[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by witchfan

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
There are 17 people.

I would like to claim that Kanon was present in the Rokkenjima of EPs 5-7, but not 1-4. If we assume Erika is talking about EP6, there is no contradiction in her claim. If we then assume Battler and Beatrice are talking about the first four episodes, the meaning of this becomes clear.

There are only two logical deductions about Erika's red. It either refers to her being alive in episode 6 and nowhere else and her having no identity, or...

This ridiculous theory:

It has been said that there are 17 people even after Erika is added to the equation, however if Shkanon is true, there are only 16 people. Therefore, another character must exist in the island. That character cannot be someone we haven't been introduced to yet. Kinzo is dead at the start of all games, so he doesn't count.

It has been shown during episodes 5 and 6 that Erika is someone who is not one of the original 18, and can move independetly from them.

Knox and Dine say that no new character is allowed to be introduced after a certain point, so Erika couldn't be the killer if she was a new character, and yet she killed someone in episode 6.

Dlanor has said in red that someone introduced in the fifth game can't be the culprit, yet Erika was the culprit in episode 6.

The only logical conclusion is that Erika is someone who was introduced before episode 5.

By process of elimination, the only person who can be that mysterious 17th person who has been introduced, can be Erika, and has no alibi for any crimes, is no one other than...

THE BOAT CAPTAIN

That's right. The boat captain is Erika.

It explains everything. Erika's origin story about her ship sinking because of the storm makes sense. Who has been foreshadowed to own a boat?

THE BOAT CAPTAIN.

Who is the only character in episode 1 to be introduced yet has no alibi for the killings?

THE BOAT CAPTAIN.

Now, episode 6 said that the legends have been affecting fishermen who go near Ushiromiya. They have been losing their jobs because of it.

Maybe a certain boat captain didn't like that.

Not just that, but he was also said to be around for a long time and be employed by Kinzo. He had to know about Kinzo's death. Since Kinzo died, he is no longer employed by Kinzo, and therefore not a servant.

His motive is revenge against the Ushiromiya family for ruining local fishermen with that stupid Beatrice legend and for hiding the death of his honorable friend, Ushiromiya Kinzo.

He knew about the bomb because he has been employed by Kinzo for a long time and he has been around the place for 'decades' as he says. Therefore it's not a stretch to assume that he might have noticed something wrong with Rokkenjima and found the gold, even while Kinzo himself wasn't there.

The games were all a fake murder game by Shannon, having decided that she would marry whichever of the 3 cousins solved it and understood her heart. But the evil boat captain took advantage of that situation and killed them for real.

Episode 6 confirms that, once we assume that Kawabata=Erika.

This also explains why Battler says that everyone was good. They really were. Everyone of the original 18 was a good person. But Kawabata wasn't. Evil son of a bitch.

At the end of everything, he even brought Ange over to Rokkenjima one more time. Now, Amakusa is Battler. We have been over this. So why would he kill her? He didn't.

KAWABATA DID.

KAWABATA. DID. EVERYTHING.

...I'm exaggerating, but my point is that the Erika will just give you headaches if you think about it too much.

[Kirroha]

^ I saw that theory on another forum last time, but never got the chance to comment on it:

BEST. THEORY. EVER. (since small bombs of course.)

[AuraTwilight]

I think that in order to avoid confusion it would be better to make it clear what is

1) a fact supported by evidence
2) your theory
3) a wild guess


It's already clear enough that you tend to state your theories as if they were established facts but at the very least

Ah, a bad habit of mine, I apologize. I keep forgetting you guys can't see me shrug my shoulders and whatnot. Generally, unless I state "it's a fact that," take for granted that there's an unsaid "I dunno but perhaps,"

"Any servant that directly reports to Kinzo is allowed to wear it?" Where did you get that from?
It was never said in any place why some servants wear the symbol and why some others don't.

It's a direct observation.

If Will was portrayed accurately, he absolutely wouldn't complete the funeral dishonourably just to go home a little bit faster.

There's nothing dishonorable about just outing Shannon as the one who killed Beatrice; it's absolutely true and it doesn't slander her in any way.

I would like to know what these problems are. I'm almost certain the coexistence possibilities I had in mind don't cause any problems, and even solve some.

If Kanon is his own being:

What is the meaning of the Love Duel?
Why does Kanon think he's furniture?
How come Kanon has meta-knowledge like Shannon and Beatrice?
How does the EP6 logic error trick work?
Where the hell does his body keep going?
Why does he regret "Father" giving birth to him like Shannon and Beatrice?

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

[witchfan]

What is the meaning of the Love Duel?
Why does Kanon think he's furniture?
How come Kanon has meta-knowledge like Shannon and Beatrice?
How does the EP6 logic error trick work?
Where the hell does his body keep going?
Why does he regret "Father" giving birth to him like Shannon and Beatrice?

I think I can provide a plausible answer to most of these problems. However, I would like to hear why you think these problems are solved if we assume Shkanon is true. Some of these are even more complex because of Shkanon. The only problems I can see solved are:

How come Kanon has meta-knowledge like Shannon and Beatrice?
Why does he regret "Father" giving birth to him like Shannon and Beatrice?

My answer to the first of these is, Shannon doesn't have meta-knowledge. This is a fictional element of the authored fragments. It makes absolutely no sense for actual Shannon (if such a person even exists) to have meta-knowledge. I have difficulty answering the second because I don't have context - which scene are you referring to?

Aside from these, the following is an ambiguously stated problem which is impossible to answer without more information:

Where the hell does his body keep going? (When? And also, why is this solved by Shkanon?)

Finally, here are the problems which Shkanon definitely does not solve:

How does the EP6 logic error trick work? (Easy. This is actually a problem that's caused /by/ Shkanon.)
What is the meaning of the Love Duel? (What, really? I can form a conjecture with my theory in mind, but I'll need a careful examination of the games to see if it is supported by evidence. Anyway, does Shkanon solve this? If you assume it's a "battle of personalities" you get a whole slew of problems)
Why does Kanon think he's furniture? ("Furniture" could mean many things. Without knowing the definition of it, we can't answer this question.)

And for the heck of it, here are problems created from regular Shkanon (but which, if you don't agree with regular Shkanon, don't necessarily apply):

People with multiple personality disorder are extremely unstable and prone to arbitrary personality changes. How did Yasu keep it hidden from so long? Form her extremely complex plot? "Control" it as she seems to be able to do?
How can a girl convincingly dress as a boy and fool everyone for years?
Why do the reds refer to Shannon and Kanon (and their bodies) as separate people? There are even several contradictions.

[Cao Ni Ma]

EP 1 had him stabbed in the heart with a stake, he later pulls it out before collapsing. He didn't commit suicide and no one was capable of killing him, so he aint dead. No need for Shkanon in this case. But if Shkanon doesn't exist then how did Kanon trick Maria later? Did he just act like Beatrice and got her to play along?

EP2 had him in the same room as Jessica, he was killed in that room. The only possible suspects would be Yasu if Shkanon exists or Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda or Kanon himself with a name trick. If not culprits then as accomplices. If Shkanon doesn't exist then you have to make the body disappear by having it move. So stuck between a rock and a hard place, both answers are taboo.

EP3 First twilight. Another problem, closed room chain. You either have one of them survive and complete the chain or you have the murders occur after its no longer a closed room chain. If Shkanon exists then you have to have Shannon switch clothing mid investigation to hide in the chapel, the chapel must also have a way to lock itself from the inside and the adults must be fooled not only once but twice for the fake death scenes. Possible if one of the adults is in it and is the person conducting the body checks. If Shkanon doesn't exist then you have to trick the adults only once, but then you run into the problem of actually being declared dead with red, only possible answer for that would be a name trick. Second case would mean that one of the adults went ahead and killed them afterwards, we've disused the improbabilities of this already.


EP4 had him die and, he was the ninth victim and was the first in Kyrie's group to die. If Shkanon exists then its simple, he can die whenever Yasu wants. If Shkanon doesnt exist then you have to make his body disappear.

So for Shannon and Kanon to be different people then you would need a form of name trick to dodge the red. Its easier to say they died and have them come back than say Rudolph or Kyrie as their names aren't really their names. Just names given to the furniture that serves the Ushiromiya's, it still doesnt taste right though.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

EP4 had him die and, he was the ninth victim and was the first in Kyrie's group to die. If Shkanon exists then its simple, he can die whenever Yasu wants. If Shkanon doesnt exist then you have to make his body disappear.

He can't die whenever Yasu wants, unless you actually assume all discussions about the death of Kanon are actually discussions about the convenient death of an imaginary friend and the convenient appearance of his imaginary corpse. In any case, this is the only problematic red I could find:

In short, he was the 9th victim.

All others problems are just caused because you didn't understand my proposition. Kanon wasn't alive by the time of the crime in EPs 1-4.

As for this red... I'm not sure, really. I'll have to think about it. Two points of interest, however: "he" doesn't have to refer to Kanon, and "9th victim" is undefined (it doesn't necessarily mean he was the 9th person to die during the crime).

[delita-umw-]

Just curious but why does Kanon have to be the one to trick Maria in episode 1? Didn't the trial between Will and Claire essentially confirm that Shanon was just faking her death in the first twilight therefore allowing Shanon to pretend to Beatrice?

[Cao Ni Ma]

You mean he was never there? As in never in Rokkenjima during the events in EP1-4? Or not there during the crimes that involved him? You lost me

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by delita-umw-

Just curious but why does Kanon have to be the one to trick Maria in episode 1? Didn't the trial between Will and Claire essentially confirm that Shanon was just faking her death in the first twilight therefore allowing Shanon to pretend to Beatrice?

Then Shannon and Kanon would both be alive and they both would be culprits and accomplices. Unless Shannon survived and was the one that killed Kanon, that be an amazing twist.

[AuraTwilight]

My answer to the first of these is, Shannon doesn't have meta-knowledge. This is a fictional element of the authored fragments. It makes absolutely no sense for actual Shannon (if such a person even exists) to have meta-knowledge. I have difficulty answering the second because I don't have context - which scene are you referring to?

Well, obviously, Shannon doesn't ACTUALLY Have Meta-Knowledge, but in the context of the fictional story, why are Shannon and Kanon continually given the exact same knowledge base as Beatrice?

Shannon and Kanon both ask why "Father" gave birthto them in the Love Duel. The only person called Father like that in the episode is Battler. Make of it what you will.

Aside from these, the following is an ambiguously stated problem which is impossible to answer without more information:

Where the hell does his body keep going? (When? And also, why is this solved by Shkanon?)

Illusion to Illusion. Illusions do not leave corpses. Kanon is an illusion that does not leave a corpse, according to Will. How does this work if Kanon is his own separate existence?

How does the EP6 logic error trick work? (Easy. This is actually a problem that's caused /by/ Shkanon.)

How? The Logic Error problem is essentially that Kanon slipped out of a window he's not supposed to be able to exit, goes into a closet, then magically vanishes from the closet. The first problem vanishes if Shannon exits her window, then becomes Kanon, then enters the closet and either dies, or stops being Kanon.

What is the meaning of the Love Duel? (What, really? I can form a conjecture with my theory in mind, but I'll need a careful examination of the games to see if it is supported by evidence. Anyway, does Shkanon solve this? If you assume it's a "battle of personalities" you get a whole slew of problems)

The Love Duel is Yasu being unable to determine which of the cousins she wants to be with. Battler is dropped early, but George and and presumably Jessica continue to be options she's weighing, as the battle in her heart does not stop when Battler stops being an option. If Kanon is his own physical existence, then what do we do about this?

Why does Kanon think he's furniture? ("Furniture" could mean many things. Without knowing the definition of it, we can't answer this question.)

According to Yasu/Shannon, she is furniture because of her injury, and thus cannot love. She then gives this definition to her fictional characters. If we are stating that Kanon is not a fictional character or Yasu, why does he consider himself furniture, and why does he choose that word specifically? Did Shannon teach it to him? Why does he think he is furniture and not a human? (Furniture is consistently described as someone who cannot love).

Also, if Kanon and Shannon are separate, why does Shannon need to absorb Kanon's part-soul in order to become full? Beatrice and Shannon are definitely the same person. If Kanon is a separate person, why isn't Jessica getting her soul absorbed too?

People with multiple personality disorder are extremely unstable and prone to arbitrary personality changes. How did Yasu keep it hidden from so long? Form her extremely complex plot? "Control" it as she seems to be able to do?

Nothing states Yasu has multiple personalities. She's just someone acting multiple parts, complete with having pretend conversations with herself. People with Multiple Personality are not able to communicate with their other selves.

How can a girl convincingly dress as a boy and fool everyone for years?

Kanon is described as a fairly underdeveloped, petite young man, and people take them for siblings anyway. Add on that two thirds of the cast only see Kanon and Shannon once or twice a year, and the rest are in on it, stupid, or talk to dead people, well...it's not that much of a stretch.

Why do the reds refer to Shannon and Kanon (and their bodies) as separate people? There are even several contradictions.

for the same reason Reds can be made about entirely fictional characters and events. The gameboards are fictions Yasu wrote, they never happened. But Reds are made about them anyway. Therefore, Shannon and Kanon can be treated as multiple people because it is a fiction accepted by everyone that they are separate people, even if this is not true.

Snape killed Dumbledore.

This is a true statement, even though this event never happened.

Shatner and Captain Kirk are separate people.

Although Kirk is a character played by Shatner, they are still treated as different entities by pretty much everyone because Captain Kirk is, although fictional, his own person with his own personality, likes and dislikes, history, and etcetera.

[Moogleking]

Genji also refers to himself as furniture. I wonder why that is?

I found the logic error in ep6 to be one of the most interesting puzzles in all the games. Since I can't accept Erika is a random person that landed on the island (or the boat captain, as awesome as that theory is) that murders everyone, I have to place her as another person from our 17.

The setup in the game appears to be that with the kids all faking death, the adults are trying to get Genji to spill the beans about the gold. That's why they have 2 guns and big Gohda in the room with him. In the other room is Hideyoshi with a gun watching George, Kuma, Shannon, and Nanjo.

2 bodies enter Battler's room, and Battler leaves. The 2 people are whoever is playing Erika, and Kanon.

The setup for who is in the rooms is actually pretty interesting.
"<Good>. I'll continue. 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'"
"Acknowledged."
Then Erika asks him to repeat everyone else is in the other room.
"If Battler had been told to repeat 'Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room', he would probably have responded with the red without thinking too much about it."

Whoa whoa. Wait a second Battler. You just said Shannon was in one room, and you would have no problem saying Kanon is in the other room!?!??!?

I actually just found this, so I'm going to stop here to see what people think about this last line.

[Kirroha]

It's in white, so nobody really thinks too much about it.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Genji also refers to himself as furniture. I wonder why that is?

He's homosexual. The truth is, he loved Kinzo, but Kinzo was a straight man. Thus, since Genji was a man and Kinzo wasn't into men, Genji was "unable to love". Therefore, he's Furniture.

[Vylen]

Genji doesn't have to be homosexual to be called Furniture. It's perfectly possible that Genji may have had an "accident" that renders him "unable to love" - it could also just be his old age

[Jan-Poo]

Well I don't think that "unable to love" is the definition of furniture. I think it's more like:

Furniture = less than human


And of course if you are less than human you aren't qualified to love so we still end there... but yeah...

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well I don't think that "unable to love" is the definition of furniture. I think it's more like:

Furniture = less than human


And of course if you are less than human you aren't qualified to love so we still end there... but yeah...

He could be a eunuch. Or whatever the spelling is. You know what I mean.

[Moogleking]

Reading back through this ep6 stuff is pretty interesting:
"At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!"
Now that it had been limited to five people, any leeway for Kanon hiding there had been completely denied.
Since only those to whom those five names referred existed within the room, Erika couldn't even make a new theory by suggesting that one person held two names, so that the five names referred to only four people, and allowing for Kanon to sneak in even though his name wasn't on the list.

How exactly are we saying Shannon is the same person as Kanon?

[Sherringford]

I always got the impression that Kinzo saved Genji's life. I think that Genji will be important to the plot.

Kinzo calls Nanjo and Genji his only true friends. So Kumasawa is just a servant. Hey maybe Kumasawa is the true Beatrice!
...Yeah no.

But thing is, Nanjo's friendship was explained. Genji's was not. I still think there is something important about that.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

I always got the impression that Kinzo saved Genji's life. I think that Genji will be important to the plot.

Kinzo calls Nanjo and Genji his only true friends. So Kumasawa is just a servant. Hey maybe Kumasawa is the true Beatrice!
...Yeah no.

But thing is, Nanjo's friendship was explained. Genji's was not. I still think there is something important about that.

Well...Genji was also unaccounted for in the Episode 7 Tea Party. If we apply the "Battler survived because he wasnt explicitly stated to be murdered" logic to those who's corpses werent confirmed as well...Then Genji surviving isnt unreasonable.

Unlike practically everyone else, he likely was in a position to know about the bomb, too.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Reading back through this ep6 stuff is pretty interesting:
"At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!"
Now that it had been limited to five people, any leeway for Kanon hiding there had been completely denied.
Since only those to whom those five names referred existed within the room, Erika couldn't even make a new theory by suggesting that one person held two names, so that the five names referred to only four people, and allowing for Kanon to sneak in even though his name wasn't on the list.

How exactly are we saying Shannon is the same person as Kanon?

"No one existed except" that means that Kanon was still Kanon at that time. He turned into Shannon after that.

As for "can only use their own names" that just means that they can only use names that belong to themselves and no one else.

Both Shannon and Kanon belong to Yasu.