Fate/Zero - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[jeroz]

yeah, pretty much how i'd imagined it

pity that there wasn't much descriptions for the anime-only watchers. They probably thought that it's just a few generic dead bodies instead of Art

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by jeroz

yeah, pretty much how i'd imagined it

pity that there wasn't much descriptions for the anime-only watchers. They probably thought that it's just a few generic dead bodies instead of Art

Oh, come on. Guro is art now?

Art for a small minority and disturbing for all the rest.

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Oh, come on. Guro is art now?

Art for a small minority and disturbing for all the rest.

How dare you insult Ryuunosuke's art? Are you even human?!

Well gores in manga doesn't horrify me because it's in black and white and static, but if it is animated in full colours and screams, then yes, I might get nightmares from that Maybe ufotable will take a step further than the manga when concerning the gores.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Oh, come on. Guro is art now?

Art for a small minority and disturbing for all the rest.

Art, not pop. As any form of art it is hard for the masses to appreciate, and need popularized off-shots, like Hollywood films for cinema.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Art, not pop. As any form of art it is hard for the masses to appreciate, and need popularized off-shots, like Hollywood films for cinema.

Indeed. Only a select few can comprehend true beauty and harmony. To the vast majority of philistines beauty is nothing but a target for destruction.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Oh, come on. Guro is art now?

Art for a small minority and disturbing for all the rest.

Gore and violent imagery is art if it's meant to elicit an emotional response. Often it's point is in being disturbing to the audience.

[Rethice]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

If Saber's hand was healed she could probably annihilate that entire summon with Caster. Excalibur is an anti-castle NP after all.

What are you basing that on?

Her hand is like that because she lost to Lancer, fair and square.

She is not the strongest servant, never has been. She just has "Main Character" powers.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Indeed. Only a select few can comprehend true beauty and harmony. To the vast majority of philistines beauty is nothing but a target for destruction.

Spoiler:

Nice idea, I was wondering with what to replace Astaroth@Haganai in Facebook, and Cater/Zero seems to reflect my avatar there (nonetheless as an avatar) perfectly

Now on the subject, the vast majority of philistines begin by ignoring and discarding, move to being annoyed and try to counter, to inevitably end up burning and destroying... it is the philosophical basis of their fundamental societal structures that manifest as theology and abrahamic-imposed morality.

Thus implyeth Caster, if I take out of the last episode's context

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Rethice

What are you basing that on?

Her hand is like that because she lost to Lancer, fair and square.

She is not the strongest servant, never has been. She just has "Main Character" powers.

This is true, she's no longer the main character in Hollow Ataraxia and all plot armors fade away.

Saber is the strongest class overall (by stats), but Arthuria is not the strongest Servant.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Thess

This is true, she's no longer the main character in Hollow Ataraxia and all plot armors fade away.

Saber is the strongest class overall (by stats), but Arthuria is not the strongest Servant.

You know, I have wondered about that. Isn't Berserker the strongest class stats wise? Obviously using Berserker is incredibly dangerous, but it still stands.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Rethice

What are you basing that on?

Excalibur is an A++ anti-fortress NP, that's what he's basing that on

Her hand is like that because she lost to Lancer, fair and square.

She is not the strongest servant, never has been. She just has "Main Character" powers.

and that has absolutely nothing to do with what he said...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Rethice

She is not the strongest servant, never has been. She just has "Main Character" powers.

That's funny because I personally hold the opposite opinion: That she is the strongest servant but is always held back due to plot demands (By either lacking a good master or lacking Avalon).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's funny because I personally hold the opposite opinion: That she is the strongest servant but is always held back due to plot demands (By either lacking a good master or lacking Avalon).

Strongest Servant is serious Gil, this is straight form Nasu the Overgod of Type-Moon Universe

[Haak]

Citation needed. DX

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Haak

Citation needed.

i don't have it, go ask in the game discussion.

[hoarfrost]

Spoiler for I don't think it counts as a spoiler since we all know Gil is hax by now, but:

I don't have the source, but it's an interview (frequently cited in Beast's Lair) where Nasu says that Gil's power could end the grail war in one night if he went all out from the start. That plus a reading of FSN demonstrates that he is virtually unbeatable by servants at his best, in terms of raw output.

[Kagayaki]

I think what Haak was saying was that Saber + Avalon could beat Gil, which is arguably true.

[Haak]

Spoiler for off topic:

Hell I could see why Nasu would say Gil would own everyone if he went serious from the get go but only because Saber wouldn't have a good master/have avalon at that point in time...

Anyway, I never got round to giving my impressions on this episode.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

First of all, comparing F/Z with Rakkyou is baseless, not only the adaption had different format (26x20-minute TV episodes vs. 8 variable length movies), and most importantly different structure (linear vs. unordered chronologically) and scope (10-15 main characters vs. 2 developed through 5 antagonists).

I can't believe the pacing of KnK was compared favourable to Fate Zero. The pacing of KnK is freaking atrocious! Well each film had decent pacing (except for the first film) but as an entire series...

It's not the pacing that makes the dialogue the problem. It's simply a matter of perspective. Some guys simply want a little less conversation and a little more action. Imo I think they wouldn't have a problem with the dialogue if they were as invested in the characters as we are to begin with. I can't be entirely sure but it wouldn't surprise me if all those that consider the dialogue excessive haven't played the game or aren't type moon fans. So it's only natural really.

Also it might be the censoring, but deRais and Uryuu are very simplistic as villains. Nitro+ and Gen have written way better insane, controversial, and antipathetic characters... for 2011 examples... Kyubee and Moeka. Still I find it also simplistic to be in the center of bad criticism because they are "evil", instead of not being well written.

When i first read Uryuu, I found him pretty generic too but deRais being obsessed with Saber kinda put a good spin on it and I actually found their psychobabble this episode kind of interesting (in a messed up kind a way). Plus there was a certain "musical instrument" scene in the LN that I'm actually glad got censored...

Rin's episode was totally out of place, and the only thing it managed was to make Uryuu more ridiculous.

I'm going to officially consider it the "KnK Fairytale moment" of Fate/Zero.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I think what Haak was saying was that Saber + Avalon could beat Gil, which is arguably true.

It really depends if Gilgamesh can access or not to his full Ea output in power (which as we saw in Ataraxia, is very impressive and nothing like he did in Fate Stay Night, when he was serious out of a whim aka the plot allows him to be). Let's not forget that even if Saber can use Avalon, she has limits in using Excalibur to attack. Under Rin who has more prana than say, Shirou or Kiritsugu, she could only use it twice (this was before Rin also got into a 'contract' with Shirou in UBW) without going immediately bye-bye. Also, IIRC, she can't attack from within Avalon, she has to emerge from it. It's not as if she can spam like Gil seemly does. Anyway, we're getting out topic but all Servants are shafted somehow. Saber's not a special snowflake

Iskandar has Waver as Master who can't provide him all the prana he needs.
Zero Berserker gets Kariya. 'Nuff said. Just think about that for a moment.
Diarmuid has issues with his Master(s) in different ways but we can't discuss due to spoilers.
Gilles is spending the time of his life with Uryuu, but his summon was really awful and didn't provide him the best stats.
Cu Chulainn is arguably the most affected to go at full potential... You know why, he's not allowed to fight at his full potential, he's affected by many geis and constantly trolled by Kotomine who lowered his real stats.
Medea can't use her EX Noble Phantasm either.
Herakles would have fared better if he wasn't a Berserker (Archer Herakles anyone?).
Medusa has worst issues with prana than Saber when she's stuck with Shinji.
Kojiro's lacking a NP, but his technique is ridiculously strong.
Zero Assassin was being used as mere cannon fodder.

I am forgetting anyone?

[Kallen4life]

Spoiler for Saber vs Gil:

Avalon should be able to block Ea regardless of it's output .. that doesn't mean Saber wins, she can't spam Avalon and still has to deal with a full GoB from a PIS-less Gil (since PIS-on Gil does lose - canonically)

full GoB is hundreds (thousands ?) of NP's, a lot of them with special properties, like anti-dragon (Saber has dragon-blood) or anti-regen etc .. he has shields there too, one can block the Dimensional phenomenon (what Zelretch's sword and Assassin swallow strike use)

the NP's should also be able to materialize from all sides at any angles


but she probably has the best shot against Gil, because otherwise Ea should one-shot everything else, full God Hand included I think

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Spoiler for Saber vs Gil:

Avalon should be able to block Ea regardless of it's output .. that doesn't mean Saber wins, she can't spam Avalon and still has to deal with a full GoB from a PIS-less Gil (since PIS-on Gil does lose - canonically)

full GoB is hundreds (thousands ?) of NP's, a lot of them with special properties, like anti-dragon (Saber has dragon-blood) or anti-regen etc .. he has shields there too, one can block the Dimensional phenomenon (what Zelretch's sword and Assassin swallow strike use)

the NP's should also be able to materialize from all sides at any angles

but she probably has the best shot against Gil, because otherwise Ea should one-shot everything else, full God Hand included I think

Spoiler for Saber vs Gil:

If Gil isn't piss off and is actually serious, I don't see how she'll win (unless she gets ahold of LancerEnkidu and straps him as shield lol). All he has to do is wait for her to come out hiding from Avalon. He can attack her from range, but she can't unless she does Excaliblast and that will cost her...

Zero Berserker might have a good shot too (he's a better fighter than Arthuria) if he had a good Master or Herakles as Archer.

Although the Apocrypha and Extra Servants are pretty hax too... if you want to consider them.