to death (head or chest) (Lethal Eliminator) Unless your police don't have these procedure, I can't see dominator become such a problem because what it does is actually normal. Quote:
a) She prevent Masaoka shoot the paralyzer, thus b) Alllow the woman's Target's Threat increased, which c) Trigger the Lethal Eliminator due to her endanger Kogami, yet d) She shot Kogami who fell on the pool of oil while the woman still have the lighter If Kogami dead because the Lethal Eliminator shot to the woman, it will be Kogami's fault. But Akane's shot that paralyze Kogami can be seen as endanger Kogami even more, due Dominator's Target's Threat Judgement on the woman. In my opinion, the reason Ginzo ask Kogami after Akane's explanation is because Kogami pretty much one of the factor in the incident... At least that is my interpretation... |
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2012-10-31, 01:56 | Link #1412 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I think most of us generally agree on the point that something went wrong somewhere in this alternative reality, and that it quite possibly started the same way you suggested: a cool new technology came along that was so useful, that made so many people's lives so much easier, which took away the anxiety and guesswork in deciding the careers that one is most suited for, that people began to rely too much on the system, thus creating a new set of problems to replace the ones that were eliminated. It's a scenario that is very easy to relate to, because we can think of so many examples in our everyday lives. Your SATNAV system alone is a great example. This is the key reason I find the argument that the Sibyl System is inherently bad to be unconvincing. It's not so much the system that is at fault, but the habitual reliance on the system that is the root problem. Going along with that line of reasoning, I've wondered if the reason for Akane's perfect hue despite the considerable stress and trauma she has experienced is the result of her attitude towards the Sibyl System. Unlike her peers who seem only too ready to push all decision-making — and subsequently all direct responsibility — to the system, Akane consciously thinks about her choices and strives to take active responsibility for the consequences of her decisions. I'm sure most of us are familiar with people around us who constantly moan about how they suffer because of the system, refusing instead to take a hard look at themselves, at their own failings that led them to their present problems. Instead of thinking actively about what they need to do to dig themselves out of their hole, they waste time saying that there's no point in doing anything because the system will work against them anyway. In effect, they dig a deeper grave for themselves through their procrastination. In other words, what I'm saying is that, in reality, many people are miserable because they wait for others to solve problems they should instead resolve on their own. There's a high chance that a similar situation exists in the Psycho-Pass universe. It's a matter of changing one's perspective to life. Faced with constraints, does one say, why bother doing anything, because the system won't let me do what I really want. Or does one instead think of making lemonade from lemons? I suspect that Akane is psychologically resilient because she consciously makes the best of whatever she is given, at a time when everyone else wishes for more incentives before they bother lifting a finger to work. Does one deserve more without working hard to earn the reward? |
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2012-10-31, 02:12 | Link #1413 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, Akane's been given a lot by the system. Starting with choices. It's not everyone who has them.
And you'd think people who can cruise into an ok life and never think about anything they don't want to think about (because Sibyl does it for them) would be the least stressed. |
2012-10-31, 02:40 | Link #1414 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I mean, if you're born in Rwanda in a time of genocide, what choice do you have but to make the best of what you have? Moaning about your lack of realistic choices isn't going to solve your life-or-death problems. |
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2012-10-31, 02:45 | Link #1415 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Then there's of course the fact that for some odd reason you chose to completely ignore the second half of my post. >_> Re: Akane had choices VS normal people don't. It's the same in real life. Only the BEST get to choose their jobs. Those who suck are supposed settle for what they CAN get. This is reality. Some people become presidents, others become video store clerks. I'm also getting tired of hearing this BS about recommendations taking the choice away. That's utter and complete BS. It's suddenly the system's fault because people CHOOSE to go with what the system says? That's like saying guns are at fault for making people CHOOSE to use them to shoot people. It must be nice, living a life where you can absolve yourself from all responsibility, saying crap like "X made me do it, I didn't have a choice". Don't give me that crap, you ALWAYS have a choice. I'm sorry for getting a bit heated here, but the mere notion of escaping responsibility gets my blood boiling fast. |
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2012-10-31, 04:31 | Link #1416 | |
Hardcore meets Casual
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Age: 35
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2012-10-31, 05:42 | Link #1417 | |||||||||||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Guys! GUYS! A pool of gasoline doesn't explode. It just burns, and the rape victim and Shinya would painfully burn. You guys are influenced too much by action films...
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In fact, I would say our social culture pressures us to "keep our s*** under wraps" to the point where people fear seeking help because they think people will brand them as weak. Heck, in my country there's a legendary rugby player who did an advertisement on admitting he had mental depression, expressed that it's ok to feel depressed, one shouldn't fear asking for help from friends, family and professional people. Sounds like it's time for social change. Quote-unquote therapy only applies to latent criminals. At this point in time, there's still much speculation on what actually defines a latent criminal. Of the ones we've seen that has committed serious crimes are the rapist and the hacker, and the rape victim who was on the verge of killing herself and Shinya. Normal therapy seems fine, as we see the rape victim isn't shown being tortured, sitting opposite to a doctor who's reading her medical data. As for the rapist (Geez, notice how we don't even use his name? How cruel are we?!), I'm speculating (obviously): 1) The girls in ep 2 casually talked about the whole mental health subject to each other, so I don't think going to therapy is reputation breaking. 2) Quote:
Maybe medical science hasn't advanced as far as it should, maybe he decided to mix drugs, making things worst for himself, prior to getting flagged and let loose. I doubt we'll ever know what his real situation actually pushed him to get flagged in the first place, but obviously the social pressure of being branded a latent criminal made him go the whole way. Quote:
Sibyl fails for small populations (eg. like your rural area) because there are chances no one is meets the requirement on some standard, so you heavily rely on each other, for better or worst. Applying rural-style rules fails as a population grows. Same skill sets are common. As they say, "Too many cooks spoil the broth", and productivity drops or not as good as it should be. It's a chaotic mess. What you sacrifice (choice, self-empowerment) is supposed to be gained in efficiency and productivity. Of course, this only works properly if there is a clear intent in what you're trying to produce. The fact that we don't understand the "meaning of life" means we're slaving away for no reason and "scaling up" actually serves zero purpose. This is a real life issue that is apparent regardless of Sibyl or not (Yes, I'm aware how pessimistic that sounds). Quote:
The internet started based on a system of trust. Clearly, we weren't trustworthy which is why it's turned into a wild frontier that it is today. It's clear society wasn't trustworthy with the data Sibyl calculated, which is why there are arguments about things like infringing privacy and the latent criminal reputation. Quote:
Speculation is whether he meant at that time or all the time. Considering Akane was the only one out of 500 people, I'm banking on the latter. Quote:
As I responded earlier to Anh_Minh: Quote:
Person A is a latent criminal. Person A has the job aptitude to work in CID. Kagari given a choice of isolation or join CID. Speculation on my part that Sibyl gave out TWO "numbers" separately, and the people put the two together and that's his choice. If you're going to counter argue that Sibyl's not a calculation type machine by using the Dominator as the example, it's obviously dependent on the numbers Sibyl gives out, but it in itself interprets how to change modes based on those numbers, which is why it locks itself if it cannot talk to Sibyl but still is able to authorize usage to Akane and company (ep 3). Quote:
Sybil may be "new" technology, but people haven't changed. Misusing tools? Check. Crime? Since the begining of time. Adaptation? People smarten up and flourish or collapse under its own weight. Let's wait and see which way Psycho-pass wants to go with Sibyl in their lives. Quote:
I think you will have an understanding on what the problems are with the "solutions" (there's no silver bullet, obviously), which is exactly why a lot of the cold comments make sense. Spoiler for Off topic:
In the end, I still think the people themselves hold a much larger responsibility than Sibyl. Quote:
That's completely irresponsible. It falls on the level of "if I don't understand it, it must be magic". Crunching numbers is not some magical/higher level power. Anyone who's done some sort of computer support to friends and family, will know exactly what that means. Anyway, I think the whole argument has been drawn out long enough for me, because short of getting a transcript of all 3 episodes and analysing each scene shot by shot, the rest is all speculation. In fact I'm surprised 3 episodes managed to drag out this much for and against arguments in the first place, since I thought there wouldn't be much arguments in favor of Sibyl in the first place so I humorously decided to defend Sibyl. |
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2012-10-31, 07:53 | Link #1418 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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When viewed in light of your POV - crime as a disease - the show starts to make a lot more sense. Regards Sibyl, when viewed in the Crime as a Contagious Disease perspective, it then becomes a powerful and crucial tool to ensure that society is safe. I personally think that it has good uses, but as Masaoka pointed out, part of the problem young people have today is that they're not good on dealing with stress on their own because they're reliant on the system. And then of course there's the usual cyberpunk genre convention where if something like Sibyl exists, sooner or later it's gonna end up tampered, sabotaged, or becomes self-aware and goes rampant.
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2012-10-31, 11:17 | Link #1419 |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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It's....actually possible to scan a bot...O__o
Sibyl really does nothing but put stereotypes everywhere....Like black comedy land or something...seriously, that overseer.....stereotypical sociopathic boss. That he's even in that post is more than sign enough that Sibyl has seriously gone wrong. Anyway, does anyone have a list of the different color hue readings?
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2012-10-31, 17:44 | Link #1420 | |
Nonsense!
Join Date: Feb 2010
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As for the Hue Scans, the colors do not matter. It's the lightness/darkness of the colors. See this picture here:http://i48.tinypic.com/ngsuti.png There are different colors for every person, but there is one identifiable pattern, the hues that become darker over time are judged to be too "stressed out," and transferred to another workplace. Also apparent is that all the other "mentally healthy" workers have bright/light colors-seafoam green, pale blue, pink, lilac, etc. Akane's Psycho-Pass (which seems to be synonymous with the result of your hue scan) was described to be powder blue, another light color. On the other hand, the rapist in episode one had forest green and his victim was steel blue. Note that these are both dark colors; the rapist specifically says that their PP's have "become muddy." The "hue," aka the approximation of the scan's result to a more basic color (eg. steel blue -> blue, or magenta ->l red) does not really matter. It is the lightness/darkness of the hue itself that measures a person's level of stress. I believe that the hue may actually be an indicator of personality types. Similar to the blood type personality tests that the Japanese are so fond of, but actually correct because Sibyl "calculates" the color using the person's brain scan data.
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action, psychological, science fiction, thriller |
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