Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[kujoe]

Shipping never ends. I think those who are satisfied are still thinking about the outcome and the possibilities. Hell, I bet some folks who like the ending are really Ranka shippers who are relieved that it's a draw (better something than nothing), whereas Sheryl shippers are pissed off that it is a draw (where's my cake?)

I can't say that I cannot relate.


Anyway, isn't DYRL a movie within the series of SDFM? I mean, it's an actual movie within the series' setting isn't it? So really, if it is, it's not a perfect depiction of the events surrounding the series... which is unfortunate since I prefer the portrayal of Minmay here.

Regardless of what branch of the original series one is referring to, Hikaru, Misa and Minmay ended up in good terms (see Macross Flashback). I think Hikaru made the right choice. He grew up, and he and Misa were on the same path.

Well, Macross Frontier will have a movie, but I wonder if there's also a possibility for a Flashback special for Frontier?

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Tabris

That, and a lot of the haters are the extreme shippers. And probably some people who jumped the gun and rated the raw without understanding a thing. With a few people who honestly thought it lacked a certain something, with good reason.

What does being a hater or extreme shipper have to do with being able to tell when someone botched the ending? What does it have to do with the ability of someone to point out the inconsistencies and the questions left unanswered? That it was rushed? As long as a person wasn't only watching Macross for the LT, there shouldn't be any problem.

And sure I'm a Sheryl ship, but by no means extreme. Sure I was disappointed by the inconclusive LT, but that's not my main and only grudge against Ep25. My viewership didn't resolve solely around the LT.

I respect people's decisions to just watch the show from an elevated point of view by only seeing whats on the surface. Because from that PoV Ep25 looks great! It provides everything a Macross fan could ever want. A happy ending, no deaths, implied romantic plots, and lots of Mecha pr0nz.

But to those of us who like to take a deeper look, once you get beneath the surface there's a whole world of unanswered mess.

[Kinku]

soo let get this straight they took over the vajra planet while the vajra went off to thier 10,000 years mating season? oh the whole time the song that ranka learn from her mother is a vajra mating call song? no wonder they get all crazy and stuff when she sang it

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

What does being a hater or extreme shipper have to do with being able to tell when someone botched the ending? What does it have to do with the ability of someone to point out the inconsistencies and the questions left unanswered? That it was rushed? As long as a person wasn't only watching Macross for the LT, there shouldn't be any problem.

And sure I'm a Sheryl ship, but by no means extreme. Sure I was disappointed by the inconclusive LT, but that's not my main and only grudge against Ep25. My viewership didn't resolve solely around the LT.

I respect people's decisions to just watch the show from an elevated point of view by only seeing whats on the surface. Because from that PoV Ep25 looks great! It provides everything a Macross fan could ever want. A happy ending, no deaths, implied romantic plots, and lots of Mecha pr0nz.

But to those of us who like to take a deeper look, once you get beneath the surface there's a whole world of unanswered mess.

I disagree that only extremely intellectual people like yourself were able to "see" beneath all the eyecandy and catch all these horrible flaws within the plotline.
Even among trolls there is a big number of Macross fans in this board that are really good in dissecting and analyzing all these 25 MF episodes.
You are trying to imply that the few, the gifted, that can see beyond certain elements of this anime can observe its flawed, rushed, full of plotholes etc...

I disagree. I actually think there are a lot of people here on this board that analyzed this last episode better than me and you together and they still liked it because there was a lot to like in it.

Sure there are unanswered elements here and there but the same happens in almost any story. To be honest, any anime fan is aware of the fact that final episodes tend to be a tricky subject. Countless anime run out of budget towards the end of the project. Some anime are either never finished or have rushed endings. Some are cut shorter, some just end in a way that pleases the director but not the audience, some end making very little sense at all. Its a plain simple fact with anime and you have to deal with it: The last episode is always dangerous grounds.
Not trying to go too deep into examples but who the hell liked the ending of Macross Zero? Was it memorable to you? Do you think Macross Frontier had an ending with more unanswered quetions than the "Masterpiece" Akira or Evangelion?

Now I am not asking anyone to expect the worst or settle for less when it comes to endings but you have to come to terms with the fact that MF built up to an awesome level of tension up to episode 24 and the only way for it to be perfect in YOUR opinion would be for it to end YOUR way.
Well, it didn't. It ended the way Kawamori wanted it to end. It may not fit your concept of closure but it was closure nonetheless. It's time to come to terms with it.
This series is awesome and I recommend it to everyone.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by Kinku

soo let get this straight they took over the vajra planet while the vajra went off to thier 10,000 years mating season? oh the whole time the song that ranka learn from her mother is a vajra mating call song? no wonder they get all crazy and stuff when she sang it

The Vajra haven't gone anywhere yet (Ai-kun is still around), though I think that might yet happen, because story-wise the Vajra are probably too powerful a force to leave around waiting for the next madman to exploit/antagonize.

Also, NUNS might not be comfortable about Frontier sitting on top of what was very nearly the end of the world.

[TwilightHack]

In true tl;dr fashion because I have a lot to say.

Originally Posted by lars18th

I disagree that only extremely intellectual people like yourself were able to "see" beneath all the eyecandy and catch all these horrible flaws within the plotline.
Even among trolls there is a big number of Macross fans in this board that are really good in dissecting and analyzing all these 25 MF episodes.
You are trying to imply that the few, the gifted, that can see beyond certain elements of this anime can observe its flawed, rushed, full of plotholes etc...

I disagree. I actually think there are a lot of people here on this board that analyzed this last episode better than me and you together and they still liked it because there was a lot to like in it.

Clearly you are jumping to an assumptions and putting words in my mount. I'm not implying anything about a "type" of people. What I am saying is that most people who like Ep25 don't acknowledge the questions, inconsistencies that Ep25 has failed to address.

Honestly if you take a look at all the replies that said they liked the ep, and take their reasons... they mostly mention the happy ending, the no deaths, the implied romantic plots, or the Mecha pr0nz. And I said I respect that.

But this leads to what I was saying previously. Ep25 left a lot of unanswered questions and inconsistencies... this is what most people tend ignore because they either don't see them, or they don't want to see them due to their detrimental factor. It's basically this type of thinking, "We got a happy ending, no one died, and we got awesome Mecha action, that's all that matters."

Is that wrong? No, because MF was that good up through Ep24 and it did provide a happy ending. So it's fine by me if you go right ahead and use the rest of the series to overlook Ep25's failings.

Sure there are unanswered elements here and there but the same happens in almost any story. To be honest, any anime fan is aware of the fact that final episodes tend to be a tricky subject. Countless anime run out of budget towards the end of the project. Some anime are either never finished or have rushed endings. Some are cut shorter, some just end in a way that pleases the director but not the audience, some end making very little sense at all. Its a plain simple fact with anime and you have to deal with it: The last episode is always dangerous grounds.

Unanswered elements here and there? Try everywhere.

And about the money thing, Macross is a cash cow. Take a look at their sales both Music and DVD wise. And need I remind you this is SK we're talking about? I highly doubt the studio would've denied SK the money if he needed it.

If you still believe that Macross F ran out of money near the end... just take a look at Ep24's animation sequences compared to the rest of the series. Damn top-notch. Also take a look at Ep25's CGI action sequences. Again top-notch. They saved the best value for last... with the exception of the last couple minutes of Ep25.

Not trying to go too deep into examples but who the hell liked the ending of Macross Zero? Was it memorable to you? Do you think Macross Frontier had an ending with more unanswered quetions than the "Masterpiece" Akira or Evangelion?

Did you even understand Macross Zero's ending? I thought the ending was satisfying in a bittersweet sort of way. It tied up loose ends before hand and the only real question that was left after it was over was... "Where did they go?"

And I can't speak much for Akira since it wasn't my cup of tea... but I do know that Evangelion was truly something that made people's heads turn. I don't think another ending can ever compare to the total and utter turnaround that Hideaki Anno pulled.

Now I am not asking anyone to expect the worst or settle for less when it comes to endings but you have to come to terms with the fact that MF built up to an awesome level of tension up to episode 24 and the only way for it to be perfect in YOUR opinion would be for it to end YOUR way.
Well, it didn't. It ended the way Kawamori wanted it to end. It may not fit your concept of closure but it was closure nonetheless. It's time to come to terms with it.

So you're saying that... unless it happened my way, I'd be satisfied. That couldn't be further from the truth but I do believe they left this ending too open. I also believe that they wasted the built up "awesome level of tension" on Ep25.

There was simply too much to to cover in one episode. It is in my opinion that whatever masterpiece SK had originally planned was cut short. There was at least enough more Macross F material to drag it at least 3 more episodes. But no, 25 was the limit because it was the 25th anniversary.

And people are satisfied for this ending when there could have been something much more greater!

This series is awesome and I recommend it to everyone.

The only point I'll agree with you on, but I'll always add a disclaimer that the ending may be a bit of a letdown compared to the greatness of the rest of the series.

In the end, this entire post is my own opinion and I haven't been pushing it on anyone. If you want to make me out to be the minority, I'm more than willing to defend my beliefs. I don't believe for a moment that the majority here who have been with Macross F from the beginning were truly satisfied with the ending. In fact, I know a lot of them haven't even posted here due to their disappointment with the ending. I hadn't seen so many "wtf's" before from so many people concerning this Ep25.

Now unless of course you can prove and outright tell me that there weren't an unusual amount of unanswered questions/inconsistencies that lessened the series... then I'll concede this debate.

[lars18th]

@TwilightHack: You present many valid points and I cant dispute nor disagree with them. There are many problems which I personally think are not really PLOT problems, but problems with the way the ending plot was presented. Yes, that can be absolutely blamed on the fact that everything had to be compressed into an episode 25. Maybe the goal was to make ep 25 into a much longer episode and that never got approved?
3 more episodes? I would have loved that just as much as you or anyone else.

My problem (and this is not directed to you at all, TwilightHack) is with people that make 300 posts (usually from the same 5 people) expressing how this episode was a total failure, a waste of CG, the most disgruntled story they ever watched, a disgrace to an otherwise good series, and so on... indefinitely....
Then they go on to call Kawamori an idiot or say he made this series cause he needed to make money. At one point they were discussing "who is to blame" for this disaster.

Just like they can troll endlessly about how they absolutely despise this last episode, I felt I should express my opinion on how I liked it. I really enjoyed it and I happen to have noticed 80% of the people that voted in this episode alone agreed with me. That's all. I liked it, they liked it, some didnt like it. Fine, live with it but stop flooding the forum trying to make it look like there is A LOT of people complaining because there aren't. It's only the same 11% going on and on and on.
The 80% that liked it don't come here to support my opinion because they already moved on to bigger and better things.
I am gonna do the same and so should half of the trolls here.

Kawamori, you are a genius! Thanks for giving us another iteration of the Macross saga! Most people in this forum agree this show rocked and 80% even liked the last episode, imagine that!!

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Uh, that's an interesting re-writing of the original SDF Macross or even DYRL you are giving us there ...

Minmay lost to Misa very obviously because Hikaru matured with time as a War is going on in the background, losing dear friends, and having the opportunity to compare the shallowness of Minmay (who had more attraction in the short term due to her looks, idol status and "cuteness") to the intelligence and soft side of Misa.
Misa's beauty (although I think it was also visible on the outside) was less obvious than Minmay's, but in the end Hikaru recognized that one of the two was far more attractive in a "soulmate" kind of way.
Minmay definitely lost due to her own flaws, when with time they became more and more apparent to a maturing character.

I think its easier than even that: Tsundere trumps Kawaii.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Uh, that's an interesting re-writing of the original SDF Macross or even DYRL you are giving us there ...

Minmay lost to Misa very obviously because Hikaru matured with time as a War is going on in the background, losing dear friends, and having the opportunity to compare the shallowness of Minmay (who had more attraction in the short term due to her looks, idol status and "cuteness") to the intelligence and soft side of Misa.
Misa's beauty (although I think it was also visible on the outside) was less obvious than Minmay's, but in the end Hikaru recognized that one of the two was far more attractive in a "soulmate" kind of way.
Minmay definitely lost due to her own flaws, when with time they became more and more apparent to a maturing character.

Well actually, what you're saying only applies to TV Minmei. If TV Minmei wasn't such an airhead... she would've realized she had Hikaru in the bag even before Misa was even in the running. But she didn't, and that was her own fault.

Now DYRL Minmei, she definitely lost to external circumstances. As opposed to TV Minmei who was an airhead and didn't see what was in front of her, DYRL Minmei was more mature and did. Unfortunately they were ripped apart due to circumstances she couldn't control.

It is my opinion that if DYRL Hikaru hadn't been separated from DYRL Minmei... DYRL Minmei would have won even if Misa had somehow worked her way into the picture.

It is also my opinion TV Minmei never had a chance once Misa was in the picture due to her own faults.

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Well actually, what you're saying only applies to TV Minmei. If TV Minmei wasn't such an airhead... she would've realized she had Hikaru in the bag even before Misa was even in the running. But she didn't, and that was her own fault.

Now DYRL Minmei, she definitely lost to external circumstances. As opposed to TV Minmei who was an airhead and didn't see what was in front of her, DYRL Minmei was more mature and did. Unfortunately they were ripped apart due to circumstances she couldn't control.

It is my opinion that if DYRL Hikaru hadn't been separated from DYRL Minmei... DYRL Minmei would have won even if Misa had somehow worked her way into the picture.

It is also my opinion TV Minmei never had a chance once Misa was in the picture due to her own faults.

I have just re-re-re-watched DYRL 3 days ago and I absolutely agree with what you said.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Now DYRL Minmei, she definitely lost to external circumstances. As opposed to TV Minmei who was an airhead and didn't see what was in front of her, DYRL Minmei was more mature and did. Unfortunately they were ripped apart due to circumstances she couldn't control.

Which is why I don't want the movie to be a retread. Because if it is centred around the LT as implied, any resolution will have to be heavy handedly forced using plot device instead of character growth in the short amount of time in the movie, with everything else happening in the show.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by glyph

Which is why I don't want the movie to be a retread. Because if it is centred around the LT as implied, any resolution will have to be heavy handedly forced using plot device instead of character growth in the short amount of time in the movie, with everything else happening in the show.

Well talk in the movie thread has it that things will be told from a different perspective... what that means? I have no clue. But since this movie was announced just as the TV series ended, we can assume that it wont true to the actual DYRL style reimagining.

We can only hope SK doesn't botch the the movie like he did Ep25. I know that I've only been pacified from blatant outrage because I have hopes in the movie. If the movie sucks.. I don't know what the response from fandom will be.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

What does being a hater or extreme shipper have to do with being able to tell when someone botched the ending? What does it have to do with the ability of someone to point out the inconsistencies and the questions left unanswered? That it was rushed? As long as a person wasn't only watching Macross for the LT, there shouldn't be any problem.

Did you fail to read past the first sentence in that post or something?

There are other reasons, I know...I've already said that. But a fair few people seemed to hate on the episode when the raws were released solely for the love triangle; not the lack of resolution, plot holes and rushed ending.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Did you fail to read past the first sentence in that post or something?

Nope, I read it the whole thing.

Just covering all my bases just in case it was directed towards me.. since you did reply to his post which assumed I was in the same group as the people you were lashing out at.

[Joachim]

how bad is it tv minmei compared to DYRL minmei anyway? i didn't exactly hate the DYRL minmei, infact she has done nothing wrong whatsoever in DYRL. And i even don't have any particular favorite between the two girl in DYRL, both are likeable. And as what twilight says.. minmei in DYRL lose because of an external circumstances

and hell yes @mughi's tsundere >> kawaii

[Tabris]

Not really, no.

But you must be able to acknowledge that Frontier brought in quite a lot of people who'd never seen Macross before and stayed mainly for the love triangle, not the rest.

Edit:

I blanket most extreme shippers (not normal shippers) like you blanket most people who like episode25.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

What I am saying is that most people who like Ep25 don't acknowledge the questions, inconsistencies that Ep25 has failed to address.

I'm sure there are quite a few people who enjoyed EP25 and still managed to acknowledge the giggling faults...I know I did and I've seen plenty of others who did as well.

Whatever, we're both being petty in some way. No biggy.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Minmay lost to Misa very obviously because Hikaru matured with time as a War is going on in the background, losing dear friends, and having the opportunity to compare the shallowness of Minmay (who had more attraction in the short term due to her looks, idol status and "cuteness") to the intelligence and soft side of Misa.
Misa's beauty (although I think it was also visible on the outside) was less obvious than Minmay's, but in the end Hikaru recognized that one of the two was far more attractive in a "soulmate" kind of way.
Minmay definitely lost due to her own flaws, when with time they became more and more apparent to a maturing character.

When I look at Frontier's LT situation from the moment it started, I was smelling the repeat of history all over the place with Ranka as well as she almost had everything Minmay had (cuteness (to some extend), rising to stardom and idol status) while the time Sheryl slowed down her life as a star allowed Alto to discover Sheryl's soft side and other attributes she didn't display when she was at the top. Speaking of shallowness, it was written on Ranka's face since she became a star: Minmay 2.0 more or less.

If we make the parallel with SDFM even stronger, Sheryl looks closer of a soulmate to Alto in the later stages than Ranka ever did in the entire series as his character maturing. The table was set for a Ranka loss due to her own flaws (similar to TV Minmay had), all that missed was the icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Well actually, what you're saying only applies to TV Minmei. If TV Minmei wasn't such an airhead... she would've realized she had Hikaru in the bag even before Misa was even in the running. But she didn't, and that was her own fault.
...............
It is also my opinion TV Minmei never had a chance once Misa was in the picture due to her own faults.

I agree that we can't compare anything with DYRL Minmay. It's like comparing oranges and apples: the best way to compare Ranka still is with TV Minmay. Anyway, I think Ranka was quite a airhead at times as well.

[kujoe]

I think the comparison has been made before.

Sheryl = a full-fledged star. (Minmay from DYRL)
Ranka = a rising idol. (TV Minmay)

[glyph]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

When I look at Frontier's LT situation from the moment it started, I was smelling the repeat of history all over the place with Ranka as well as she almost had everything Minmay had (cuteness (to some extend), rising to stardom and idol status) while the time Sheryl slowed down her life as a star allowed Alto to discover Sheryl's soft side and other attributes she didn't display when she was at the top. Speaking of shallowness, it was written on Ranka's face since she became a star: Minmay 2.0 more or less.

If we make the parallel with SDFM even stronger, Sheryl looks closer of a soulmate to Alto in the later stages than Ranka ever did in the entire series as his character maturing. The table was set for a Ranka loss due to her own flaws (similar to TV Minmay had), all that missed was the icing on the cake.

TV Minmay's mistake is her taking Hikaru for granted as "just friends" for the best part of the series while flirting around with her cousin (something Ranka never did), and then after the two years after making her decision, wanting to turn back the clock and desperately trying to reinsert herself into his life with her self centred clinginess. So not quite like Ranka.

Actually, with the Hikaru x Minmay dynamic, I would say Alto=Minmay, Ranka=Hikaru would be closer.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by glyph

Actually, with the Hikaru x Minmay dynamic, I would say Alto=Minmay, Ranka=Hikaru would be closer.

It's kind of tough to distinguish who's who when comparing Frontier characters to SDF/DYRL characters.

For example, Sheryl is a mixture of DYRL Minmei and Misa (love, playfulness and maturity) as opposed to Ranka who is mostly mixture of Hikaru and TV Minmei (love, longing and childishness)... on top of that there was a touch of originality to separate them from they were based off of.

And then Alto... I supposed Alto's personality could be a sort of a TV Minmei (clueless, doing own thing) with a large slate of originality to make the male lead interesting. He's the person you can really relate anyone fully to.

See, it's hard because they're a mixture of all of them!.

--

@Tabris - I can agree to that. Though I consider extreme shippers as those who have their goggles on all the time. I don't.

And about the part you quoted, I went more in-depth in the post. And truthfully, the people who can acknowledge that Episode 25 provided a satisfying enough ending to what is a great series... good for them. I have nothing against them because that is their own opinion.

But yes, this is becoming rather petty in nature.