Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Game Players)

[Touko]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I see. While I am not the most astute VN player, I find some of this information rather hard to surmise based on the in-game text. For instance, this 'root' was never properly described, in my view. Am I just bad at gleaning information, or are some of these concepts fleshed out more in related works (like Tsukihime, perhaps? I never completed the game)?

You need to broaden your horizon.

You will never be able to understand a single piece of Nasu's work by itself in isolation. His universe-building and philosophies are cumulative and explained throughout all the games/novels/supplementary materials.

That, and all his works allude to each other. You will miss a lot of those too if you have only been exposed to one or two games.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

The Root gets more fleshed out in Kara no Kyoukai.

Ufotable has adapted the novel in to seven movies.


I do recommend finishing Tsukihime, just because it's a Type-Moon work and The Far Side of the Moon routes (Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku) are more enjoyably than The Near Side of The Moon routes (Arcueid and Ciel), but that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Touko

You need to broaden your horizon.

You will never be able to understand a single piece of Nasu's work by itself in isolation. His universe-building and philosophies are cumulative and explained throughout all the games/novels/supplementary materials.

That, and all his works allude to each other. You will miss a lot of those too if you have only been exposed to one or two games.

It would appear to be the case! I'll try out Kara no Kyoukai, but we'll see how far I get... my days of anime fandom have definitively withered (I watched and played Fate during my heydey, which is the only reason I would even think to watch Fate/zero in the first place). I like that his work is set up like that, as it reminds me somewhat of my favorite author, Tolkien.

[Touko]

If you want to have terms defined and learn about concepts, go for Kara no Kyoukai. Touko Aozaki teaches you about Nasuverse lore every other page.

However, it is a horribly dry read. Tsukihime is definitely more fun.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

So you think he was lying? Because he made it seem like Tokiomi would be aware that Sakura would be sacrificed as an 'experiment' for their benefit. I suppose it's too ambiguous to know for sure.

Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:

"Reaching 'Akasha'. There is no greater purpose than this to us Tōsaka. But, sadly, the Einsberns and Matōs, who once shared the same motive, have lost track of it to more worldly matters, and have now totally forgotten their original intention. I won't even mention how they have invited four Masters from the outside, as well. They want the Grail for their despicable lust and nothing else."


He did know the Matou weren't really on the magus bandwagon and even castigates the other family's desire for things outside of Akasha. It stands to prove that while he might not have had all the facts, he was certainly aware they were not in it for the original magus goal. And sending her away was supposedly because some people would take her away as an experiment due to not having a House's 'protection', so it's not like it's unheard of for magi to use extra 'material' as they see fit.

Plus Zouken hasn't ever given away his Crest to anyone in all the years he's lived, the bloodline is rapidly deteriorating, and the family who shunned apprentices for centuries is perfectly okay with taking an outsider's child all of a sudden. Very odd.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:

"Reaching 'Akasha'. There is no greater purpose than this to us Tōsaka. But, sadly, the Einsberns and Matōs, who once shared the same motive, have lost track of it to more worldly matters, and have now totally forgotten their original intention. I won't even mention how they have invited four Masters from the outside, as well. They want the Grail for their despicable lust and nothing else."


He did know the Matou weren't really on the magus bandwagon and even castigates the other family's desire for things outside of Akasha. It stands to prove that while he might not have had all the facts, he was certainly aware they were not in it for the original magus goal. And sending her away was supposedly because some people would take her away as an experiment due to not having a House's 'protection', so it's not like it's unheard of for magi to use extra 'material' as they see fit.

Plus Zouken hasn't ever given away his Crest to anyone in all the years he's lived, the bloodline is rapidly deteriorating, and the family who shunned apprentices for centuries is perfectly okay with taking an outsider's child all of a sudden. Very odd.

Did the Einsberns actually lost sight of there goal? From there actions it still seemed like they where trying to regain there lost sorcery, Heavens Feel.

[Altima of the Gates]

I am making the point more about the Matou than anything else, since you're right, that is the Einzbern's goal, so I dunno why he says that about the Einzbern's beyond maybe talking about bringing in hired help to do their work instead of participating themselves.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I am making the point more about the Matou than anything else, since you're right, that is the Einzbern's goal, so I dunno why he says that about the Einzbern's beyond maybe talking about bringing in hired help to do their work instead of participating themselves.

I think for a very traditional magus like Tokiomi, reaching the Root is more important that regaining the lost miracle.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought they too had lost sight of their original goal and wanted to win just to win.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I'm playing Heaven's Feel for the first time after finishing Fate/Zero. I recall much discussion about how much responsibility Tokiomi holds for Sakura's fate... I'm surprised no one mentioned in spoiler tags or anything about the scene I just played through...? Zouken plainly states he and Tokiomi were using Sakura as an experiment for both their sake's. Is he lying or am I asking questions that will be answered soon?

I'm pretty sure Zouken is just outright lying there. Or, it was retconned when Nasu/Urobuchi realised that he wanted Tokiomi to actually not be an unsympathetic jerk in Zero....

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

True, I understood that bit, but from what Zouken said, it would seem Tokiomi was aware of his decision to 'experiment' with Sakura and turn her into a grail for them. Prior, I was under the impression (and it seemed many Fate/Zero viewers in the thread were as well), that while he knew her life wouldn't be easy, he didn't understand she would be made into a sacrifice/tortured... but based on what Zouken said this doesn't seem to be possible.

I see no reason to assume Zouken is actually telling the truth, though, given that we know Tokiomi did not give Sakura away to be used as an experiment. It's not like Zouken has any issue with lying for his own benefit, or even just for the hell of it.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

To add to this.

Zouken probably isn't even aware that what he is saying is wrong because

Spoiler for Heavens Feel:

the pain of his decaying body is effecting his memory.

Like in how his true goal isn't actually immortality, but reaching the Root like any other magus.

(at least if I remember correctly, it has been some time since I played Heavens Feel)

What's so wrong with just assuming that he's outright lying? Zouken is not an honourable person, and nor is he someone like Kotomine, who uses the truth to make his trolling more fun.

He has nothing to lose from lying there, and it makes him sound a little more like a proper magus (and, thus, someone Shirou can trust to be being honest about his motives for killing Sakura). Essentially, he's saying that Tokiomi (who Rin very much looks up to) was willing to sacrifice his daughter for their purpose, so he isn't all that bad himself and, thus, can be trusted.

Remember, he's trying to trick Shirou into trusting him enough to attempt to murder his own girlfriend. The whole conversation is full of lies (he sure as hell doesn't want Shirou to actually succeed in killing her, and he's not asking him to do so because of the danger she poses to other people), so why not that specific part of it?

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:

"Reaching 'Akasha'. There is no greater purpose than this to us Tōsaka. But, sadly, the Einsberns and Matōs, who once shared the same motive, have lost track of it to more worldly matters, and have now totally forgotten their original intention. I won't even mention how they have invited four Masters from the outside, as well. They want the Grail for their despicable lust and nothing else."


He did know the Matou weren't really on the magus bandwagon and even castigates the other family's desire for things outside of Akasha. It stands to prove that while he might not have had all the facts, he was certainly aware they were not in it for the original magus goal. And sending her away was supposedly because some people would take her away as an experiment due to not having a House's 'protection', so it's not like it's unheard of for magi to use extra 'material' as they see fit.

Plus Zouken hasn't ever given away his Crest to anyone in all the years he's lived, the bloodline is rapidly deteriorating, and the family who shunned apprentices for centuries is perfectly okay with taking an outsider's child all of a sudden. Very odd.

Well, all that proves is that he's an idiot.

It's pretty explicit elsewhere in Zero that he was acting in what he felt were Sakura's best interests, and that simply doesn't fit with what Zouken said in HF.