Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Gotta admit...gunning down your family for some propaganda is about as stupid as they come

Setsuna clearly believed in this:

I hope you were joking there......

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

I hope you were joking there......

I was both joking and not joking. If you know anything about my posts, I always tell the truth in jest.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I was both joking and not joking. If you know anything about my posts, I always tell the truth in jest.

All right. It's just that propaganda isn't really something to laugh at, in certain situations.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Good writing doesn't necessarily have to be realistic, but it still has to fulfill some minimum criteria. I'm afraid that the narrative of just about all the other Gundam shows is pretty poor, so they're not a very good basis for comparison. The main difference is that, so far, Gundam 00 relies on a compelling narrative much more than the others have, so it's more vulnerable to writing issues than the other shows are.

Moreover, Char's writing ranges from fairly decent to outright abyssmal, so he's not a very good example to make a comparison with.

But that's the thing. This is by far one of the better forms of writing seen on a Gundam show in like... Ever. So it IS a good comparison. I've been massively entertained even by Gundam Wing and G Gundam, so I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm not saying the writing is perfect or the world situation all that clear (they're spending a LOT of time with the exposition), but it's definitely on the bad side I'd say.

I merely pointed out that it's more intriguing to think about the dichotomy of opinions than it is to merely note it. There's no need for you to share my feelings on the matter.

You said specifically that it's more about discerning what is right or wrong. I disagreed in that I don't believe we even need to see that side until the end game. After all, the drama is the utmost concern for me. Whether to side by a character or not is more a matter of personal preference later on.

The reason I said it begs the question is that Tieria's supposed overarching goal seems to be in conflict with his depicted behavior, so what does your statement have to do with mine?)

Um. Everything? Because I honestly do not see any 'conflict' in his behavior. He comes off as rough and abrasive, but there is no conflict between his behavior and his belief in the mission. If you meet an asshole who acts like a hooligan but still sticks to his/her philosophy, even if that person may not be too likable, it doesn't mean they don't abide by their philosophy.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Which part of "I killed my parents for this man, but his "Holy War" was one huge lie" wasn't worth being angry about?

For that matter, what's so childish about hating someone who betrayed you? Being an adult doesn't mean being a heartless robot.

I got a lot of Shinn style angst just bursting out in that one scene. I definitely agree that his angst is definitely legitimate. He basically has two people to blame. Soran/Setsuna and Sarges. It's like TWO huge rocks on a person's ego. It's actually commendable that Setsuna made it so far.

[Honey_and_Cleaver]

Originally Posted by Papaya

Are you also someone who blames the rape victim for the rape?
First of all, it's VERY easy to influence children. How many kids here believed in Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? Easter bunny?
If you indoctrinate a child from birth, it's extremely easy to manipulate him to do things further on.

Do you blame someone who rape themselves, or rape their own family member because he listens to some bad apple. The thing is he needs to feel guilt and learn from this rather than fighting the man he listens to and putting the blame on him for what he is done. Everybody does stupid things, but one has to realize whose fault it is. If you watched Kaiji ep1 ,then you will understand what im talking about. The guy who lies is sure an bad guy,but the one who carry out the lies are the most guilty. I dont think you can survive in court with this kind of testiment.

A child is spared because of its lack of intelligence, how many people still have the ignorance of a child even when theyre adult, some adults still believe in things that still dont exist like taboos,martial codes and all kinds of nonsense.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Do you blame someone who rape themselves, or rape their own family member because he listens to some bad apple. The thing is he needs to feel guilt and learn from this rather than fighting the man he listens to and putting the blame on him for what he is done. Everybody does stupid things, but one has to realize whose fault it is. If you watched Kaiji ep1 ,then you will understand what im talking about. The guy who lies is sure an bad guy,but the one who carry out the lies are the most guilty. I dont think you can survive in court with this kind of testiment.

A child is spared because of its lack of intelligence, how many people still have the ignorance of a child even when theyre adult, some adults still believe in things that still dont exist like taboos,martial codes and all kinds of nonsense.

So... Are you saying Ali is free from blame because it is the fault of the children for them to be conned? If I conned you out of a house and home, is it your fault or my fault that you are now living on the streets?

You are confusing things. Setsuna knows he killed his family. He has to live with it every single day, and that's his punishment. But you are suggesting that the conman who arranged the killing is innocent? Ali demanded that the killings be done! He gave them the weapons!

(p.s. You don't seem to know the difference between civil court and cases of child soldiers... Child soldiers are explicitly illegal by international law, because amongst other things, they could be made to do anything through moral shaping. The child soldiers are always considered victims in ANY court case, and any war-crimes they committed would be considered committed by their adult superior officers.)

[SuperKnuckles]

hehe. "child spared due to lack of intelligence".

Just say that out aloud and see if you can stifle laughter.

Children are plenty smart, but more impressionable than adults. Also, child soldiers typically are raised in desolate places where children feel more hedged into corners of society than perhaps even adults would.

[Kang Seung Jae]

A suggestion: How about making a politics thread for Gundam 00?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

A suggestion: How about making a politics thread for Gundam 00?

I don't see the point yet. The politics in 00 is actually quite clear-cut and repeated a few times in order to drive the information home for the younger audience. The major sources of disagreements came from personal opinions.

By the way, Ali is for all intent and purposes a war-criminal. Setsuna was 10 years old when episode 1 started, which means Ali conscripted children who were clearly outside the age range as described in International Law. Thus Ali is liable for punishment by either life imprisonment or execution.
(interestingly, Setsuna is 16 now, so technically CB is off the hook as the minimum age acceptable for the ICC is 15. Felt is 14, but since she isn't involved directly in hostilities she isn't classified as a soldier.)

As for Setsuna? There is the "United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child"Art. 38, (1989) , which made it clear child soldiers like them should not be imprisoned, but instead be given all the physical and psychological assistant needed to recover and be reintegrated into society. You can't blame children for doing what adults made them do.

[SuperKnuckles]

I wonder if the laws even MATTER at all with Serges. I mean, real life soldiers of fortunes, PMCs and mercenaries do operate on a different legal parameters than most soldiers.

Even if he's put on trial for the most heinous crimes, he's bound to be protected within his organization.

I doubt 00 will raise an issue of such legality at all. It'll be all in the battlefield. That's it.

Need I say Blackwater? I don't need to elaborate.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

I wonder if the laws even MATTER at all with Serges. I mean, real life soldiers of fortunes, PMCs and mercenaries do operate on a different legal parameters than most soldiers.

Even if he's put on trial for the most heinous crimes, he's bound to be protected within his organization.

I doubt 00 will raise an issue of such legality at all. It'll be all in the battlefield. That's it.

Need I say Blackwater? I don't need to elaborate.

It depends on whether Ali was operating under the protection of his organisation 6 years ago. If his war crime was committed back before he joined the mercenary group, then his organisation can't protect him.

The only issue with such cases, is that they are rarely reported. It is assumed that Setsuna is the sole survivor of his group, from what episode 1 had shown. So unless Setsuna made his life-story public, there would be no one who can persecute him.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by qx123

If i were him i will feel so angry that i am so stupid.

I dont think anyone in this thread are so stupid as to do what he has done.

Although I doubt they'd come to this thread since they'd think anime is the creation of devils and anime fans are all damned to eternal suffering in Hell, but there are plenty of people still doing "Honor Killings" in this world to this day, and they believe killing their sister/daughter/mother/etc. is for helping God's battle against Evil.

And I'm sure Setsuna is quite angry at himself already, so what do you propose him to do? jumping off a cliff?

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

The thing is he needs to feel guilt and learn from this rather than fighting the man he listens to and putting the blame on him for what he is done.

I think he already feels the guilt, and he wants to kill the man who manipulated him. I see no problem for Setsuna trying to kill Ali at all.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by dreamless

I think he already feels the guilt, and he wants to kill the man who manipulated him. I see no problem for Setsuna trying to kill Ali at all.

The problem is....that poster hate Setsuna, that's all.

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Do you blame someone who rape themselves, or rape their own family member because he listens to some bad apple. The thing is he needs to feel guilt and learn from this rather than fighting the man he listens to and putting the blame on him for what he is done. Everybody does stupid things, but one has to realize whose fault it is. If you watched Kaiji ep1 ,then you will understand what im talking about. The guy who lies is sure an bad guy,but the one who carry out the lies are the most guilty. I dont think you can survive in court with this kind of testiment.

Rape themselves?
Ain't that fun? Raping other because someone told you so . What kind of reason is that?

Tell me, what should Setsuna do after being betrayed? Feel guilty and what? He's been suffered for his entire life, and now he just want to kill the one who betrayed him, that's bad? Why don't he just pull a knife and stab himself, end this anime already, therefore we won't have someone whining about it anymore. If people can just blame themselves for everything, the world would be better place. You talk as Ali just told Setsuna "go home and kill your parents, then you'll become God's soldier". Brainwashing isn't just about one word. We just don't know how long Ali has pulled this.

Honestly, I think you better shouldn't touch your keyboard when visiting this board. It'll make you looked smarter.

[Sinestra]

I was actually shocked by the content in this episode. To see a glimps of Setsuna's past and what he and the other children had done. This could explain why Setsuna does not actually seem to be living or have any emotions. To come across the man who manipulated you into doing such horrible things of course would be a shock, Warriors of God Huh? Brainwashing the young huh? im not going to get political but we all know what this sounds like I do feel compassion for Setsuna . BUT that does excuse endangering the mission and his teammates by opening Exia's cockpit. The meisters retain an advantage as their identies and technogloy remain top secret. The other problem is that fight was not a draw Setsuna was out matched in skill for this guy to disarm him not once but twice was no fluk.

The terrorist attacks around the world was an interesting move to hamper and C.B. and turn public support aganist them even more. Besides technically yes they are terrorist themselves. Im very interested to see what route they take and also was this predicted just like everything else has? I for one did not foresee that another group would try to hamper them by attacking civilians.

Great episode i think enjoyed this episode more than any other. Plus the ownage of over 500 mobile suits in 2 hours and the capture and surrender of the enemy HQ was impressive.

I am so excited about the next episode i have been waiting for this first meeting between the Princess (I think her name is Marina Ismail) and Sestuna ever since i saw the OP. Im curious to see their relationship will be anything like Heero's and Relena's from Wing or will it be more original than anything else. My guess is eventually Setsuna will find something to beleive in again and want to protect it and the reason will be her.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

The terrorist attacks around the world was an interesting move to hamper and C.B. and turn public support aganist them even more. Besides technically yes they are terrorist themselves. Im very interested to see what route they take and also was this predicted just like everything else has? I for one did not foresee that another group would try to hamper them by attacking civilians.

Still, I don't see how this new wave of terrorist attacks would in any way lower CB's public opinion. For one thing, the civilians being attacked have no way of pressuring CB into protecting them. Unlike governments, CB's continue survival does not require public support or voters. And since when does anyone feel sympathetic towards the cause of someone who just bombed them? Those who are being bombed will curse the bombers, not CB.

The only issue for CB, is that their mandate requires them to respond to a threat to peace. Unlike real governments though, CB can do anything they like without needing to please the media. We shall see if CB's spies are as good as gathering intel on terrorists as they are on infiltrating governments.

[Honey_and_Cleaver]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

The problem is....that poster hate Setsuna, that's all.


Rape themselves?
Ain't that fun? Raping other because someone told you so . What kind of reason is that?

Tell me, what should Setsuna do after being betrayed? Feel guilty and what? He's been suffered for his entire life, and now he just want to kill the one who betrayed him, that's bad? Why don't he just pull a knife and stab himself, end this anime already, therefore we won't have someone whining about it anymore. If people can just blame themselves for everything, the world would be better place. You talk as Ali just told Setsuna "go home and kill your parents, then you'll become God's soldier". Brainwashing isn't just about one word. We just don't know how long Ali has pulled this.

Honestly, I think you better shouldn't touch your keyboard when visiting this board. It'll make you looked smarter.

Now i know where the stupid rep came from, seriously i dont think its worth being personal with you, i also stated before that Ali is to blame,but the greater blame is himself, he can go kill Ali for all i care, after this far, i have liked Setsuna because i thought he knew what was the nature of war and the mockery vision of peace, but after this episode, i feel hes a guilty bum who feels hes a choosen saviour and i dont think thats fun to watch because it sounds pethatic, but hes the hero,means getting more screen time,which is a pain.

Seriously, Lockon Stratos is more suiting to be a hero because he can actually put drama and feelings into the show, Allelujah too. Tiere is pure professional.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Tiere is pure professional.

No, Sergei was a professional, who is worthy of respect from that title. Tieria is just a Psycho. Sergei knows when to value his humanity above his uniform, and break rules in order to do the right thing. Tieria has no humanity at all. I won't be surprised if I find out later that Tieria is an android, as it would explain many, many things...

As for Ali, my quotes off international law completely contradicts your views. Children under 15 who are made to fight by adults are guilty of no crime and are victims, while those who made them fight are liable for capital punishment.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

No, Sergei was a professional, who is worthy of respect from that title. Tieria is just a Psycho. Sergei knows when to value his humanity above his uniform, and break rules in order to do the right thing. Tieria has no humanity at all. I won't be surprised if I find out later that Tieria is an android, as it would explain many, many things...

He didn't break any rules did he?

I mean in dealing with Kyrios, he was right, the civilians safety took precedence along with the fact that he had no weapons on him. It would be suicide to even capture Kyrios at that point. Plus he seems fine right afterwards.

[Honey_and_Cleaver]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

No, Sergei was a professional, who is worthy of respect from that title. Tieria is just a Psycho. Sergei knows when to value his humanity above his uniform, and break rules in order to do the right thing. Tieria has no humanity at all. I won't be surprised if I find out later that Tieria is an android, as it would explain many, many things...

As for Ali, my quotes off international law completely contradicts your views. Children under 15 who are made to fight by adults are guilty of no crime and are victims, while those who made them fight are liable for capital punishment.

Sergei and Graham are professionals, but Tiera is too,but in a different way. Tiera looks like a pyscho,but he has his reasons.

Setsuna is a victim, ok he is a victim, there can be other kinds of victims in wars, if Setsuna had an idea where he had no choice but to do it in order to survive, or he did it because he just listens like a damn fool, that will change my likeness of him in the further episodes. For now, i dont find him interesting anymore.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

He didn't break any rules did he?

I mean in dealing with Kyrios, he was right, the civilians safety took precedence along with the fact that he had no weapons on me. It would be suicide to even capture Kyrios at that point. Plus he seems fine right afterwards.

He left an experimental mobilesuit unsupervised and abandoned his post. The mobilesuit could have been destroyed by Gundams while he was absent. Now, this is an entirely unreasonable complaint, as such his superiors likely cited extraneous circumstances due to the rescue. He might even have been commended.

If Tieria was in Sergei's position, he would watch the civilians burn to their deaths. For Tieria, those lives don't matter. That isn't being professional; that's being pathogenically apathetic. (Or in other words, being a Psycho.)

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Setsuna is a victim, ok he is a victim, there can be other kinds of victims in wars, if Setsuna had an idea where he had no choice but to do it in order to survive, or he did it because he just listens like a damn fool, that will change my likeness of him in the further episodes. For now, i dont find him interesting anymore.

Still, your complete apathetic, almost Tieria-like, disregard for Ali's actions suggest you don't have as much problem with war criminals as war victims. Do you even care that a human-being ordered children to murder their parents?