(L) Gilgamesh Discussion

[dreamless]

Hmm... the main "theme" music of Gilgamesh? do you mean the short piano theme with only several notes that plays whenever Enkidu exert his power or in the memory of young Kiyoko?

[Za Paper]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Hmm... the main "theme" music of Gilgamesh? do you mean the short piano theme with only several notes that plays whenever Enkidu exert his power or in the memory of young Kiyoko?

The Merry Widow Waltz by Franz Lehar plays in a few eps. I remember it in one of young Kiyoko's memories in ep 24, also in ep 25 when the group is taking photos. IIRC, there was an episode titled The Merry Widow.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Za Paper

The Merry Widow Waltz by Franz Lehar plays in a few eps. I remember it in one of young Kiyoko's memories in ep 24, also in ep 25 when the group is taking photos. IIRC, there was an episode titled The Merry Widow.

no, that's not what I meant. What I was thinking about was that very very short (about just 4 notes?) clip that plays usually when Kiyoko looks up to the sky and mutters "father?" and when the gilgamesh receives a power-up during the attack of the tower.

[Vidar]

The tune that Kiyoko and Novem hummed (can't remember which episode it was, the part where the water was dripping from the faucet.. the one where she rescued Novem):it oughta be 'E A1 B1 G1 D E' though i think im missing one note, i can't really remember. the number '1' denotes that those pitches are above E.

I don't know if this makes a difference, but those pitches make up a pentatonic scale starting on G <G A B D E>. Although I see it more as a slightly undefined E minor triad. Pentatonic scales are commonly thought as... you know .. 'oriental'... 'exotic' etc etc. From a music student's point of view anyway. From my very scanty knowledge of Jap traditional music, pentatonic scales are used predominantly in their music.

This is a wild guess, but maybe the producers used the pentatonic-scale theme to contrast it against the Beethoven concerto, to show another level of conflict. Gilgamesh vs Novem and co (clones vs clones). Countess against TEAR (essentially fighting herself). European (generally anyway) music vs Jap traditional music.

Since i'm not that musically talented i can't really say something about the pentatonic scales. I do know though that heptatonic and pentatonic (even 12-tonic) scales are common for the Chinese and Japanese traditional music.
But hey, keep up the good work. Once you've found out tell me.

Anyway, the 'theme' song they use (as mentioned above) is Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5 in E-flat major, also commonly known as the 'Emperor' Concerto. (Gilgamesh - half god/king/emperor?) Anyway what's weird is they used the 2nd movement, not at all heroic and majestic like the 1st or the 3rd. This is why I hesitate to bring up the 'Emperor' connection as I feel that if the producers truly wanted to bring that out, they'd use the 1st/3rd, and not the slow 2nd mvt.

I looked the Beethoven piece up in a concert guide and it read that it was a common mistake to name this piece emperor concerto, since it was not written in favour of an emperor (in that case Napoleon rampaging through Europe) but in dislike. There was a quotation of a Beethoven comment:
"What devastating, rough life around me, nothing but drums, canons, human hardship of all kinds." So i guess you're right.

Another thing is, that this piece is one of the very last ones Beethoven wrote. I guess that speaks for itself. Madoka in the very first episode says: "If this is the end, then that music is perfect"

Did anyone note how smooth the transition of the music was at the end of ep26? From the scene of the destruction of the world to Tatsuya's last moments of consciousness? it flowed from the B major Beethoven movement to a Johann-Straussian-like waltz in G major, via the use of a common/pivot note: B. (B is an important and fundamental note in both keys.)

Yes indeed that sure does give a hint on their linkage to one another. But then again this piece is taken from an opera by Franz Lehar ("The merry Widow") - thanks Za - which was written for the amusement of the decadent austrian court society: Which means they contrast pretty strongly!
I myself found this follow up of Beethoven and Lehar quite ironic at first and then somehow reliefing. Got me puzzled you see

There's an episode which is called "Hammerklavier". These are Beethoven's opus 101/106. A female servant plays the piece inside Hotel Providence...

That's what i've found out and thought about...

Keep it up
- Vidar

[dreamless]

oh, so that's called a pentatonic scale... I guess I missed it as I'm not familiar with the musical terms...

[Vidar]

I found out even more, there obviously is a symphonic composition by a guy called Olliver Messiaen (now that name does fit in ) and o wonder it is called Turangalîla Symphony (remember turangalila is prof Enma's experiment to revive the sky)

I read the booklet and it gave me some idea of what turangalila means:
"Turangalîla - … - is a word in Sanskrit. As with all words from ancient oriental languages, its meaning is very rich. 'Lîla' literally means play - but play in the sense of the divine acting upon the cosmos, the play of creation, of destruction, of reconstruction [!!!], the play of life and death. 'Lîla' is also Love. 'Turanga': this is time that runs, like a galloping horse; this is time that flows, like sand in an hourglass. 'Turanga' is movement and rythm. 'Turangalîla' therefore means all at once love song, hymn to joy, time movement, rhythm, life and death."

I listened to it for a bit, and i think that this symphony recurrs in the episodes concerning the Turangalîla project.

@ lynne: that piece is atonal/ disharmonic (can't say if it's 12-tonic, sry)

Thanks for reading,
Keep up the good work,
- Vidar

[wsheit]

Here's an idea. Is it possible that at the end, Kiyoko/Novem daughter BECOMES TEAR? Her expression at the end could be taken as deranged. It could also, however, be the birth of tear within her. She is killing an image of the countess, who obviously wanted to get it on with madoka. Kiyoko anad the countess don't like each other for a number of reasons. Is it possible that this emotion lives in the daughter and thus spawns a new TEAR with the death of the old?

Just an idea i had watching 26 again...probably wrong, but it's fun to hypothesize.

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by wsheit

Here's an idea. Is it possible that at the end, Kiyoko/Novem daughter BECOMES TEAR? Her expression at the end could be taken as deranged. It could also, however, be the birth of tear within her. She is killing an image of the countess, who obviously wanted to get it on with madoka. Kiyoko anad the countess don't like each other for a number of reasons. Is it possible that this emotion lives in the daughter and thus spawns a new TEAR with the death of the old?

Just an idea i had watching 26 again...probably wrong, but it's fun to hypothesize.

Keep posting whatever comes to your mind

I personally doubt your theory since TEAr was created inside Delphys through the main characters' feelings of unrequited love channeled (thus the name TEAr) by the dimensional portal. So… i don't think there's any analogy to that in the last moments of the series.

I personally take Kiyoko/Novem's action as an act of revenge for anihilated mankind. And her expression to me expresses the whole set of deranged human feelings that ought to be destroyed by the cleansing flood… The king is dead,…

Long live the king,
- Vidar

[WTTrinity]

Originally Posted by Vidar

I personally doubt your theory since TEAr was created inside Delphys through the main characters' feelings of unrequited love channeled (thus the name TEAr) by the dimensional portal. So… i don't think there's any analogy to that in the last moments of the series.

I thought the name (technically) came from the 'lot number' combination the entity/object was found/placed in. At least I seem to remember that from the AF-F sub. Clearly the naming is deliberate by the creators, but it doesn't necessarily exclude the suggested possibility.

[dreamless]

anyone understand why there's an episode 27 listed at http://animedaisuki.net:8008?

[wsheit]

Originally Posted by dreamless

anyone understand why there's an episode 27 listed at http://animedaisuki.net:8008?

Weird, is it possible that there is another episode?
I went to the linked site, and it does say there is a 27th episode.

I wonder if this is someone's idea of an April Fool's day joke- passed down the line several times

[lynne_huang]

Originally Posted by Vidar

I do know though that heptatonic and pentatonic (even 12-tonic) scales are common for the Chinese and Japanese traditional music.
But hey, keep up the good work. Once you've found out tell me.

I'm slowly d.l the earlier episodes again to try and find out the exact 'tuning fork' motif. Once I do, i'll let you know! =)

Originally Posted by Vidar

I looked the Beethoven piece up in a concert guide and it read that it was a common mistake to name this piece emperor concerto, since it was not written in favour of an emperor (in that case Napoleon rampaging through Europe) but in dislike.

Yeah which is why i mentioned in my earlier post that it was commonly known as the Emperor concerto although Beethoven didn't name it that. He hated that pple kept calling it the Emperor concerto actually.

Actually, Beethoven did intend to dedicate a work to Napolean: his 3rd symphony, commonly known as the 'Eroica'. (I doubt Beethoven named it that too.) From what I recall, Beethoven idolized Napolean, and thought that he was the saviour... Mankind's salvation.. that kinda stuff. (We know better.) Then news came that Napolean crowned himself King of France and Beethoven was enraged by Napolean's actions. Something about Napolean going against all his original aesthetic ideals. I THINK it was something to do about overthrowing the anarchy in France and Napolean was the main protagonist in this movement and HE went to crown himself King of France! (History students, or anyway who knows more abt the French Revolution, pls fill in the gaps!) Beethoven tore out the manuscript's title of his 3rd symphony, which he had originally dedicated to Napolean and later put in: "To the Memory of a Great Man." Quite dramatic huh. Exactly what you expect of Beethoven.

Originally Posted by Vidar

I found out even more, there obviously is a symphonic composition by a guy called Olliver Messiaen (now that name does fit in ) and o wonder it is called Turangalîla Symphony (remember turangalila is prof Enma's experiment to revive the sky)

I listened to it for a bit, and i think that this symphony recurrs in the episodes concerning the Turangalîla project.

@ lynne: that piece is atonal/ disharmonic (can't say if it's 12-tonic, sry)

Thanks for reading,
Keep up the good work,
- Vidar

Oooh! Messiaen! Now that is cool. For people who don't know, he's a 20th century French composer. Yeah his music is not tonal in the traditional sense. But he does employ various modes in his works. And he'd written some Jap-inspired works too.

I'm going to d.l those episodes now, thanks for the input! =)

[Vidar]

The 3rd Symphony also is written in the same key as the piano concerto… (can't say what that means though, is the concerto written alike to the demi-god kind of great human beings Beethoven for a while saw napoleon being part of?).

Anyway, Beethoven like many free spirited man of that age saw Napoleon as the great man to bring peace to the distorted europe. Since Napoleon was considered the man to bring the french revolution (with its humanist, natural right and democratic ideals - Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité) to, equally, its conclusion, and to the whole of Europe, i guess, many people saw his reign over Europe as the beginning of some dreamt-of age. When Napoleon then crowned himself king this was a clear sign that he was not the successor to the revolutionists but a tyrann who merely utilized the French Revolution's ideals for gaining might. Thus prolonging the absolutist monarchic state that was there prior to the revolution: in other words he brought the revolution to an end by reversing it (there are some exceptions to that, like the code civil, uttered by Napoleon to appease the revolutionist forces but on the whole it's true)

So my guess is that the eroica must have been written for the pre-crowning Napoleon Bonaparte. Who seemingly appealed to younger Beethoven. While the piano concerto is written in memory of that man and to summon the patriotic anti-Bonaparte movement in Germany and elsewhere in Europe.

Keep posting whatever comes to your mind, I'll be glad to hear it
- Vidar

[lynne_huang]

Hey Vidar-> thanks for clearing things up abt the French Revolution!

Just for info: the melody that Kiyoko sings/hums:

'Shall we gather by the river
where bright angels' feet have trod...'

(which is gradually picked up by everyone) is called "At the River" by John Rutter. He's a choral composer btw, and this piece has SATB and SA versions, both with piano accompaniment. (Yes, he's still alive.)

If i'm not wrong, the words are from (or based on) a psalm in the Bible.

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by lynne_huang

Hey Vidar-> thanks for clearing things up abt the French Revolution!

Just for info: the melody that Kiyoko sings/hums:

'Shall we gather by the river
where bright angels' feet have trod...'

(which is gradually picked up by everyone) is called "At the River" by John Rutter. He's a choral composer btw, and this piece has SATB and SA versions, both with piano accompaniment. (Yes, he's still alive.)

If i'm not wrong, the words are from (or based on) a psalm in the Bible.

Hey Lynne, not a problem. School at last was good for something

Thanks for your research. There seems to be more to this than i initially thought. Look here: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/w/swgatriv.htm
The site states it was some priest called Robert Lowry who composed it, apparently after he had an apocalytpic vision!! What a blast! It couldn't be more fitting, could it?

Now that i recall it in most cases the hymn was sung in gilgamesh, there was some kind of destruction going on before (for example it was sung after the blattaria fighting the Gilgamesh destroyed the inner city)

Keep puzzling ,
- Vidar

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by Vidar

There's an episode which is called "Hammerklavier". These are Beethoven's opus 101/106. A female servant plays the piece inside Hotel Providence...

I should mention that although Piano Sonata No. 29, Op. 106 is called "Hammerklavier", that is not the one she is playing. Depending on who you talk to, "Hammerklavier" is either just German for piano, or refers specifically to an early type of piano, e.g., from the early nineteenth century when Beethoven was composing (the piano was changing substantially during this time period). The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by lomeando

I should mention that although Piano Sonata No. 29, Op. 106 is called "Hammerklavier", that is not the one she is playing. Depending on who you talk to, "Hammerklavier" is either just German for piano, or refers specifically to an early type of piano, e.g., from the early nineteenth century when Beethoven was composing (the piano was changing substantially during this time period). The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).

thanks for your post lomeando. i just had some kinda brainstorm when i posted that. most likely because i'm very passionate about clearing up gilgamesh's story by clearing up the origin of the musical score - since sound seems to be an important issue.

(just to let you know: hammerklavier is an older version of the now frequent piano which new to that time stroke its strings by "hammering" them. the even older cemballos used goose-keels to stroke the strings in a similar manner to how a harp is made sound. the hammerklavier was invented around beethoven's time just like you said)

Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?

[Miah]

Hi, haven't posted here before so don't stone me if I ramble in the woods some.
Thought that I could add my two cents.

Some people mind the art of the series. I have to admit that it appeals to me
much more than the "canon" of anime of today where everybody look alike save
their hair. It was as beautiful also in the content department although I don't
think the people in this forum need to be reminded of that.

There is this question what exactly did TEAr's name signify.
It's a jump into unknown, but I pondered about the sound of the name. As the
letter "r" is not capitalized it could be set aside and the rest be considered as part
of the main musical (Madoka Terumichi's) short theme, sort of variation of it - if we
view T E A as D E A, because there is no T in music.

As I watched the series I always thought that the actual sequence of Terumichi's
theme was E A B G D. It sounds to be in A minor (440 Hz being an important actor
in the series) so it ends on rather uncertain note - subdominant. So the D E A
sequence could incorporate the other, "missing" half of the theme, ending it
properly in A - E A B G D, D E A. It could also be considered as disformed
Terumichi's theme backwards - one starts with E A, other ends with it.

We could ascribe it to the fact that TEAr was actually connected to Terumichi, but
I suspect there could be much more to that.

An interesting fact - there is an Estonian composer Urmas Sisask who has used
the frequences of celestial bodies (planets) for his compositions - in the Starry Sky
Cycle for piano. It's unbelievable how good those frequencies sound put together.
So there a parallel - every time the theme of Terumichi resurfaced, it seemed to
resonate with the world/matter/universe, and it reminded me of the sequences of
celestial bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in fact an embodyment of a
physical occurence.

This series seems to deal a lot with the subject of predestination although I
haven't seen any thoughts on it in this forum. Even the fact alone that the clones
were bound to become aliknesses of their "originals".

Sorry for getting carried away ^^;

Hope to read what other people think.

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by Vidar

Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?

Sorry, I can't help you much there. I can play a little of it, but that doesn't help reveal any hidden meaning for you. Though one thing to note is that the sonata itself is in E major, and is mostly a cheerful piece. The middle movement, though, is in E minor (with a stint in C major for the B part of the A-B-A form it follows). Hearing it with the rest of the sonata, it never struck me as being nearly as gloomy as it sounds in that episode.

[Miah]

Okay now, maybe I went too far off in my last post. Japanese anime makers are probably not as great music theorists as J.S.Bach who used different musical images for the cross and Christ's tears and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Vidar

thanks for your post lomeando. i just had some kinda brainstorm when i posted that. most likely because i'm very passionate about clearing up gilgamesh's story by clearing up the origin of the musical score - since sound seems to be an important issue.

(just to let you know: hammerklavier is an older version of the now frequent piano which new to that time stroke its strings by "hammering" them. the even older cemballos used goose-keels to stroke the strings in a similar manner to how a harp is made sound. the hammerklavier was invented around beethoven's time just like you said)

Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?

Just a remark on your question - Beethoven didn't have exactly a great lovelife. Eventually he ended up alone, the women he proposed to did not decide on him (think about the countess). The second part of the 9th sonata reminds me of a funeral march. For the romantics in music history the genre of march signified unmerciful forces of destiny. Sure Beethoven is not a romantic in his early works but it does not mean people in the 21st century who chose this piece cannot attribute new hidden meanings.