(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[eiyuuou]

some here seem to think that the alt world is some peaceful place then conveniently forget

S1: Sunlight Scripture from Slane Theocracy invaded the kingdom's territory and killing innocents just to drag Gazef out and assassinate him in cold blood. Is Slane Theocracy "good"???

S1: Clementine kills adventurers simply because she can and she loves doing so. you know the Crown of Wisdom she stole? ripping it off destroys the wearer's mind. Are murderers "good"???

S3: Guu just decided Ainz is a coward and weakling and simply decided to kill Ainz. puzzled over its ineffective attacks, it even clobbered its subordinates to prove its attacks were working. Are your typical monsters "good"???

S2: Eight Fingers is an underground syndicate in Re-Estize Kingdom exploiting people. Kidnapping people is like taking candy from a baby for them. If the kingdom doesn't have corrupt elements like nobles supporting them. Eight Fingers would have greater difficulties to stay afloat. Is the Kingdom "good"???

Spoiler:

S3: Jircniv has no problem using Count Femel as his pawn and sacrificing him as an apology or the important fact he waged an annual war with Re-Estize just to keep them weak or he plotting a secret alliance with other countries to bring down Ainz. Is the empire "good"?

S1: Shaltear was brainwashed by a world item and couldn't be dispelled by Wish Upon A Star. Since he was forced to kill Shaltear with his own hands, it made him more hostile towards the possible threat of outsiders with World Items that would harm Nazarick in the near future. Being unable to find the culprit or the world item would mean he would have an innate distrust towards outsiders. Is protecting your family "evil"?

In the real world, Momonga was attacked for using a nonhuman player. Good luck convincing stuckup nobles in the alt world a guild of extremely powerful nonhumans were friendly and not targets to be exterminated.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Endscape

It has nothing to do with modern morality. Even by the morality in-series, the people who have seen Ainz's actions close up have dubbed him a monster. In fact, some of them did so even when he was doing something that benefitted them, because Ainz's actions go past what can be rationalized as 'necessary'.

Only because of his race and appearance.
It is repeatedly mentioned that the same people later are shocked that Ainz is far less violent than they expected. The very fact that Ainz doesn't do violence for its own sake is amazing to them. Racial profiling is a thing, and the novels never stops reminding the reader that the human characters make assumptions about Ainz that are entirely wrong. That the rule of Ainz is far more reasonable than even normal human governments in their world. I would give examples, but it would be spoilers.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

some here seem to think that the alt world is some peaceful place then conveniently forget

S1: Sunlight Scripture from Slane Theocracy invaded the kingdom's territory and killing innocents just to drag Gazef out and assassinate him in cold blood. Is Slane Theocracy "good"???

S1: Clementine kills adventurers simply because she can and she loves doing so. you know the Crown of Wisdom she stole? ripping it off destroys the wearer's mind. Are murderers "good"???

S3: Guu just decided Ainz is a coward and weakling and simply decided to kill Ainz. puzzled over its ineffective attacks, it even clobbered its subordinates to prove its attacks were working. Are your typical monsters "good"???

S2: Eight Fingers is an underground syndicate in Re-Estize Kingdom exploiting people. Kidnapping people is like taking candy from a baby for them. If the kingdom doesn't have corrupt elements like nobles supporting them. Eight Fingers would have greater difficulties to stay afloat. Is the Kingdom "good"???

Spoiler:

S3: Jircniv has no problem using Count Femel as his pawn and sacrificing him as an apology or the important fact he waged an annual war with Re-Estize just to keep them weak or he plotting a secret alliance with other countries to bring down Ainz. Is the empire "good"?

Absolutely no one is saying Ainz is the only evil in the New World, so I don't know what you're getting at. You can't point at Staline and Pol Pot or whoever and use them to argue Hitler wasn't evil.

S1: Shaltear was brainwashed by a world item and couldn't be dispelled by Wish Upon A Star. Since he was forced to kill Shaltear with his own hands, it made him more hostile towards the possible threat of outsiders with World Items that would harm Nazarick in the near future. Being unable to find the culprit or the world item would mean he would have an innate distrust towards outsiders. Is protecting your family "evil"?

As Yoda said, "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

That was neither an instruction nor a moral caution to massacre children.

In the real world, Momonga was attacked for using a nonhuman player. Good luck convincing stuckup nobles in the alt world a guild of extremely powerful nonhumans were friendly and not targets to be exterminated.

Irrelevant. The New World nobles aren't a threat.

[Solace]

If I see any more novel hints I'm going to start issuing infractions.

Also, the show's called Overlord for a reason. Don't start getting all morally conflicted just because he killed the waifu and used her corpse for spare parts. Ainz is the ruler of a nation of monsters. He's the antihero. That means occasionally his ethics and choices overlaps with a humans, but even if they do the end goals could be wildly different. Other than that, expect monster morality. Because he is one.

On the other hand, some of you would love Skeleton-dono.

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by Solace

On the other hand, some of you would love Skeleton-dono.

I'm pretty damn sure that many thought Overlord would be this when it first came out.

[Solace]

I can see why, and there's plenty of ammo to argue both ways. But people should understand that the human behind the avatar can no longer afford to be chained to the morality we expect because he can never be human again, and his situation demands that it would be a really stupid idea to throw away the thing he treasures most (his guild) and go it alone.

Not that he can't. He's overpowered. But he never considered it. This is a person so invested in the game world that he literally stayed until the servers were supposed to go down. Even his own guild mates logged out early. And never once since "becoming" his virtual avatar has he ever thought about going back to his life as a human on earth. In fact, just the opposite: he's using his power to reach across the world to see if other players like him exist. Not like he has anything better to do anyway.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Indeed. Even just threatening people with his overwhelming power would make them fall in line. (Yes, morally speaking, it's not ideal, but it would trivially get just as much results with much fewer deaths.)

What part of "they are stubborn, idiotic barbarians who can't understand any language other than that of violence" you don't understand? If he just threatens them without doing any real damage, they will just conclude his show of force is just a hoax and refuse to acknowledge his authority. NWers' mentality is basically that of savages' "If he could kill me and take everything, why didn't he do it already? What is the point of trying to scare me? Since he didn't kill me, it had to because he couldn't. He must be some sort of weakling trying to decieve me".

And about the nobles, they are no threat to Ainz's survival but really an annoying hindrance if he tries to reform the world peacefully like you suggest. He needs their cooperation to do that since they hold the land and authority over people.

[moridin84]

What is this about a utopia? I've not seen any mention of creating a utopia in the anime.

Plus, the people of Nazarick hate humans so this utopia can't include them.

Maybe it includes other monsters but honestly, I haven't seen them be all that friendly to monsters either. All they seem to care about it whether they are useful to Nazarick and whether they would be slavishly loyalty to Ainz.


-

Some people were saying about how Ainz is "afraid of disappointing the NPCs". I think that people underestimate how dangerous that would be.

The people of Nazarick follow Ainz because they believe him to be some perfect, wonderful overlord. If they were really disillusioned with him, possible if he wasn't so careful about maintaining his character, then they really could turn on him.

The battle with Shalltear has already shown they the Guardians are a real, and currently only, threat to Ainz. If they became disloyal.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by moridin84

What is this about a utopia? I've not seen any mention of creating a utopia in the anime.

Plus, the people of Nazarick hate humans so this utopia can't include them.

Maybe it includes other monsters but honestly, I haven't seen them be all that friendly to monsters either. All they seem to care about it whether they are useful to Nazarick and whether they would be slavishly loyalty to Ainz.


-

Some people were saying about how Ainz is "afraid of disappointing the NPCs". I think that people underestimate how dangerous that would be.

The people of Nazarick follow Ainz because they believe him to be some perfect, wonderful overlord. If they were really disillusioned with him, possible if he wasn't so careful about maintaining his character, then they really could turn on him.

The battle with Shalltear has already shown they the Guardians are a real, and currently only, threat to Ainz. If they became disloyal.

No. They follow him because it's hard coded in them. Just like the summoned goblins follow Enri. They know she's just a regular human, but they're still absolutely loyal to her.

And even if he wants to avoid disappointing the NPCs, there are ways to do it while killing much fewer people.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

What part of "they are stubborn, idiotic barbarians who can't understand any language other than that of violence" you don't understand? If he just threatens them without doing any real damage, they will just conclude his show of force is just a hoax and refuse to acknowledge his authority. NWers' mentality is basically that of savages' "If he could kill me and take everything, why didn't he do it already? What is the point of trying to scare me? Since he didn't kill me, it had to because he couldn't. He must be some sort of weakling trying to decieve me".

And your proof of that? When has he ever made a show of power that didn't result in immediate submission?

And about the nobles, they are no threat to Ainz's survival but really an annoying hindrance if he tries to reform the world peacefully like you suggest. He needs their cooperation to do that since they hold the land and authority over people.

1. He doesn't need to reform the world. It's just something he does on a whim.
2. He can easily get their cooperation by threat or bribery.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And your proof of that? When has he ever made a show of power that didn't result in immediate submission?

You know the proof, since you also read the LN. But I don't really want to list them out since we have been warned about giving out spoiler. But even in the anime we already seen "strong" people, like Clementine , the giant troll in the forest or Foresight, who fought Ainz but refused to acknowledge his strength and tried to repeat their failed attack again and again until their death. It reflects the stubborn mentality of NWers. They are too obsessed with their own power and too inflexible to change their way of thinking. Only very smart people submitted immediately, like the naga or the emperor, but they are the minority.

1. He doesn't need to reform the world. It's just something he does on a whim.
2. He can easily get their cooperation by threat or bribery.

I thought you agree with Endscape that Ainz can create a utopia through reforming the world by trade and technology instead of a war of conquest? And since the project is a utopia with peace and harmony for all, you can't possibly think it can be achieved with corrupt officials who can easily be bribed ruling as local lords, right? Otherwise, please give me an example about one society in our history with a corrupt, self-serving leadership and a prosperous population.

[Sixth]

I would believe that world ruling by Ainz would be a good place if he gets rid of Demiurge and other bloodlusts NPC from his ruling. Did you see how pissed off Albedo when Ainz said he wants to save a human girl in Season 2?

As long as Demiurge and other bloodlust NPC are a part of Nazarick government ruling, then the new world is just as same as the country that ruled by ISIS or NK.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

You know the proof, since you also read the LN. But I don't really want to list them out since we have been warned about giving out spoiler. But even in the anime we already seen "strong" people, like Clementine , the giant troll in the forest or Foresight, who fought Ainz but refused to acknowledge his strength and tried to repeat their failed attack again and again until their death. It reflects the stubborn mentality of NWers. They are too obsessed with their own power and too inflexible to change their way of thinking. Only very smart people submitted immediately, like the naga or the emperor, but they are the minority.

No, people who could see that his actual power far surpassed their own submitted. If he pretends to be weak (as he did against Clementine), he hasn't made a convincing show. That's all it is. Yes, some people are too dumb to see his strength, especially when their blood is up. Like the troll. But for the most part? Hamsuke submitted as soon as Ainz released his aura, the Lizardmen tried to surrender when they saw the Old Guard, the Emperor gave in to all demands as soon as he saw Mare's spell and so on. But very, very few of the deaths he's left in his wake have been at all useful in convincing anyone of anything.

I thought you agree with Endscape that Ainz can create a utopia through reforming the world by trade and technology instead of a war of conquest? And since the project is a utopia with peace and harmony for all, you can't possibly think it can be achieved with corrupt officials who can easily be bribed ruling as local lords, right? Otherwise, please give me an example about one society in our history with a corrupt, self-serving leadership and a prosperous population.

Give me one historical example of any utopia being created at all.

While we're at it, give me proof you can't get rid of "corrupt officials" without slaughtering innocents wholesale. Or even evidence it's particularly useful.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Firstly, I never said you can accomplish that goal without any casualties. The problem is that Ainz doesn't even bother trying. Slaughter is his first option, not his last resort.

Secondly, why do you assume the only way to create a utopia is through bloody wars of conquest?

Ainz is poweful enough and knowledgable enough to find other options. Improving trade and technology throughout the area, creating an actual consensus between countries, there are plenty of other ways to improve the world if that's what he actually wanted to do. But Ainz doesn't actually care about creating a utopia, he's just doing it for PR.

Last time someone tried this, even when being above the nobles in rank, they got the moniker of "bloody emperor". He succeeded and could flaunt superb results, having improved the situation of the Empire immensly, but his reputation was ruined. However he at least was still a "legitimate" ruler at the time.

Do you REALLY think an "outsider" like Ainz would be able to do such things without "legitimizing" himself first? Just because he is super powerful? But if he takes advantage of that, then the thing that happens will be exactly what many in this thread consider "evil". It will be rule through fear that even the sadistic Demi-Urge views as unwise.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

1. He doesn't need to reform the world. It's just something he does on a whim.
2. He can easily get their cooperation by threat or bribery.

It's the best method he currently knows to spread his name (which is his main goal next to "surviving"), which is how he was convinced to become a king in the first place, so at this point it's not just a mere whim anymore.

Also the comparison between Kingdom and Empire should have already shown that this patch-work approach of how to treat nobles in the Kingdom is useless in the long term. Jircniv did a "bloody purge" but the results speak for themselves and this massacre would make the Empire easily able to completely supersede the Kingdom in time. Think of Arche's parents and how people similar to them control territories all over the Kingdom and you can just imagine how the future for them looks.

Bribing them means that the nobles just have more money to spend more on luxuary products. The problem of them ruining their fief will not disappear. And threatening? Again, that would result in rule of fear and resentment, which is no problem with monsters like the demon snake of the West, but a very bad approach long-term with humans.

Now add to all that the fact that Ainz, who is in search of "someone who he can learn Kingscraft from" sounded genuininely impressed by Jircnivs reforms and therefore is likely to imitate at least a few things from him. If Ainz had to choose between the methods of the Kingdom and the Empire, whose would you think he would chose in the end? Isn't it obvious?

Originally Posted by Sixth

I would believe that world ruling by Ainz would be a good place if he gets rid of Demiurge and other bloodlusts NPC from his ruling. Did you see how pissed off Albedo when Ainz said he wants to save a human girl in Season 2?

As long as Demiurge and other bloodlust NPC are a part of Nazarick government ruling, then the new world is just as same as the country that ruled by ISIS or NK.

As I said before, Demi-Urge HIMSELF said that rule through fear and violence is a bad method, so it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Albedo sounded more like she was annoyed about "Momonga" caring more about his guild members and his guild, rather than about himself.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

As I said before, Demi-Urge HIMSELF said that rule through fear and violence is a bad method, so it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Albedo sounded more like she was annoyed about "Momonga" caring more about his guild members and his guild, rather than about himself.

Demiurge and Albedo are a TIGER.

What do you think it will happen if you have a TIGER to watch over a bunch of rabbits inside the cage?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Sixth

Demiurge and Albedo are a TIGER.

What do you think it will happen if you have a TIGER to watch over a bunch of rabbits inside the cage?

You metaphor doesn't negate that Demi-Urge himself mentioned it as being an unwise way of ruling.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It's the best method he currently knows to spread his name (which is his main goal next to "surviving"), which is how he was convinced to become a king in the first place, so at this point it's not just a mere whim anymore.

Also the comparison between Kingdom and Empire should have already shown that this patch-work approach of how to treat nobles in the Kingdom is useless in the long term. Jircniv did a "bloody purge" but the results speak for themselves and this massacre would make the Empire easily able to completely supersede the Kingdom in time. Think of Arche's parents and how people similar to them control territories all over the Kingdom and you can just imagine how the future for them looks.

Bribing them means that the nobles just have more money to spend more on luxuary products. The problem of them ruining their fief will not disappear. And threatening? Again, that would result in rule of fear and resentment, which is no problem with monsters like the demon snake of the West, but a very bad approach long-term with humans.

Fwarlord is the one who insisted that
1. Ainz needed the nobles to cooperate.
2. Killing lots of people was somehow helpful for that.

I rejected point 2 and merely indulged point 1. Because the thing is, he didn't purge corrupt nobles. He purged random bozos unrelated to political power. Or do you think the deaths of the Workers will in any way legitimize his future conquests?

Also, why do you draw such a distinction between non-humans and humans? Why would something be good enough for Nagas or Lizardmen, but not for Humans?

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

You metaphor doesn't negate that Demi-Urge himself mentioned it as being an unwise way of ruling.

I never said anything about using fear to rule. I am talking about Demiurge's evil trait and mind.

Tiger cant help but to eat the rabbits because it is their instinct.

Demiurge always chose the most evil methods to handle the situation with no remorse.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Fwarlord is the one who insisted that
1. Ainz needed the nobles to cooperate.
2. Killing lots of people was somehow helpful for that.

I rejected point 2 and merely indulged point 1. Because the thing is, he didn't purge corrupt nobles. He purged random bozos unrelated to political power. Or do you think the deaths of the Workers will in any way legitimize his future conquests?

Also, why do you draw such a distinction between non-humans and humans? Why would something be good enough for Nagas or Lizardmen, but not for Humans?

Yes, the Worker's death are part of the process to gain legitimization. They were "part 2" of the plan after recruiting Fluder. It was a set-up for part 3, which was to invite Jircniv to the tomb for the diplomatic talks. If they skipped the Worker part, and just sent Aura and Mare with the dragon directly, the result wouldn't be any good. They'd just be viewed as hostile invaders, like regular monsters, who want to simply bask in their superiority and Jircniv might have actually refused to go to the tomb with the thought of "it wouldn't make any difference anyway", escpacially since unlike the actual case he wouldn't have a scapegoat noble's head prepared.

But the fact that Ainz was doing things in response instead of attacking first, showed that Ainz is NOT going out of his way to kill everyone on first sight.

So yes, to be taken as a "resonable" individual was a good reason to do this. Might seem like it's not worth it at first glance, but imagine what would happen if Jircniv didn't go to Nazarick? It would be a disaster, because Nazarick would either truly become hostile monsters by attacking the Empire, or would be seen as push-overs because they retreated. It would be even worse than simply doing nothing.

Originally Posted by Sixth

I never said anything about using fear to rule. I am talking about Demiurge's evil trait and mind.

Tiger cant help but to eat the rabbits because it is their instinct.

Demiurge always chose the most evil methods to handle the situation with no remorse.

But Demi-Urge has shown that he can distinguish between "random outsiders" and "those on his side". Even if he considers most humans as "little insects" like most others from Nazarick do, he still can make the distinction between "random little insects" and "little insects that belong to Ainz-sama".

All the ones Demi-Urge has been treating badly up to now have been "random outsiders" and the one instance he could have back-handedly done something malicious to someone who "belongs" to Ainz, he did NOT treat them badly. If he did, he would have pulled a "prank" that would result in Enri's, Nphrea's and Nemu's meals to have some "minced human body parts" in them. Yet he didn't but rather treated the matter of their meals with sincerity, without assuming that Ainz actually wants to do bad things to them.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Yes, the Worker's death are part of the process to gain legitimization. They were "part 2" of the plan after recruiting Fluder. It was a set-up for part 3, which was to invite Jircniv to the tomb for the diplomatic talks. If they skipped the Worker part, and just sent Aura and Mare with the dragon directly, the result wouldn't be any good. They'd just be viewed as hostile invaders, like regular monsters, who want to simply bask in their superiority and Jircniv might have actually refused to go to the tomb with the thought of "it wouldn't make any difference anyway", escpacially since unlike the actual case he wouldn't have a scapegoat noble's head prepared.

But the fact that Ainz was doing things in response instead of attacking first, showed that Ainz is NOT going out of his way to kill everyone on first sight.

So yes, to be taken as a "resonable" individual was a good reason to do this. Might seem like it's not worth it at first glance, but imagine what would happen if Jircniv didn't go to Nazarick? It would be a disaster, because Nazarick would either truly become hostile monsters by attacking the Empire, or would be seen as push-overs because they retreated. It would be even worse than simply doing nothing.

Or, he could have just opened diplomatic relations normally and sent an invitation. Especially with Fluder already in his pocket.

[moridin84]

I'm curious about this utopia thing.

So what exactly would this utopia under Ainz look like?

I just have trouble thinking of a society built on absolute obedience to an immortal "god emperor" as a utopia.

I also have trouble imaging a society with humans and monsters working together harmoniously.

I've seen it done it other stories of course but they were more idealistic. Overlord is full of dreadful people, both human and monsters. Can they really get along?