(L) Gilgamesh Discussion

[lynne_huang]

Originally Posted by lomeando

The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).

Yes, that's right! It's Beethoven's op.14#1! I was trying to pinpoint it but I just couldn't rem which one it was.

Originally Posted by Miah

There is this question what exactly did TEAr's name signify.
It's a jump into unknown, but I pondered about the sound of the name. As the
letter "r" is not capitalized it could be set aside and the rest be considered as part
of the main musical (Madoka Terumichi's) short theme, sort of variation of it - if we
view T E A as D E A, because there is no T in music.

Wow, that's some interesting notion you got there!
Well, just pointing out another possibility: 'T' could be 'B' in solfege terms. I was in Yamaha Music Sch and the note 'B' was sung 'T/Ti' in solfege. Eg. C D E F G A B C would be Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do (The Europeans generally sing 'Ti' as 'Si')

I do agree that the central key of the anime is A minor. You know the choral music where a solo voice enters, followed by other voices, and they form clusters of thirds? They normally have this 'choral' section accompany when the topic at hand is about Dynamis etc etc.

It starts out w 'B C A E D' and all these notes are held down together. Without the D, it forms a A minor chord in 2nd inversion. What's interesting is that if you arrange these notes, they form the 1st 5 notes of the A minor scale A B C D E.

To me, the other theme 'E A B G D' is a derivation from the above.

If you notice, the note 'F' is left out of both themes or is not featured prominently. I think this is because it's reserved for other non-action scenes eg. btw Kiyoko n Madoka in the early episodes:

< (#) denote #octaves below middle C>

F C(2) G(1) D C G (Harp), B1 C1 F (Flute) -->F in the bass is held throughout (pedalpoint) as well as clusters of notes in higher registers. If I were to name a key for this, I would say this is in F major - which is the relative major key of A minor.

Actually I think the motivic material and the orchestration of the music play a big part as well, but never mind.

Just some extra info for fun: in Ep 2, do you guys rem the Countess watching an opera? It's Mozart's Don Giovanni, Act 3 Scene something (I can't remember).
(Btw the music and the scene they showed do not actually correspond in the actual opera.) But basically, the scene has this guy Don Giovanni (seducer of 1000++ women) being dragged away against his will to Hell by the Devil. (Who would want to go anyway?) And this came right after Kiyoko and Madoka were chased by the Gilgamesh (i think), and they saw one of the Gilgamesh in his 'other' form, and were on the verge of fainting. It might be a parallel where Kiyoko/Madoka rep D.G. and the Gilgamesh guy (with scary face thrown in) rep the Devil.

-shruggs- Am I making too much out of nothing? Hmmmmm.

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by lynne_huang

If I were to name a key for this, I would say this is in F major - which is the relative major key of A minor.

I'm not sure where you learned your music theory, but C major is the relative major key of A minor. F major and A minor are weakly related keys (despite differing by only one accidental in key signature). F is the VI of A, and A is the III of F (i.e., not the dominant or sub-dominant), and F can't even serve as a secondary dominant, since the B in the A minor scale is a tritone below it, not a fifth.

I had forgotten the Don Giovanni scene, but if you're looking for someone whom multiple women loved being dragged down to Hell, my first guess would've been Enkidu.

[lynne_huang]

Originally Posted by lomeando

I'm not sure where you learned your music theory, but C major is the relative major key of A minor. F major and A minor are weakly related keys (despite differing by only one accidental in key signature). F is the VI of A, and A is the III of F (i.e., not the dominant or sub-dominant), and F can't even serve as a secondary dominant, since the B in the A minor scale is a tritone below it, not a fifth.

-smacks forehead- yes i can't believe that slipped past me! i need to go back to grade 1! Sorry about that. Heh.

What I meant to point out rather, is that A is III of F, which you mentioned above. This mediant relation is important, don't you think? This A note is fundamental in both A minor and F major, but sounds different in each key, due to the tone colours of the chords of that key. This might have had been the composer's way of linking the different sections together.

Just a random thought.. modulations from the tonic to the mediant key in the Romantic period were quite popular if I'm not wrong...

Oh and yeah, I guess Endiku ought to have had been dragged down. Or rather, his host: TEAR. In the end, TEAR dragged everyone down to hell anyway.

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by lynne_huang

Just a random thought.. modulations from the tonic to the mediant key in the Romantic period were quite popular if I'm not wrong...

Common practice (harmony and voice leading in the 18th and 19th centuries) focuses on the dominant and subdominant (it is also sometimes called "dominant harmony", to contrast it with "non-dominant harmony" that came later). Thus "closely" related keys are separated by fifths, not thirds. However, all keys are related, some just more distantly than other, and examples of modulation to the mediant or submediant are not uncommon (Beethoven's own Op. 18, No. 3 String Quartet contains a modulation from D major to F# minor in the third movement; it uses the VI chord in D (IV in f#) as the pivot).

[redwalker]

This may be a spoiler unless you've seen all 26 episodes.

Spoiler:

So I think what happened was:
1. Enkidu flirted with but did not sleep with the future countess.
2. Enkidu met the girl he would soon marry.
3. Enkidu got his wife pregnant and sent her away for safety.
4. Enkidu cheated on his wife with the future countess.
5. The future countess married the count.
6. TEAR arose due to the countess' conflict.
7. TEAR possessed Enkidu and caused Twin X.

Does that sound correct?

[pontupo]

Well, what can I say...... with this series I am just not sure. Though I have watched many series, I have never posted any thoughts before, but I thought that I might as well. In Gilgamesh, I don't trust anyone. The enemies of the series both seem bad. (I hope this isn't a spoiler, and if it is, please let me know). I have watched through episode 8, anyone have any thoughts?

oh by the way, sorry for my avatar. i just havent taken the time to find a unique one

[7thMethuselah]

Welcome to the forums

I just started watching gilgamesh as well (i'm up to episode 11) now and it starts to get really interesting. I hate the art in Gilgamesh (character art) but the setting and atmophere is so unique that it kept me interested. So far I really can't say who the good guys and who the bad guys are. I'm kinda voting for the gilgamesh kids (since they are alot cooler ). Episodes 4-8 were rather boring a bit off character development yes but too long spun in my opinion. But at least now it seems the series is picking up the pace.

I find the mystreries surrounding these kids and this world very intriguing, they are probably the only reason why I didn't drop this show after 5 episodes and I'm glad I didn't, I'm really hoping to get more explanations fast

[soupy]

okay, I've reading this thread and there's quite alot of interesting suggestions and ideas here. I just did a marathon finishing this so I figure I'd share my thoughts about the ending:

Spoiler:

So first off, Reiko-chan is definitely a boy and a direct clone of the old man. Where she got so much power? I have no idea. The clones all lost/died according to the usual ideal that the original is always the best. Most of the Biblical references that were mentioned I have to agree with. The countess realized the fact that she was the cause for the manifestation of TEAR and decided to accept it. With a shock like that (you ended the world), what else could you do at that point? Kiyoko is dead, she and her brothers spirits meet at the end and will always be together. The girl out of the embryo/cacoon is the child, but here's a odd theory that I'd like to throw into the bunch, TEAR at the end asks the child is she wants to play (asabo), but the child, being a mix of gilgamesh and a descendent of Enkidu refuses. TEAR in this case wants to play ANOTHER game, a game of human life again. However this time it's refused from the start but it still doesn't end well because the child is definitely twisted. I keep thinking of the Countess' fear of what a child of gilgamesh and kiyoko would be like. So in the end humans still maitain the violent, selfish, ignorant attitude and everything will restart itself with no progress at all. The Cleansing Flood is pretty much useless. It's either that or she used the tuning fork to get rid of TEAR to "retune" the broken world (remember how kiyoko is always tuning that broken piano she's so fond of, but in the end it will always be to no avail). The End.

Personally I feel that thought-provoking endings for anime series based on apocalyptic stuff always works well because it leaves a deep after taste. When you touch on the subject of ending the world, you can't have a direct conclusion because no one can agree with each other. It has to be left open and weird. All in all, an awesome series once you get used to the artstyle .

[7thMethuselah]

I just saw epi's 12 - 26 in one afternoon/evening. The ending was weird, I didn't expect something like this. Reading all the previous posts I think we are more or less right about the meaning of the ending. Still there was one thing that bothered me

Spoiler:

the fact that the countess and her feeling towards enkidu were resposible for everything, in the entire series there were very little references to that, so it kinda "dropped out of the sky". Too bad they killed of Reiki, I love the mysterious characters and he was the only character apart from the gilgamesh children I liked.

Oh well, this anime earned it's spot between those other incomprehensible anime's called Evangelion and Lain. I still hate the art though...

[delta9]

I liked the art and loved the ending, it was different like Lain and Eva and I loved those endings too. I watched the remastered version of eva's ending too many times to remember, for some reason watching that ending while completely blazed on good herbs makes you feel the anime even more, then again maybe it's the really good song (turn back time) that they were playing while everything was happening, music does sound better and different while blazed.

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by delta9

...music does sound better and different while blazed.

That a suggestion? lol

Originally Posted by soupy

It's either that or she used the tuning fork to get rid of TEAR to "retune" the broken world (remember how kiyoko is always tuning that broken piano she's so fond of, but in the end it will always be to no avail)

That's an interesting point you made. For me alike Kiyoko symbolized the purity of mankind (There's an alusion to that in the 5th or so episode when kiyoko is having an examination after she was kidnapped by the gilgamesh onto the airport: the countess finds out that "she still has it" which to me means that she is a virgin)
Given that, kiyoko in my oppinion seemingly tries to "retune" mankind, which to me, like you said soupy, is symbolized in the tuning of the broken piano - her counterpart (and alas her father) Enkidu possessed by the unpure feelings contained in the revengeful spirit that is TEAr, is trying to clean it by setting its evolution back.
The counterpart-like behavior of Kiyoko is clearly evident in some moments in the series. For example when she does not want to meet up with her father after she was kidnapped, and in her seemingly natural, instinctive dislike for the countess.

Spoiler:

Who we know is to be accounted for all.
Anyway in the very last episode there's this very dramatic word of tatsuya's to Enkidu: "nee-san ga shinda yo" - "Sister is dead" and Enkidu just rambles on about the new mankind. That suggests to me that with the last remaining pure element gone, earth is bound for apocalypse.

Originally Posted by Miah

every time the theme of Terumichi resurfaced, it seemed to
resonate with the world/matter/universe, and it reminded me of the sequences of
celestial bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in fact an embodyment of a

Can't say i understood this fully, but it reminded me of something

Spoiler:

Wasn't Kazamatsuri using a (i don't know how) frequenced arrow against Enkidu in the end. And then again the tuning fork of kiyokos was made sound on several occasions when gilgamesh were near.

Originally Posted by lynne huang

Just some extra info for fun: in Ep 2, do you guys rem the Countess watching an opera? It's Mozart's Don Giovanni, Act 3 Scene something (I can't remember).
(Btw the music and the scene they showed do not actually correspond in the actual opera.) But basically, the scene has this guy Don Giovanni (seducer of 1000++ women) being dragged away against his will to Hell by the Devil.

Made me remember that she is an impersonization of Ishtar who also has an ambiguous love-life, and who draws bad luck to everyone she loves (Count Werdenberg, Madoka Terumichi). Don Giovanni and Ishtar are some closely tied characters, no?

Well, well, well however it is,
Thanks for reading,
- Vidar

[dreamless]

hmm... Kiyoko may represent the purity of mankind, but her child represents the purity of... mankind and gilgamesh? the merge of the purest of mankind with the purest of gilgamesh?

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by dreamless

hmm... Kiyoko may represent the purity of mankind, but her child represents the purity of... mankind and gilgamesh? the merge of the purest of mankind with the purest of gilgamesh?

Her purity was lost as she slept with Novem. That's the subtext.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Vidar

Her purity was lost as she slept with Novem. That's the subtext.

then the ending means the impure human/gilgamesh wins over the impure human/TEAR? wait, gilgamesh are created by TEAR, so in the end it's impure human/TEAR vs. impure human/TEAR?

it's more and more confusing @_@

[Vidar]

Originally Posted by dreamless

then the ending means the impure human/gilgamesh wins over the impure human/TEAR? wait, gilgamesh are created by TEAR, so in the end it's impure human/TEAR vs. impure human/TEAR?

it's more and more confusing @_@

Absolutely ^_^

What purity after all? From its deranged look at the very end it is quite obvious that kiyoko/novem is not pure. But then again the oh so pure TEAr was not born from the rather pure love of two people (even though one consisted of anti-matter ) but from one woman's fear of loss and envy. Confusingly paradoxic >_<

[Laiko]

I just finished watching the whole series and i'd like to add some comments.
First off...the art at first glance was very...*new* (I have watched anime's from Trigun to Naruto) I didnt really like the art at first and went beyond 5eps of the series. As it went along the series really came through. I adapted to the art and was fine with it towards the end of the series. People dont like it because the art is very different then how other anime characters are drawn from other shows.

I would rabble on the things u guys have posted but am too busy to argue against u guys o.O.

PS: Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters? I was kind of shocked. Kind of remembed me of Narutaru

[dreamless]

I agree it's disturbing, but a different way of "disturbing" from Narutaru's... well, "disturbing". It's quite a dark and bleak series, one woman's jealousy killed all humans... now that's some extreme love stuff

[pontupo]

Originally Posted by Laiko

I just finished watching the whole series and i'd like to add some comments.
First off...the art at first glance was very...*new* (I have watched anime's from Trigun to Naruto) I didnt really like the art at first and went beyond 5eps of the series. As it went along the series really came through. I adapted to the art and was fine with it towards the end of the series. People dont like it because the art is very different then how other anime characters are drawn from other shows.

I have to agree with you about the art. In the end, I thought that it was one of the few redeeming qualities of this series. It was interesting that the whole thing had a... oh I don't know, a pastel feeling to it. Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Laiko

PS: Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters? I was kind of shocked.

As for this, YES!! I thought that the ending was completely lame and a total cop-out. It really had the feeling to me that they had no idea how they were going to end the series when they started it and then when they got there, they just couldn't come up with anything good, so they figured, "hey why not just have everyone die needlessly and pointlessly, then we will throw in a couple of random images to make everyone think really hard. Hopefully, they'll make up some meaning to this totally random and useless ending!" OK, ok. So that's a little harsh. But still, imo this show was really not worth it. I stuck with it through the whole thing because it was actually pretty interesting, but the ending blew big donkey balls. But then, I didn't like the end of Eva either, so what to I know.

[dreamless]

kinda wodering if anyone has read the original manga? how faithful is the story taken from the manga?

[Prince of Chronics]

Originally Posted by Laiko

Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters?

I enoyed that very much actually... there was a whole bunch of episodes that was purely talking and plot development... then it just got all crazy... it was very entertaining to see all that...

Originally Posted by dreamless

kinda wodering if anyone has read the original manga? how faithful is the story taken from the manga?

I did not even know there was a manga for this series... the character designs look so different... I also would like to know how close the manga and the anime stories are...