Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[TurinTurambar200]

If you look at the extent to which the world is being effected by policies of the OECD nations of the world right now, that would be why you're learning about their histories. Let me ask you, how much are you learning about sub-saharan Afrian contemporary history? My bet would be not much.

Similarly, since I had access to many of my old High School's text books, if I look through the ones from back in the 50s, there will be little on the Middle East. However, in the 60s and 70s, they suddenly increase in information. The reason? OPEC.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by TurinTurambar200

If you look at the extent to which the world is being effected by policies of the OECD nations of the world right now, that would be why you're learning about their histories. Let me ask you, how much are you learning about sub-saharan Afrian contemporary history? My bet would be not much.

You got a point there, I concede.

[Wen]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

One thing I've learned from the sub is that Louise is an exchange student from the AEU. Oh and that she doesn't care about what happened in Moralia because she's never been there. All she wants is Saji to buy her clothes. Wow!!! If that's not being a total self-centered callous bitch then I don't know what is. Perfect Gundam Pilot material. At least she has big tits for not undergoing breast reduction surgery (yet) like a lot French girls do. I'm guessing Louise is French.

I think she's born in Spain (check wikipedia).

[Papaya]

How is not caring being a bitch?
The majority of people don't care about anything that happens beyond the local (or, in more developed countries, national) level, and the majority of people in the world that do care don't know what's going on at the local level.

She's not a bitch. She's just your average girl. Big deal. Obviously, in just about every Gundam series out there, we'll have characters who are living a normal life but are sucked into the war.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

He IS interested in ending human suffering. Tieria merely believe, like the CB organisation as a whole, that it is worth generating suffering now, so that the "future generations" can live without suffering later.

It is the classic "for the greater good" argument. Find a great enough cause to fight for, and all of a sudden you would have the perfect excuse to commit genocide.

The thing here is that Tieria hasn't yet shown that he cares about the "greater good" either. Then again, I'm not really complaining about his characterization; I'm merely pointing out that this aspect of his character deserves exploring.

Originally Posted by lubczyk

One thing I've learned from the sub is that Louise is an exchange student from the AEU. Oh and that she doesn't care about what happened in Moralia because she's never been there. All she wants is Saji to buy her clothes. Wow!!! If that's not being a total self-centered callous bitch then I don't know what is.

Unfortunately, this is an altogether familiar reaction. People have a great tendency to simply not care about things that don't directly impact their lives. It's not restricted to teenagers or any particular group.

Originally Posted by TurinTurambar200

If you look at the extent to which the world is being effected by policies of the OECD nations of the world right now, that would be why you're learning about their histories. Let me ask you, how much are you learning about sub-saharan Afrian contemporary history? My bet would be not much.

Given the nationalities involved, it'd be more apt to compare it to how much an American teenager would care about an upsurge in guerilla activity in Nicaragua, killing a couple hundred people. Chances are that it'll be "not much". It's really too bad, since we can all stand to at least be aware of current events.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by Wen

I think she's born in Spain (check wikipedia).

Wow, Spanish. Saji sure has a great find. Too bad Saji doesn't seem to fully appreciate what a nice gal he's got and vise versa.

Also Saji and Lousie have too much air time not to have some larger role in the story later on in the series. That's the vibe I'm getting.

[TurinTurambar200]

@4Tran

Unfortunately, reality is a cruel mistress.

I'll be honest. While I do keep up with the current events, I can't say I "care" about them, as long as they're not within my field of studies (international political economy and international relations in China)

[edf91]

I find it interesting that nobody has bring up the point I think various people in CB have already hinted at - their main "mission" is to bring out the "evil" in the world, and apparently, it is working - the terrorist acts certainly seems like an reaction from the "evil" fraction. Yes, CB doesn't gain anything from any of the conflicts, including Moralia, but I think it certainly disrupt various people's "current" plan. Maybe they are going the Seed Destiny thing again (Logos?). This make some sense to me, as the current three major powers do not seems to be "evil" per say - greedy, maybe, but not really that bad/evil either.

[Marsala]

I have a feeling that Veda has some long, unbelievably complicated plan that relies on the Gundam Meisters' personalities and their reactions to the changing situation in the world. For example, the situation in Azadistan with Marrina could turn Setsuna against Celestial Being which then triggers a split in the Gundam Meisters and somehow leads to a near-total war between the three factions that is miraculously resolved in a way that unifies the world... and it was all part of Veda's plan from the beginning, i.e. the Xanatos Roulette.

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by dreamless

well, we practically know nil about the Celestial Being's intentions. According to that US professor, the Celestial Being is apparently seeking some grand suicide.

Maybe Veda is actually devil/dark gundam...

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

For the most part, poor writing. Much of what they showed wouldn't work without writers' fiat and then there's all the scenes with people-looking-at-a-TV-screen-while-saying-"profound"-things.

The writing is fine. It IS a fiction after all, and they did most of that for dramatic effect, not necessarily because it is the most realistic. Looking back, Gundam has been more about 'characters looking at screen saying profound things' just as much as it was about the mecha action. Char himself was modeled on such melodrama and pomp. And that made him one of the greatest anime characters ever conceived.

Understanding their stances isn't that big a deal; it's much more intriguing to determine who is correct, or if neither are correct.

Please get off of your high horse. Did I say it was a big deal? No. "much more intriguing"? I don't even care who is correct or not. Just watching the conflict is the fun part. If we knew who was right and who was wrong, that takes all the fun out of it. I mean, we'll only come close to guessing whichever was the correct action in the very end with all the retrospect on the past actions. That is typically how it works for our history as well. We look back on it and ascertain later.

This sort of begs the question of what Tieria is doing in Celestial Being to begin with.

Um. No it doesn't. Tieria is obviously a very skilled soldier who knows how to execute his mission. So far, Tieria has never had ONE mishap according to Celestial Being's mission parameters. The others have broken a taboo here and there. Tieria? Not once. Out of all the Gundam Meisters so far, it seems Tieria belongs there the most. Sort of like Wu Fei even with his fiery temperament and a near reckless devotion to his mission in Gundam Wing.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

He IS interested in ending human suffering. Tieria merely believe, like the CB organisation as a whole, that it is worth generating suffering now, so that the "future generations" can live without suffering later.

It is the classic "for the greater good" argument. Find a great enough cause to fight for, and all of a sudden you would have the perfect excuse to commit genocide. As far as Tieria is concerned, he don't care about anyone who is currently alive. They can all be thrown on the sacrificial altar.

I don't think genocide has to do with it. They don't do it for genocide's sakes but for the MISSION's sakes. It seems to me that Tieria considers such 'genocides' and one sided victories as merely a result of a well thought plan and as for all civilians, it's merely collateral damage. I seriously doubt Celestial Being is aiming for outright massacre ala Dullindal in Gundam Seed Destiny or Char in MSG.

[dagr81]

off topic, where is the red gundam? i mean realy no red?

on topic
I don't think CB will go dullindal at all, but when your think about it with this mush power, there must be someone on CB that may just turn sides

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by edf91

I find it interesting that nobody has bring up the point I think various people in CB have already hinted at - their main "mission" is to bring out the "evil" in the world, and apparently, it is working - the terrorist acts certainly seems like an reaction from the "evil" fraction.

Part of the problem is that while such a plan looks ludicrous, we don't really know anything about Celestial Being other than what the rank and file proclaim. When we get more information, it'll be more fruitful to comment on this aspect of the story.

Originally Posted by edf91

Yes, CB doesn't gain anything from any of the conflicts, including Moralia, but I think it certainly disrupt various people's "current" plan.

Far from disrupting anyone's plans, it actually furthered both the AEU and PMC's overall strategies. Indeed, the only group seemingly harmed by the attack is Celestial Being itself.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

The writing is fine. It IS a fiction after all, and they did most of that for dramatic effect, not necessarily because it is the most realistic. Looking back, Gundam has been more about 'characters looking at screen saying profound things' just as much as it was about the mecha action. Char himself was modeled on such melodrama and pomp. And that made him one of the greatest anime characters ever conceived.

Good writing doesn't necessarily have to be realistic, but it still has to fulfill some minimum criteria. I'm afraid that the narrative of just about all the other Gundam shows is pretty poor, so they're not a very good basis for comparison. The main difference is that, so far, Gundam 00 relies on a compelling narrative much more than the others have, so it's more vulnerable to writing issues than the other shows are.

Moreover, Char's writing ranges from fairly decent to outright abyssmal, so he's not a very good example to make a comparison with.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Please get off of your high horse. Did I say it was a big deal? No. "much more intriguing"? I don't even care who is correct or not. Just watching the conflict is the fun part. If we knew who was right and who was wrong, that takes all the fun out of it. I mean, we'll only come close to guessing whichever was the correct action in the very end with all the retrospect on the past actions. That is typically how it works for our history as well. We look back on it and ascertain later.

Why the hostility? I merely pointed out that it's more intriguing to think about the dichotomy of opinions than it is to merely note it. There's no need for you to share my feelings on the matter.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Um. No it doesn't. Tieria is obviously a very skilled soldier who knows how to execute his mission.

The reason I said it begs the question is that Tieria's supposed overarching goal seems to be in conflict with his depicted behavior, so what does your statement have to do with mine?



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by TurinTurambar200

I'll be honest. While I do keep up with the current events, I can't say I "care" about them, as long as they're not within my field of studies (international political economy and international relations in China)

Unfortunately, this is too true. In a hectic life, it's difficult enough to keep track of what's going on, pay any great amount of attention to more remote events is all but impossible.

Originally Posted by dagr81

off topic, where is the red gundam? i mean realy no red?

Char's mobile suits in Mobile Suit Gundam were sort of a pinkish-red, so the Tieren Taozi may qualify.

[Papaya]

Well, Astraea is red too. Maybe we'll catch a glimpse of it in the anime.
After all, it even wears a mask!

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Damn, I guess people missed my earlier question....

Did Setsuna getting angry have anything to do with the Gundam powering up, or was that just some artistic expressionism? It seemed pertinent...

No, Setsuna just powered up his GN drive, thus allowing his GN blade to cut better.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're sort of illustrating my point. If they were to introduce something like fusion power, then it would be a major change that will overshadow much of the setting. Because of this, it's only fair to do so if the development of the technology were shown from the very beginning, otherwise it'll serve to overthrow the rest of the story.

Yes, and for that reason, it COULD happen in the future (like say, next season?)

[edf91]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Part of the problem is that while such a plan looks ludicrous, we don't really know anything about Celestial Being other than what the rank and file proclaim. When we get more information, it'll be more fruitful to comment on this aspect of the story.

Maybe it's all those weird novels I read before, but this type of "story" has been done before - must be an Asian thing

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Far from disrupting anyone's plans, it actually furthered both the AEU and PMC's overall strategies. Indeed, the only group seemingly harmed by the attack is Celestial Being itself.

But it does - it increase AEU's "standing" - before, AEU is behind Union and HRL in terms of military power and technology standing, but now it is going to change, due to AEU getting a "boost". Probably need to refresh my earlier viewing of Gundam 00, but if they were stressing the part about Zero sum game, then it might not be a zero sum game anymore, since the balance of power has changed slightly. With the status-quo "broken," there bound to be interesting things happening, and maybe this is what CB is looking for.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

It's going to be interesting to see how Marina fits into all this. There's a bit of a "healing hands" vibe around her, though given the age difference, she may end up more like a mother figure to Setsuna (I wonder if she's taller than him?). If the OP is any guide, it seems more like she gives him hope about the world - restores his humanity, sort of thing.

from what I've seen in some character design sheet, Marina is quite a bit taller than Setsuna... actually everyone is taller than Setsuna, he's even shorter than the 14-year-old loli Felt

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by dreamless

actually everyone is taller than Setsuna, he's even shorter than the 14-year-old loli Felt

Given that Setsuna grew up in a war-torn Kurdistan, it's not funny that he's short.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Kohitsuji

Off the top of my head, the only good female pilot was Lucrezia Noin in Gundam Wing. The females from GS and GSD were all pretty crappy. And really, can you really see someone like Louise piloting a Gundam?

After Fa Yuiry got to pilot the Zeta?

Sayla Mass, Karen Joshua, Christina Mackenzie, Emma Sheen and Four Murasame were all competant Gundam pilots. Aina Saharin and Monique Cadillac both did well considering they were flying for Zeon. Reccoa Londe did well for AEUG even if she went down hill after Scirroco stroked her ear.

Cecily Fairchild didn't do so badly either.

[Revolutionist]

After reading up a bit on Terrorism and Terrorists I think it's a bit unfair to call Celestial Being a terrorist organization.

They are unique in the sense that while they don't target civilians specifically, they have no regards for them. If civilians die they could care less as long as they accomplish their goals, however they won't instill fear in the populace by force (directly that is). Their actions though tell another story... It's obvious if you've been following the show that the threat of "intervention" has even scared real terrorists.
So in a sense CB through their indiscriminate attacks has people scared to do anything that might anger the Gundams.

In the other hand CB is a paramilitary organization that wages unconventional warfare. Btw, terrorists rarely call themselves terrorists, but rather freedom fighters, paramilitary, guerillas, jihadists or such better sounding words. In the end though they all pretty much do the same things.

In conventional warfare, the enemy is clearly defined, usually it's one or more states fighting one another over clear terms. Country A invades Country B in order to procure a naval port to increase its trade and boost their economy. Country A engages Country B's defending army in order to destroy and limit Country B's ability to engage in conventional warfare. If B is unable to wage war, it will have no choice but to surrender, and A will have accomplished its objective.

In unconventional warfare the enemy is not a nation with a head of state that you can reach out to and reason with, and try to avoid conflict. The unconventional fighter does not wear an uniform, hides among civilian population attacks both civilian and military targets in order to achieve an abstract, unrealistic goal. These guys usually get labed terrorists because if the world views your actions as wrong, you're a terrorist.

In a scale of 1 to 10, with one being definite terrorist (i.e guys who do car bombs, suicide bombings etc), and 10 being conventional force, I'd say CB is a 4. They engage in conventional warfare, but have terroristic ( is that even a word? lol ) goals. Also, while their goal is noble, they are having the same impact a terrorist would in the world, not to mention that their total disregard for innocent lives is very disturbing.

Mad props to the writes for making such an interesting organization.