2015-04-13, 16:48
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Link #35061 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Inbuilt, I think if we are going with the notion that EP7 tea party is not the truth, then shouldn't EP2 be Prime then, since like I said numerous times already, the only game that Battler would have learned EVERYTHING? Now you might be asking, "if that is Prime, why is Eva dead? Why is she alive in the future?". Well there isn't any proof that the future world is the real world and the only perspective is Ange's perspective (someone who is probably on acid), which is subjective.
I'd also suggest looking up KNM's Umineko explained video part 4, where he makes a meta-world and future world theory. There are parts that have Rosatrice there, but still, the concept of this part of his theory is applicable to Sayotrice (or any theory). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqp3hMV6_fE#t=50m22s |
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2015-04-13, 17:06
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Link #35062 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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part 4
The locked room in Prime I am right with this! Now I even found a sentence that literally says it exists.
First I gotta announce that from now on, Ill follow my Battler in a locked-room theory. There are various reasons now, not just what is said in ep 6. I am now completely sure this happened. But even though I explained it ad nauseam already, I still will mention the most important (not all) clues, because this is important to understand why Battler fell into the depth of oblivion in the first place and what his goal is in the game. First the little clues in ep 8 interlude: Long hair: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_.../c024.5/5.html not looking like 18: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...c024.5/14.html and the calender is shown everyone + internet is already used the room in ep 4 is mentioned to be pitch black, filled with torture and restraining devices. Manga page: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/15/38 this room cant be found-iron bars represent that. Ep 4- the room under the Kuwadorian: Spoiler for quote vn:
Ok, so that there is no one who can say I randomly take scenes to be hints, I want to show that over and over again, we find the same elements in closed rooms. Those rooms at the same time refer to other facts-Ill mark it again. Ill start with a “room” in ep 5: Ep 5 when Gaap hides the corpses of Jessica and the others in a special place: Spoiler for quote vn:
Here some interesting things: this place is literally not part of this world,this can be understood as: not part of Battlers mind-world but part of reality. Then theres the statement that everything leads to there, but nothing leads away – this is a room you cant get out of, but EVERY scene we see leads to there, cause here we find the origin of the meta. Same with the times. Its Battlers mind-world after all, or better: its Beatos, but that is more or less the same anyways  Ill mention the buying time stuff later.Then we have Natsuhi in the closet: Spoiler for quote vn:
battlers locked room scene in ep 6: Spoiler for quote vn:
Same room, when Battler loses against Erika: Spoiler for quote vn:
When Kanon saves him Spoiler for quote vn:
Ep 4 Rosa finds herself in some place she doesnt know: Spoiler for quote vn:
What they have in common: We have the iron bars, we know its pitch black there,its cold, and we have the eternal silence, the people who arelocked up don’t know where this is and there is naivety mentioned, Battlers trademark That Kyrie, Krauss etc. in ep 4 they reached this place by going through Gaaps pit is also interesting, because this now hints directly at the place where Gaap hides the corpses in ep5 – the place no human can find – the same as the room in ep 4.Ep 4: the room was forgotten – not that hard to understand what that refers to Theres the fear mentioned by Krauss in ep 4 that those devices might be used to do some harm to you, just as Natsuhi in ep 5 is afraid that someone might do something horrible to her. Theres the statement that you would run, and “Kinzos” mad love that goes so far as to want to imprison the person you love and binding her in chains – for example like this: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/18/43 But I dont know if this is only a metaphor for the chain lock yet. Natsuhi and Battler both have the resolve to fight/leave this room. Also-the time flows different – shown in ep 5 with Gaaps room: “what time is it” is an unnecessary question. We also have this mentioned in natsuhis closet-room, and we have kanon mentioning that years have passed in Battlers room. also Jessica ep 7:”Does being in darkness really slow us humans down so much?” Natsuhi and Battler both are frightened, and with Natsuhis statement: fear-> anger, imo Battlers statement : “these witches know I get angry easily” can be interpreted a bit differently. There are still other points, for Rosas room for example I already mentioned the part with the face and that Battlers hurt at his head: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...c024.5/13.html http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...c024.5/27.html What I still want to emphasize is this: Battlers: If I turn around…the witch gazing into the room from the darkness outside…might be inside the room this time, standing right behind me… Vs. Natsuhis: The culprit…or one of his accomplices, is very close by. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be able to observe me so thoroughly. Vs. Erikas actions in ep 5: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/21/51 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/21/52 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/21/55 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/21/56 That it is Erika here makes much sense btw. This Ill explain later. I also want to mention the chains we see all the time -in ep 2 ending -we see it being used as a motive in ep 4 manga (http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/22/22) -ep 5 Beato is bound by a chain to the chair -there are collars mentioned in ep 4 like I quoted above - in ep 6 manga chains are shown in the marriage with Erika -the old Beatrice is shown in chains in the manga -and in the locked room in ep 6 we also have chains - they are mentioned by Beato in ep 4 “but Kinzo, no more binding me with a collar”, -and we have Ange and Lion in ep 7 bound by chains to a chair so they are forced to watch the play. Chains and chairs seem to be important. Rosa in her scene in ep 4 also mentions the study chair – so she either falls asleep on the floor or in a chair…Since this scene refers to Battlers situation in the locked room anyways, this makes sense. And if we think about how Kinzos study is his place to go back to in the meta once he becomes the territory loard, it would make sense that he thinks about a chair in the study |
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2015-04-13, 17:19
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Link #35063 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Quote:
The manga ep 8 says in red that Rudolf and Kyrie killed everyone. Of course I thought that this could also be a truth that refers to only one game. But there is so much talk about a mixture between truths and lies, and also: Battler became the family head in prime...I dont know...its still possible that this is all a lie, but the fact remains that they are all dead at the end. But if you have any clues Id be glad to read them! |
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2015-04-13, 17:27
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Link #35064 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Quote:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/42.html |
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2015-04-13, 17:46
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Link #35065 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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part 5
Death wish
And then we have the death wish. Heres a scene in ep 7 when Will asks Rosa about her encounter with Beatrice: Spoiler for quote vn:
Compare: Rosas I wanted to disappear into the forest and vanish forever…. Vs. Natsuhis: If only I could just melt away into the darkness of this closet….! I already mentioned all the scenes with the headaches, so I wont do it again, just this: Natsuhi in ep 5: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/13/18 and in the VN: "Aah if my head…is wracked in suffering anyway…Please just let my head explode right now." Vs. Touyas various: my heads splitting. And Anges in ep 8: Spoiler for quote vn:
Again, this is Ange talking, but at the same time Battler. I already mentioned this with the Single-truth-scene when Ange reads the diary. This all refers to Battler as well. When hes in the locked room in ep 6, he needs someone to come for him. They emphasize that he cant get out by himself. So he waited and believed that someone from his family would come back. And appearantly, he waited for quite a while… I already mentioned the scene in ep 5 in an earlier post where Beato is encouraging Natsuhi: Spoiler for quote vn:
Natsuhi has the will to fight, but she starts to give up. Battler mentions really often that he is tired. Even Touya mentions that. But Ill come to that later. This why isn’t my husband here right now of course is very similar to Battlers “Where..is my whole family” in ep 4, when hes still in the depth of oblivion. And the Beato-encouraging-aspect also did happen in a similar way. But Ill leave that for later. That means: He held onto his belief that someone would come for him, and how Kanon states: I could tell at a glance just how hard he had tried until the final moment when his heart had died. Im quoting his thoughts about wanting to get out of the room from ep 6 – which is really not much : "Let me out…of this room…help me. Im scared Im scared Im scared, let me out let me out, help me help me help me…" Also ep 6 when Erika defeated him, his reaction also shows how desperately he wants someone to come to help him.:http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/19/35 In the end as Battler puts it “surrendered to the miracle that refused to happen” and he chose to die while at least learning the truth. This is why he thinks the following when he surrendered to EVA-Beatrice in ep 3: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/19/59 It’s a “choice” he made, EVA in ep 8 also talks about the choice “Ange” made. “Ange, you managed to die.” After learning of the truth, and thereby having to abandon his belief that someone will come for him, Battler goes to the depth of oblivion – forgets everything but is still trapped in this nightmare. This is – now I FINALLY got it – what they call hell. In hell you abandon all your hope. And like Lambda says: Prepare yourself while you can…for the eternity of the hell youll be in when you’ve given up…but still cannot escape. And this state is what Lambda etc. always simultaneously refer at when they say hell be trapped in a closed room he created himself. And Beato then helps him to get out. Battler - new family head part 2 Anyways, heres finally the part where it shows what happened in prime, and where it shows that Battler is indeed the family head at the end. Later I explain how you can prove that this really happened. First I wane quote ep 7: Spoiler for quote vn:
This is all Kinzo talking, but I want to show now what parts are shown to relate to Battlers situation, I could amost mark the whole text. Ill start with the more obvious stuff: 1)Kinzo mentions a difference between body and mind – Touya ep 8: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...c024.5/15.html That’s because people become “slow” in the darkness as Jessica puts it. 2) like moss growing on a rock, ep 4 Bern: "I scraped him up together when he was getting muddy and almost dispersing at the bottom of the darkness" 3) Though I spent so many days as though I had been killed…I was not killed, that’s pretty much the depth-of-oblivion-death as it is said in ep 5- dying does not really mean to die in a literal sense but more to stop thinking 4) Before I realized it, I reached an age at which the young would laugh at me if I tried to call myself young – Natsuhi in the closet in ep 5 mentions she isn’t young anymore – in Battlers stead 5) summoned to Odawara – "summoned" to Kinzos Golden Land 6) locking myself in my own world…- I already mentioned what the “closed room you yourself created” refers to 7) doing nothing but playing with roses and drinking terrible drinks – this is actually quite interesting. I don’t know yet, but there has to be a reason this is mentioned explicitly. He drinks Ronoves black tea the whole time, but I don’t know why they would explicitly mention what he drinks…but the roses hint! I just got that ad hoc! Roses: Ok, we know the Roses are a metaphor for the stories. All the roses are beautiful except for one-and this one is marked (ep 7 tea party). I thought at first they referred to the family, but in ep 8 we have this scene: Spoiler for quote vn:
They are referring to the stories that are written about them obviously. So Battler playing with roses either means the games itself 8)I suddenly had a wife I did not know. It wasn’t a wife I had chosen. It was the daughter of some noble family that the elders had chosen and forced on me for their own reason – Battler somewhat marries Erika. And he sure didn’t choose her as his wife. She was selected by "the elders" for their own reasons- we know Bernkastels reasons for arranging the marriage. 10) Ah I forgot, he also says: I fathered some children. This is important for later 11) Then I spent a time long enough to create a human… - Ok,heres the question about the amount of years battler spent there - I thought of 3 options 1) six years (obvious why I thought of that) 2) 12 years like Ange 3)20 years like Kinzo says here. My reasoning was that Ange tried to contact visit Touya and Ikuko when she was 18, and Touya was already living with Ikuko for quite some time at this point, so I thought 6 years would have been a good guess. But since this probably never happened, there would be no reason to stick to it. But the way Battler talks about himself in the end, that his body has grown old, it doesn’t sound like only 6 years passed. Its probably more like Featherine implied in ep 6: Beatrice was dead for decade(s?). And since this is the point when he gets out …maybe…it would be 20. Well, I leave this open for now. 12) Yes, on some level, I did feel as though I was being slowly and quietly killed – compare with: Last panel of http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/3/34 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/3/35 Now the more hidden stuff: These sentences are important: I became the rope in the tug of war between the elders, who thought of nothing but their own profit I spent a time long enough to create a human…by doing nothing except playing the part of those greedy elders puppet The ‘Head of the Ushiromiya family’was just a name.It had no power. It didn’t require that I have any independence. There was no need for me to get involved with anything. I was just a doll sitting there on the doll rack, gathering dust.. Everything was decided by someone other than me, and I simply obeyed. That was the job…of the ‘Ushiromiya family head’… Will: “Living means having your own will…you probably were dead during that time.” The elders are: Bernkastel and Lambdadelta respectively their "pieces" Beato and Erika. Bern and Lambda are called witches of the high senate for a reason These elders later on select a wife for him as well. And with that and other clues we get who battler really is “fighting” against (more like doing nothing) in real life. And its not Beato.But Ill leave that for later.now Im too tired, Ill continue tomorrow.. |
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2015-04-14, 03:53
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Link #35066 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 6
"You dont have to do anything"
So Battler in real life does absolutely nothing on his own. Heres the confirmation: In Ep 5, when Battler reaches the truth, we see scenes flashing by that give us hints about the truth. One is from ep 3, Belphegor trying to murder Rudolf: “Its useless to try and resist or escape…You don’t need to think about anything” Exactly the same words we find several times! And now Im connecting it to the beginning of these posts. Cause with this we can explain something, Im sure no one else could explain well (or even tried to). If we take a look at the Ange scene I mentioned at the very beginning in ep 8, after she killed herself and wakes up in the Golden Land, “Ange” (=Battler) says this: “Did I…come home because I was supposed to…?...Ill…go back to how Im supposed to be, and then…” Rudolf: No, you did come home. Kyrie: That’s right. You made it back here because you wanted to come home to us. This shows that he has no own will anymore in real life. That’s why he uses this “supposed to” here. But Rudolf and Kyrie confirm for him that it was by his own will that he reached the Golden Land. The lyrics from innana no mita yume come to mind “ishi wa ubaware yuku” (your will is stolen). So in reality, being locked in the room, Battler doesn’t do anything. The state of a puppet is also mentioned by Erika in ep 6 and for Beato in ep 5- after you fall into the depth of oblivion you become a puppet. This being a puppet and having everything decided by someone else is also mentioned by Kinzo in ep 7, like I quoted above. And now remember what Rosa said about overhearing a secret between her mother and her tutor. We already saw in the scene with Ange in ep 8, that “mother” in Battlers case can be substituted by “Beato”. And in reality he also has a “tutor” who tells him what he is allowed to do and what not. One thing he is not allowed to do is speak. For example Kyries “even if Im not allowed to speak” (which was completely random in the context of ep 6 btw refers to Battler in reality, that’s one thing this tutor prohibits. That’s the whole gag-thing that Virgilia in ep 4 (see above) refers to. That’s why in the Ange-wakes-up-in-golden-land-scene they all encourage him to speak with their “say something!”. And he himself first has to get used to this and says “Ill …say it out loud”. We all know who has tutor-like character traits “stand up, on one leg, please…” Its not a random guess, its indeed confirmed that Erika exists in reality in ep 6. I leave that for later.Also, concerning lyrics, theres the "spoiler-song" VII by Shikata Akiko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn2aeJYxemo The translation is relatively good there. I just copy it: Spoiler for Lyrics VII:
I don’t think there is anything left to explain with the lyrics. The answer to the question “Do you have the resolution to accept reality?” was simply "no", and the result was the fall to the depth of oblivion and the creation of the meta by Beato. Oh and remember how Kinzo didn’t want to become the head of the family? Neither did Battler in ep 5. Ep 7 Kinzo: Spoiler for quote vn:
This also fits. From the point on when Battler remembers everything in ep 5, Beato never calls him Ushiromiya Battler. When Erika does so in ep 6, Battler immediately replies he shouldn’t call him by his full name. -> Battler in Prime has become the puppet-family-head. ( and there is yet another BIG clue for that that I leave for later) Beato Sorry, this part is a bit convoluted and there might be some assumptions that I have to give up on if I find more clues Now the part about who Beato really is. Took me a while to realize this, especially because ep 7 was more misleading than helpful. Ill quote ep 7 Will: Spoiler for quote vn:
In ep 4 we already see two different Beatos on the balcony-scene – Beatrice the Elder and the Chick-Beato. They are two separate identities but at the same time, they are the same person “It was certainly the same witch”. Seems that Ryukishi really likes this convoluted stuff :S The way I see it is that the "kinder" one is chick-beato and the more cruel one is Beatrice the elder. And the one who originally arranges the games is Chick-Beato. And this Beato was Battlers piece: We have a red truth from the chick beato: “I was born for Fathers sake.” I know that the differentiation is difficult, because after all, those two are the same person, but the way I see it, he had his “own” Beatrice. Like Featherine mentions in ep 6: "Almost as though…Beatrice was Battlers piece”. And here are the hints that show this too us: 1)first of all, to create such a fantasy-piece you would need to create a universe/summoning space. I already mentioned in a previous post how Battler shouldn’t have a problem with that since he basically only sees a huge black space. That was the point of the Ange-Maria-Summoning-Scene in ep 4 in the first place. Notice how Beato the chick in ep 6 is born from a black world: Spoiler for quote vn:
2)The hints we find in ep 3: Last panel: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/16/49 And because of that, this can happen: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/11 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/12 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/13 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/14 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/15 This is important, because chick-beato is more or less Kanon in that scene, and Beato is more or less Beato the Elder. But they are also the same person. And like kanon, Beato is only an illusion. Now this part is still a bit difficult for me to understand, but the mother of Chick-Beato was probably Sayo or the Beatrice-personality of Sayo that Battler met before in Prime. So his illusion of Beato is in a way granted by Beato-Sayo, there always have to be two persons for Beato to appear after all. So we have now kinda two Beatos-the one in Sayos mind and the one in Battlers mind. “That witch has told me about your predicament. She has given me just a little bit of time so that I can help you”. The situation is just the same as with Battlers situation. http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/21 -> There is a time limit! And this time limit is there because Beatrice the Elder is fighting to keep the "evil witch" from "entering the closed room". http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/32 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/33 This is all so convoluted (the same with Sayo, beato, kanon and Shannon), that Im not completely sure yet. But I guess that can be an explanation. Because in ep 6 we saw that Beato the Elder had no emotions for Battler, even though Beato the Elder was created by Sayo and in ep 7 we see that it is Beato the Elder who suffers the whole time – see Wills reasoning above. So its like Beato the Elder and Chick-Beato became one and distributed their characteristics. Battlers is human, and Sayos Beato is a witch. But Battlers Beato is still afraid of mirrors like Sayo was. So I guess this mixture between the two of them is the best explanation. Then we have ep 7 Sayo in the Golden Land when she reveals her plans to the adults: “I already killed Beatrice”, and that may be true kind of, but as we know, Beatrice cant die that easily: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/52 Its important how Eva-Beatrice wonders how its even possible that Beato is still alive, because they were already killing her, as the Siesta sisters said before. In any case, at one point, Battler saw the illusion of Chick-Beato. So Chick-Beato appearing before him makes him part of Mariage Sorciere, That’s why in ep 4 beato regrets having Battler allowed to become part of this alliance. Beato being Battlers delusion is also shown various times: Ep 5 when Battler reaches the truth: Spoiler for quote vn:
Or in ep 6 when Lambda etc. vanish from the room Spoiler for quote vn:
Same with what Lambda says in her fear of boredom, that they might all just be delusions. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-14 at 08:44. |
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2015-04-14, 04:31
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Link #35067 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 7
So while this situation is still a bit unclear, Im sure with the next one:
Look at the complete episode 3, in which the main point is that another witch became Beatos successor – the new Beatrice. The new Beatrice is EVA-Beatrice in ep 3. In reality its someone else. In tea party ep 7 we also heard that Beatrice was killed by "Sayo". Beatrice at this point shouldn’t exist anymore. She is no longer a witch or at least very frail. There is a new witch now in Sayos mind. Ill say it clearly: And the new witch in reality is the "tutor"- "Erika". And this is the person that the lyrics of VII refer to and that locked Battler up and still continued the game even though Beato already “lost” or better: got her miracle. Ill give you more proof: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/37 See how EVA-Beatrice is far more cruel than Beato herself at this state. In confessions we learned that this Beato/Sayo there didn’t really want to do what she did, but she felt she was forced to by her own rules. “I want to know what happened” - something happened that made Beato change. This was probably Battler finding the gold. Anyways, it was this Beato that created the message bottles, but it was "Erika" that read the contents with Rudolf and Kyrie as culprits aloud to Battler. That’s what Beato says in ep 8 (to "Ange"): “All of it is my fault. The message bottle I threw away half-jokingly caused a distortion in your future and wore you down”. I dont know what exactly in this version is truth and what is a lie, but in prime the true culprit is still Sayo. At the beginning Beato planned everthing, she “lost/won”, but the Erika-personality still continued the game as her resurrection ceremony or just because shes crazy XD Resurrection And NOW, since this text is taking so damn long to write, I already found the ring-clue that Touya is talking about at the end!!! Look at this: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/15/7 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/15/8 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/15/9 George=Beato, Sayo=Battler. See how “George” talks about a dream, and how Beatrice also had a dream – mentioned in the beginning of ep 7 by Virgilia. You don’t really have to ask who Ikuko is now….Battler and Beato met. The way I see it, what “George” talks about, that he shed his old self, and he became who he is now, happened after Battler was locked up. Remember ep 2, when “Shannon” says the world is beautiful if you don’t think about the fact that youre living in a fish tank. “George” showed “Shannon” that the sea is blue not gray, and compare that to the “gray days” that Kinzo mentioned in episode 7 when he was the head of the family. So Beato was quite a while together with Battler. “You’ve given me a wonderful life. And have given me all those moments of happiness.” (“George”). EVEN NOW I EXIST FOR YOUR SAKE (“George”) – same thing Chick-Beato says. But later Battler “died”. I already explained how. http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/11 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/12 Spoiler for quote manga:
Well, Beato resurrects Battler and she will be killed by him, because that’s how the game will end. She sacrificed herself for him to remember everything and for him to be able to leave the depth of oblivion again. That’s whats hinted at at the end of ep 3 when Battler gave up and Beato had to sacrifice herself. http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/15 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/50 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/51 Beato was a witch at first, but then she threw away her witch side, so she would be accepted by Battler (as “George” says in the manga). Later on “George” has to turn to magic again. And with this, Battler is resurrected. Beato gave up everything she had.. And heres the ring clue!!! http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/14 Also: “George” worries about what will happen to “Shannons” corpse, because resurrection would then be impossible. Now remember what Chick-Beato says when Battler is in the locked room in ep 6- that they need to bring back his mind first, stealing his body would be of no use, cause Bern is there. Beato cant go against Bern…We know why… Battler got the Ushiromiya-Head-Ring from Beato. It was probably Sayo-Beato who gave him the ring. This Beato is later mixed into the Chick-Beato. So this basically means Battler found the gold and granted Sayo the miracle she feared would never come true. Beatrice lost her magical powers or better said: she was no longer Beatrice, but a human - > chick beato is a human but still afraid of mirrors – and another witch became her successor in Sayos mind. But that also means that Eva could never have had the ring, and neither could have Ange. This is probably the "distortion in the future" that Beato refers to in ep 8. So that would make Ange full fiction again. I know that this is bound to be controversial , but just so to to support this Ange=fiction claim a bit –Virgilia says that the world that comes after accepting one certain truth is formed based on the final remaining truth. And if we really think along the lines "locked room -> influences all the times", then this would make sense I guess? That would still make Ange Battlers delusion though… Also “George" says he would even be willing to incur the wrath of the gods to resurrect “Shannon”. And the gods are Lambdadelta and Bernkastel. http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/15/12 Scenes in ep 6 There is an interesting scene in Battlers game in ep 6. This game shows that he understood Beatos/Sayos heart, so we can be pretty sure this refers to her heart even without additional clues. Spoiler for quote vn:
That’s a bit difficult, but this “referee”, “neutral party” and the “turn the discussion in a direction I want” COULD refer to Lambdadelta. She often plays the role of the judge, observes, and both parties trust her. And she was able to grant Sayos wish to be a witch. She also tries to help Beato/Battler get their happy ending. But it can also be Sayo/Yasuda, with her three siblings being Beato, Kanon and Shannon. They talk about “god” the whole time after all. Then the direction she wants would be the person she wants to be with the most? Something like that. Ep 6 Kyrie vs. Jessica: Spoiler for quote vn:
This part in Battlers game imo refers to the fact that the meta is a “closed room”. There can be interference, but nothing more.And being in a closed room isn’t necessarily a bad thing, because it works as a form of protection.. The next question would of course be "against what" you would need protection. Ep 3 at least tells us that Beatrice created a barrier against “EVA-Beatrice”. The kind of interference that is possible is shown with Beatos state in ep 5. But then Jessica still gets into the room by using magic… To be continued... Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-14 at 12:08. |
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2015-04-14, 09:23
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Link #35068 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 8
Erika
And in this context I find the role for Erika in the game quite interesting. Because there are actually some weird things that she does and says: Ep 6 Erika: Spoiler for quote vn:
Dlanor ep 6 after Erika was shot: Spoiler for quote vn:
Erika ep 6 Erika to Battler: Spoiler for quote vn:
Erika ep 6 just before she is shot to death to Battler: Spoiler for quote vn:
Battler&Beato before they shoot Erika: Spoiler for quote vn:
Erikas reaction: Spoiler for quote vn:
So its pretty obvious who Erika is now, I guess: 1. http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/21/56 + 2.ep 6 in the closed room: "If I turn around…the witch gazing into the room from the darkness outside..might be inside the room this time, standing right behind me…Im frightenend…Im scared Im scared Im scared…" + 2.Natsuhis in the closet: "I don’t want to be found. I don’t want to be found. In that case….if he opens the closet door…and sees me crouching here pathetically…just what kind of fearsome words will he say…?" = http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/16/53 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/17/4 Soooo, Erika in reality is the successor of Beatrice- she is represented by EVA-Beatrice in ep 3. It cant be a coincidence that she is always described as a spider, when spiders in Umineko are shown to be the enemy of butterflies. And now its important to remember Erikas back-story, about a guy cheating on her. And her finding countless evidences for that in his room. That’s the story Yasu/”the god” gives to Erika. The main point is: She thinks her guy is cheating on her with another woman and she is envious. Also in her eyes he was a big a*** at the end when he told her to just go die and all that stuff. And who shes envies and why is also made clear. It’s the relationship between Beato and Battler. Like I said, Beato already must have had some form of relationship with Battler in his delusion-land, they were probably still friends then. This happened before the fall to the depth of oblivion. And the Erika-personality of Sayo was envious of that. I know this sounds weird if I just write it like that, but there are TONS of evidence for who Erika is. “Ahhah, so you have to flirt right in front of me!! Its pissing me off. …” Also she says this to Battler: “It seems you have bad luck with women. …Youll never get a normal one to like you….” That’s basically saying that she is one of those unnormal women that “like” him, or better said: she doesnt like him, its more like shes obsessed with him.. Erika is at the same time the part of Sayo that hates Battler. That’s why she says at the beginning of the wedding: “: Don’t worry, I wont love you forver.” The part that loves him is Beatrice, and her saying that she wont love him is kinda like saying that she wont become Beatrice. At the end of ep 6 then she understands who she is. “Then though neither side spoke…did they both know what trump card the other would use…? - Yes, they know. I am…the Witch of Truth, Furudo Erika….The Witch of Truth…is the witch….who can withstand the truth…Now…I can finally…accept the real truth about myself…The toxin of having her own concept denied ran through her.” And then we have of course the duel between Erika and Beato, which is hold the same way as the one between Kanon and Shannons. It cant be over until one of those two dies. At the same time the duel occurs in the meta, theres something happening in real life. After all, Erika says this to Battler: “….Congratulations on your resurrection.” I know one might think that only refers to the meta, but take a look at the Kinzo and Beatrice scene in ep 7 when Yamamoto is about to shoot Beatrice: Spoiler for quote vn:
Thats why in ep 6 Beato closes her eyes before they pull the trigger. Also: Battler HAS to pull the trigger together with Beato, because that’s what he does at the same time in reality. Beato is just a delusion after all. In Our Confession when Shannon is killed by Beato, its the same In reality at the same time, Battler kills “Erika” =Sayo, that’s why he asks: “Beato…Are you sure?” And Beato answers: …Yes, I don’t mind…Lets at least pull the final trigger together. But he assures her they’ll be together- Beato doesn’t die at that time in Battlers world, though she definitely has now no body anymore that she can rely on. Or said like that: Beato was born out of Sayo and she became one with Battlers delusion-Beato. But within Sayo, she was more or less replaced by Erika. In this sense, they shoot Beatos body when they shoot Sayo. And of course, only Battler could kill her cause theres no one else on the island.Heres a nice scene from ep 7 that shows what happens in reality:“Kinzo” says to “Yamamoto” (the otherwise completely random line): Spoiler for quote vn:
And theres yet another hint that this is correct. When Featherine confirms what happened on Rokkenjima and says she understood the epitaph riddle, there is one thing she still doesn’t fully get, that is the last part of the 4 rewards: letting the witch sleep in peace. BUT: she says that if she investigates this ON ROKKENJIMA, she will certainly find out what that means. And the way I see it, is that youll certainly find that out if you personally went to take a look - that is Sayo being dead. So in a sense: by exposing Beatos or rather Sayos heart, Erika is denied and the witch is killed, and Sayo can finally rest in peace. And yet another hint that shows that. We can find it in the relationship between Maria and Rosa. Honestly, basically EVERYTHING is a hint in the games. The Rosatrice-fans weren’t actually THAT far off. Rosa is not Beatrice/Sayo, but she represents her/acts her role in the games: http://www.mangareader.net/557-30803...chapter-4.html Rosa is a good and a bad witch. She has both sides to her at the same time. She loves Maria, but at the same time she says stuff like this to Maria: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/15/24 |
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2015-04-14, 09:47
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Link #35069 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 9
The scene in ep 4 where Rosa is killed off various times by Maria I might have to change some things about this interpretation later on
This scene in ep 4 is pretty hard to understand because it switches the roles around. For example, you can read also read this scene as describing the Sayo-Beato-Battler-relationsship. Here for example: Spoiler for quote vn:
And earlier in the scene it is not Rosa=Sayo but Rosa=Battler and later on Rosa=Erika, probably…Because that scene is so hard to understand!! But its important to understand, what happened exactly. Ill start with the middle of the scene in ep 4: Spoiler for quote vn:
I never thought that the fact Sakutarou was a birthday present was important. But now that I started to see that basically everything is important, manybe we can read it like that: With 07151129 we have another birthday mentioned –the birthday of Battler and Beato. And we know that Sayo created the games and wrote this number everywhere. If we link it to the birthday-present, Sakutarou represents the game-boards that Sayo made in this scene. The only alternative I see is that Sakutarou=Beato. But here: Spoiler for quote vn:
Here its more like Rosa= Battler. This is a bit mixed up itself, the way I see it the scene didn’t happened like this in reality, but it’s a mix of earlier and later events. The waking up somewhere in a place you don’t know occurs at the beginning, but the “Im only able to be me because Marias there for me…!” comes later, after Battler and Beato already formed some kind of relationship. Then the “Maria is here…but shes not Maria now” occurs earlier again, after Beato was “killed” in prime, or at least has a successor now with EVA-Beatrice/Erika in Sayos mind. Then this: Spoiler for quote vn:
I dont know but we probably (yes, I have to use this word often here) can read it like Beato is about to be replaced by Erika somehow. And the “I don’t know, Im not your Mama…!!Go away…! Disappear!!” – shows Battlers attempt to deny Beato, even though there is no malice in her. Until here I really tried different readings for example with the Sayo-story we get in ep 7, I tried to read it as if it were referring to a Sayo-Beato-relationship. But that doesn’t make any sense. Again: since the purpose of Beatos games is to make Battler remember everything, I don’t think we should leave the text as it is and not look further into it. So it has to hint at something like this, but Im still unsure about this scene. Next part is this: Spoiler for quote vn:
We have the two sides of Rosa here again – or better: the two sides of Sayo. One side wants to apologize and feels like a mother the other side starts hitting Maria. The nice reference to Sayo can also be seen in the sentence:” Even I had lots of toys and treasure stolen, broken, made fun of, and thrown away by my brothers and sister and Father and Mother…!!” I don’t think I need to mention what she means with her treasure being stolen and broken. The Father is of course Kinzo, Mother is Natsuhi and the brothers and sisters are the servants of Fukuin House. It can mean two different things: one could be that Maria=Battler, but the thing with " and it was all Marias fault in the first place…!! Since she was too busy playing with stuffed animals all the time like this, she couldn’t make any friends, and is treated like a weirdo…" seems to hint more at a Sayo-Beato relationship. |
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2015-04-14, 10:04
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Link #35070 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 10
Battler = new family head part 3
And then we have these sentences in the scene I mentioned in part 9: "This is a good opportunity, for instructive guidance!" and "THAT I WAS ABLE TO BECOME THE WONDERFUL ADULT I AM NOW!!!" If we consider that the two sides of Rosa=two sides of Sayo, in the end the second side that hates Maria takes over in this scene, the side of a tutor. At the beginning I mentioned that Battler too must have had some kind of “tutor” in prime, and that is basically the new “evil witch EVA” in Sayo. I think you can interpret it that way that Maria in the scenes where Rosa hits her is Sayos good side=Beato. The statements: “Because you are like that, you are so weird, you don’t have any friends!” certainly sound like that. But then Rosas switching to the “good witch” cant be read like that.... In any case, Im leaving this scene now because its very confusing. We have more relieable info of this mother-instructor-business in ep 6 and in ep 8. First ep 6: When George chooses Eva as his sacrifice in Battlers game: Spoiler for quote vn:
First until here: Sun Wukong wanting to be god= Battler finding the gold Sealed away=locked up to think you can escape from the palm of my hand=Beatos game ending with a certain outcome but EVA-Beatrice=Erika-personality appearantly didn’t want that and continued the game Spoiler for quote vn:
That resembles very much Natuhis reason for locking Jessica up in a closet – so she would reflect on her mistakes. Also Battler says in ep 6, like I mentioned above, this line when he is in the locked room: Spoiler for quote vn:
Also in the EVA-George scene in ep 6: Spoiler for quote vn:
This is sooooooo referring to Battler being Sayos/Erikas puppet in reality and having lost his will. To which George answers (in Battlers stead) in ep 6: Spoiler for quote vn:
I think I don’t need to mention what Battler wants to say with these lines in his game. Also in ep 6, when Lambda says before battler causes the logic-error: “You wont get away with an apology”. Battler answers: “Yeah, I don’t intend to apologize”. And during the marriage, Erika then wants Battler to apologize, but he still refuses to do that. So we have the whole instructor/tutor-thing explained, why Battler doesn’t talk and cry in the beginning in the scene where "Ange" wakes up in Golden Land in ep 8. In ep 8 then “Ange” refers to Eva as mother and as the one friend she always had. Now here in ep 5: Spoiler for quote vn:
Mother in ep 8 is Eva for Ange, if we transfer the scene to Battler, its Beato that he embraces there. So here “mother”=Beato. Mother is often used to refer to Beato btw. , same for example with the Rosa-business. So “mother” read a book for Battler, probably a kind of message-bottle in which everyone survived so he hoped someone would come for him. And he believed that for a long, long time. But then "someone" said that he was wrong. This someone is of course Erika in Prime, that’s why she is called the Witch of Truth. And why she says her master has only given her the ability to get rid of her own pain by exposing the truth to other people. Beato in a way lied to Battler and Erika was right when she said that everyone was dead. But Erikas truth was still a mixture between truth and lies when she said that Rudolf and Kyrie were the culprits. They maybe killed everyone (depends on how much of the tea-party is true) but they aren’t the culprits. |
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2015-04-14, 10:38
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Link #35071 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Part 11
More scenes to support my conclusions
1. Buying time Ep 5 when they hide the corpses: Spoiler for quote vn:
That is the reason Beato created the cat box. To buy time, just like Beato in ep 3 buys time for Kanon and Jessica to talk to each other. She buys time until Battler remembers everything. 2. "Come,kill me, your first and last friend" Oh and before Battler went to the depth of oblivion he saw magic and maybe he even saw his family, that’s why everyone in ep 5 said that he came back home and that he finally remembered. Because when “Erika” told him the “truth” after some time, he denied the magic and his kind family as well, like its hinted at in the scene in ep 8 where Ange tries to kill herself. This is what happens in the 4th episode: http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html Here we have the “friend” again. When Ange comes to the golden land in ep 8, she says Eva always was her best friend. With the scene transferred to Battler he says that to Beato, and Beato is also the person that was denied in reality. Mammon saying this line “come on, kill me, your first and last friend”, is representing the scene in prime with Beato, when he denied everything and fell to the sea of oblivion. Beato always was his friend after all and threw everything away for him. Then it goes on like this: http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html (especially this scene, just read it as Battler saying all this stuff instead of Ange!) http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html -and that’s the point when he gave up and fell into the depth of oblivion. Notice how Ange falls here: http://www.mangareader.net/959-57884...hapter-12.html 3. Bird cage vs. game-board Also I wanted to show this scene, that is read different now: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/21/15 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/21/16 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/21/19 Beato is the personification of the game-board, she keeps Battler in her world/”locked room” with the goal in mind to let him get out, actually. And I mean really get out –get away from Rokkenjima, but first hes got to get out of his lethargy/of the depth of oblivion. So Lambda says theres no need for a “game-board” =Beato, where the bird can escape from time to time, you only need a bird-cage where one definitely cant get out of. Beato is only faking that she tries to win, so Lambdas threat is really affecting her. By the way, that helping him is the purpose of Beatos games is also seen in ep 6: Spoiler for quote vn:
Also ep 8 Battler when he asks what good would come from Ange reading the book of the Single truth: Spoiler for quote vn:
4. Is the cat alive or dead? Now we can also understand what Virgilia says in ep 5 to the puppet-Beato: Spoiler for quote vn:
So basically she says the blue bird (=happiness) for Battler is Beatrice, and considering what their relationship was before he forgot everything, that makes sense. Virgilia goes on to say: Spoiler for quote vn:
Virgilia wants to employ another method that will bring about the result now, because she understands that with Beatos games, this gets nowhere. And with "desecrating the cat" she means that the games aren’t exactly fun for Battler and his family either. Since the result of Virgilias method then was that Battler stopped thinking again and went back to the depth of oblivion, while Beatos goal was his “resurrection”, she gave up and died because she lost her purpose to exist.. At the end of ep 5 she thanks him for always being together with her (manga text added) – but that refers to the world BEFORE the meta, when they had a good relationship while he was in the closed room. She also apologizes – I guess she says sorry for her games, that “desecrated the cat” even though in the end they were useless. Big clue that I am right! Woah, I just realized that the whole ep 6 fight between Battler and Erika is also kinda happening in reality. Here ep 6: Spoiler for quote vn:
Explained: Battler is the culprit in this game –that means he intends to kill Erika ("fatal blow"). They noticed before that killing the detective is not prohibited (big hint!!), so even if Erika had made the announcement that she wanted to be the detective, Battler could still have killed her. He intends to do that in the game through that in reality. But for that he has to create the illusion that he got out of the room while Erika is still away without her realizing that he can freely walk around on his own– this is all reality, its not meta! Im not yet sure what exactly happens in reality, but he probably wants to do a surprise-attack. So if Erika immediately knows that he escaped on his own, his plan would probably fail. That’s how I see it until now. There may be more clues what exactly happens there, I have to read the scene again... In any case, thats why the decision to abandon the fight is so difficult for him and influences the outcome not only of the game but of reality as well. Think of it like this: Battler realizes that the meta is a distorted version of reality. If Erika realizes that Battler is the culprit, she does so too in reality. Also the time in the meta is running much slower than in reality, so for every minute spent there, he loses much time in real life. 6. Journey of the mind By the way in ep 5 its said Battler was on a “journey of the mind”. In the Ange-Golden-Land-Scene in ep 8, Rudolf and Kyrie also say that “Ange” was on a great and terrible journey all on her own and finally got back home. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-14 at 13:31. |
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2015-04-14, 11:56
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Link #35072 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Last part 12
So in ep 5 Beato reached her goal, in ep 6 Battler still has to fight against Erika, and at the end he had his resurrection, killed Erika in real life and then…stayed there XD at least for a while. That’s what is said in ep 8:
The ending Ange to Battler: Spoiler for quote vn:
That is Battler saying Ange should go back to reality before him, he’ll wait a little bit longer where he is in reality until “Beato” arrives. The scene goes on like this: Spoiler for quote vn:
He doesn’t talk to the empty rose-garden. He talks to the person standing right in front of him in reality. And I guess this person is Ikuko. Spoiler for quote vn:
Ok, now this is hard. Beato says shes early, but she also says shes too late. But since Beato later at the end of ep 8 says that Battler made it out alive from the island and that he should leave delusion-land, I guess that’s what happened: Someone came and helped him get away. And in Battlers eyes, this someone is Beato. But Beato is still only an illusion of his. That’s why Beato says in the end of ep 8 that she is an illusion while he is a human. Featherine said she wanted to go investigate what happened on Rokkenjima to find the last clues, in reality, its of course not Featherine who goes there but the human version Ikuko. Ikuko Ah I wanted to mention this I=1 Ku=9 "Ko" as a normal ending for feminine names, this makes Ikuko=19 and Touya=18. I am still a bit unhappy about what happened exactly at the end, if Sayo was really killed or if only Erika the witch was killed. Because if it was only Erika, then Ikuko could very well be the new personality in Sayo. But since the duel with Erika is hinting so heavily at events in reality, this is still hard to say. It could also be that Ikuko really IS Featherine, and with that I mean that she represents Ryukishi. She would then have written the whole story of Umineko. The rude way she talks about her readers certainly would make this a plausible interpretation Did Rudolf and Kyrie kill at all? A possible motive IF they did I also wanted to mention a possible reason why Rudolf and Kyrie killed everyone. Actually, I wonder if they even did that at all now. Because of this one part Kyrie says: Spoiler for quote vn:
Doesn’t this basically say that the story we see there is not true? Or at least that all the talk between Rudolf and Kyrie is made up. We have the red truth that Rudolf and Kyrie murdered everyone, and I also think since in ep 5 they talk about a mixture of truths and lies that this is true. But Im changing my position like every few hours, so...If Rudolf and Kyrie really killed everyone, there had to be a reason behind this (if this is true). Maybe it was something like what Rudolf hints at here: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/14/24 If we keep in mind that these games are meant to make Battler remember everything and that Rudolf likes to show-off and doesn’t say openly what he feels, this might! hint at a real situation.. Because these “tens of billions” surely sound like the amount of money the hidden gold is worth. And the “he is stupid and reckless, he speaks of big dreams and things impossible to accomplish. However he can kickstart things that not even a billion of mediocre people who cant even be stupid, would ever be able to do.” That also sounds like Battler was searching for the gold. And we had another kidnapping-situation where someone was framed as the culprit by that in Natsuhis case. Also it was said that Krauss was held prisoner in kinzos “golden land” in the beginning and the phone-call was made from that room if I remember correctly. And considering how all the women who might lose their children act in the games…I don’t know if Rudolf and Kyrie wouldn’t go that far. Anges dream Independently from that - ep 8 after the Halloween party with Ange, its says: Surely, she was reliving that fun evening once more in her dreams…So this might actually hint at the fact that the ending where Ange meets Touya and Ikuko is just a dream? Because she relives the Halloween party there. But here Im not sure yet. The meta - a daydream More hints for the meta=daydream btw, which is kinda trivial at this point Ep 8: George to Battler: Spoiler for quote vn:
Spoiler for quote vn:
And the scene still goes on: Spoiler for quote vn:
With this, that the meta is all a daydream, the fact that in the Golden Land, everyone will be revived, actually makes sense. Because its all a delusion. Connecting everything again to the scene where Ange wakes up in the Golden Land in ep 8 + sealing the deal that Battler found the gold! There are some things I couldn’t mention earlier for the scene where Ange wakes up in the Golden Land that further support my claim that this scene refers to Battler waking up in the Golden Land at the end of ep 5: Spoiler for quoote vn:
This too doesn’t sound like Ange but more like Battler. Cause he only saw a black space the whole time and he has to get used to seeing the light again. With the embrace hurting it sounds like hes physically not really ok, which would make sense. Also: Spoiler for quote vn:
Same here, did we ever see Ange really talking to Kyrie and Rudolf and disobeying them? This is not Anges text. That’s more like Battlers. So maybe this too refers to him searching for the gold? Or maybe it was that he didn’t do what Kyrie said-to believe in the witch and other stuff. I still have to go through the story for that. But this: Spoiler for quote vn:
Spoiler for quote vn:
And with this, the deal is sealed that this scene really stands for Battlers arrival in the Golden Land!!!: Spoiler for quote vn:
Because, look at this: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/11/25 Lambdas game definitely hints at what happened in prime, so that means he regrets not having been able to play with his cousins back then. And his cousins made up for that by playing with him in every game. Also when “Ange” wakes up in the Golden Land in ep 8, it starts with this: Spoiler for quote vn:
Since the locked room was always described as a room of eternal silence, voices are now the complete opposite. Also when he was in the creepy closed room in ep 6 he was always longing to reach the voices and thinking about how much fun everyone must have. And in ep 5 we have this scene: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/36 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/37 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/38 This scene is hinting at the relationship between beato and battler shortly before he “died”. The "last head of the Ushiromiya-family" refers to Battler of course, and I guess he wanted to let Beato be free but she wanted to stay be his side. Even reminds one of the scene in ep 5 in the tribunal, when Beato says she at least wants to die together with him.. The sound of rain drops is of course the bad omen, announcing will happen shortly after, since rain in umineko always stands for misfortune and unhappiness.Here in the game it announces how Krauss will be kidnapped, in reality Battlers death. The ending - part 2 (???) But Jessicas presence is also emphasized.. This is what I think: Kinzo in ep 7, in the scene I mentioned above where basically everything refers to Battler, mentions he had some kids. Of course, Sayo cant have kids, the “children” Sayo has are just different personalities. Beato for example is often referred to Sayos daughter. So Jessica standing there in this scene maybe hints at the fact that there is still some other personalitiy in Sayo that didn’t play a role much. And I guess this personality would be Ikuko. Ikuko later also talks about her brothers she has. But that would mean that Sayo wasn’t really shot, and only Erika was killed off in the end…which I would find weird. It could also be that Chick-Beato is meant. But Beatos dream was to have children someday (hinted at in the conversation with George) and to get old with Battler, so maybe Ikuko really is Sayo. OR: Ikuko is the last dream Battler has for Beato, thats why we have this suspicious "Im tired" coming from Touya in the manga. But Im really unsure here. I still have to leave that open for now... Btw, the fact that the motorboat that Beato and Battler take to get off the island is described as “new” appearantly was never seen as a problem. Since this is supposed to be a forgotten military base, theres no way theres a new motorboat there. I really have to think about the ending still. So maybe "Beato" really was "too late" and Battler died in the course of ep 8? But he talks to someone in front of him in the rose garden. So maybe he is still alive but "Beato" still was too late? And the whole stuff that happens after that is his last dream? I dont know yet...so complicated... Also: Battlers "Ill fall, Ill fall" with which every game starts is hinting at his fall to the depth of oblivion. I just wanted to mention it. Everything was a delusion So that means if we don’t accept that magic exists, Ange was a delusion, and the very ending with the orphanage is a delusion too. But that could somehow make it reality again, cause its Battlers delusion that allows him to die And if we accept that magic doesn’t exist, that also means that Battler was pretty much alone all the time T_T (apart from this Erika-Sayo). And we all just see a giant delusion that is influenced by what happens in reality. But I somehow refuse to believe that!! I want to believe that the metaphysical world does not fall under magic, and that what Battler says that the souls on Halloween are close to the human world & what Ange says in ep 8 when she watches Bernkastels game: “It was like a TV. Or was I ghosts…?” is true. That their family really could meet again in the metaphysical world as souls. But this is only my opinion and has barely anything to do with finding the truth in Umineko. Two promises? Last thing I want to mention is this: the promise Beato always refers to maybe isn’t (only?) the promise Battler made when he was 12, but (also?) this one: http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/16/34 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/21/35 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/21/36 No matter what side the coin falls, Beato doesnt gain anything With this solution, Virgilias red truth in ep 5, that beato doesn’t gain anything no matter if the riddle is resolved or not, finally makes sense. I always thought that Beatos goal was to be stopped and that it should now be unimportant to her if everyone is killed or not…that didnt make any sense. Beato wanted to bet everything to be granted a miracle that someone would solve the epithaph riddle. I thought it was a strange red truth to say “Beato doesn’t gain anything no matter if the riddle is resolved or not”. With this, apart from minor details and maybe the ending, Im completely satisfied (at least as satisfied as one can be with this outcome). I want to find the missing hints now, but I guess for me, there wont be much of a discussion anymore now. I doubt anyone can argue well against the main events that happened in prime the way I presented it and give a different solution that explains all the little sentences and puts everything together. I dont want to say that this is perfect, the Beato stuff for example is still lacking or the explanation of the Rosa-Sakutarou-scene in ep 4, but concerning the main events in Prime, I really dont have any doubts anymore. So while these posts certainly were long, I think the next ones will be far shorter. I guess this will somehow make up for this long text. |
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2015-04-14, 12:40
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Link #35073 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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But my main point is: It says even on the page you linked: "So Battler had no choice but to admit it, that the witch truly did exist". You could of course say their connection was "lost" at this point. But the reason meta-battler completely gave up in the first place, was that he heard Beatos explanation and "everything made sense" ("its plausibe, so its the truth?" - same thing happened in prime). In any case, Piece-Battler succumbs to the magic-explanation because he stopped thinking. Battler is always in the same state when he stops thinking... Beatos goal was never to tell Battler about what happened in prime, he was supposed to learn it on his own. Also: I started watching the video you linked. I havent finished it yet, but if Im already replying, I might as well already start: I agree with the main point that Anges story is "fiction". Its a "distorted version of the future" like Beato almost literally says in ep 8. But it doesnt stem from ep 3, but from the "truth" that Battler accepted in prime, according to which the world that follows was formed (Virgilia ep 5). And I can also say that I agree with this: it is definitely wrong that the meta is the story Touya and Ikuko write. This I can say with 100% certainty. Ill watch the rest now... Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-14 at 12:53. |
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2015-04-14, 13:10
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Link #35074 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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...This is really the best you have?
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2015-04-14, 15:22
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Link #35075 | |
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I did read through all of your theory, but could you perhaps provide a summary so I could more efficiently tackle some of the parts that interest me? I think you're close to what I think at moments, but miss the mark at others. The quotes have been inspirational though, not having had a proper re-read in ages. I believe most of what you said can still be explained as happening in Touya's head instead of literally on Rokkenjima Prime. I find a certain charm in translating scenes as literal events on Prime, but the explanations become needlessly convoluted sometimes because of that. Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given? Of course, it is also implied that Prime is not exactly a mystery, so these rules do not necessarily apply to it, and what is apparent of course sometimes depends on the person. |
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2015-04-14, 17:12
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Link #35076 | ||||
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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And the questions that he asked later on at 11:30 PM. http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/35.html Note that he even asked what the true nature of magic is, as well as the motive. Then she began to answer all of Battler's questions and everything made sense and was able to accept everything. Given that Battler learned the true nature of magic, he was able to accept Beato as a witch. Keep in mind that after Rosa collected all five master keys and called the servants furniture, Beatrice says in red: If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved. As an example, saying that "I used my magic wand to turn Kanon's corpse into a demon" is not resolving the riddle of the disappearance of Kanon's corpse. Not only that, but it contradicts the very definition of magic. Thus Battler in EP2 learned EVERYTHING and is the one most likely to become Tohya Hachijo. Quote:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-2/22/19 He at this point stopped thinking, gave up and lost control of his piece and everything ran its course. Also, in Piece-Battler's case, he was technically spoon-fed the answers and didn't come to the answers on his own. Because of this, I could still say with absolute certainty that the game is between Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice, since obviously Meta-Battler had no way at the time could have known what Piece-Beatrice said to Piece-Battler. Why? Because as I pointed out, the connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler was lost at around the time Rosa called the servants furniture and Beatrice saying in the Meta-World that there are five master keys. Also, I might as well add that from this page: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/42.html It is said that "when the king is defeated and one player surrenders, all that is left is to reflect on the moves that were made". Obviously Meta-Battler is the player that surrendered, and he could only reflect on the moves that he made, not the moves that moved independently (Piece-Battler). Quote:
Sorry can't help it. :P Does anybody know where I can find the raws for the part when Ange read the Book of One Truth? I know it is translated but I just want to compare. Last edited by Leslie Chow; 2015-04-14 at 17:33. |
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2015-04-14, 17:22
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Link #35077 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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You don't even know AuraTwilight or the theories Aura proposed over the years and yet you're labelling Aura as a child who can't understand Umineko and that had never managed to solve anything. Instead than defending your theory you're attacking the person who criticized it and you're doing it on the assumption that person is an incomeptent teen you can dismiss according to his age. This isn't only childish, it's mean and borders on a bullying attempt. Please, act as an adult as you seem to claim to be one. |
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2015-04-14, 21:13
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Link #35078 | |
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2015-04-14, 21:15
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Link #35079 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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But I think our basic approaches are diametrically opposed, and it will probably lead nowhere)But now I want to leave this whole discussion behind, because it was indeed kinda childish. "could you perhaps provide a summary so I could more efficiently tackle some of the parts that interest me?" Of everything that I have written? o_O I can try...maybe Ill leave all the hints and just write down my conclusions then, and for that only the main points? I will try it later on. "I believe most of what you said can still be explained as happening in Touya's head instead of literally on Rokkenjima Prime" You know, the fact that this Prime-story is never explicitly told to us, and just referred to in all the scenes, this alone already heavily implies that my Prime-theory is correct. Cause there is, from a normal literal POV, no need to hide something that much and let the readers search for it, if there is no point in it, cause the truth lies out in the open. Its a game, after all! You wont get the answer presented openly, you have to win. But if you read my post that follows this one, you might understand why you are of the opinion that you can explain much with the "it happens in Touyas head"-explanation. "Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given?" It is! I only went through some pages of the manga right now, and it is SO appearant! Absolutely everything! falls into place. Just to give you an impression: Natsuhi runs down the staircase in ep 5, she stumbles, but then she catches herself and says "I cannot fall yet". The "fall" is referred to so often. And I just took one look into the first chapter of ep 3 and immediately wrote my Extra-part-post. Try it please. Please read the story (or only a few chapters in the manga, that doesnt take so long) with my solution. Its is so appearant I cant even describe it! " I find a certain charm in translating scenes as literal events on Prime," You remember Battlers ep 5: I believe the truth can only be found with one eye believing and one denying?" That is Ryukishis hint that tells us: Read the text- in a literal sense and in a metaphorical-both at the same time and youll find the truth Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-15 at 01:45. |
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2015-04-14, 21:57
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Link #35080 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Extra part
Ok, now that we got the pointless arguments out of the way
theres still something else I HAVE to mention because I solved my last big question -and that is the ending! Headaches - "change the world" http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/33 http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/34 Natsuhi wrinkles her forehead when she has a headache. And Battler is always grabbing his head and wrinkling his forhead when he cant think anymore- > he has the headache in those scenes. Also: In ep 7, the game board is a mix of different timelines. Whenever someone tries to think about it, Will says theyll just get a headache. And Natsuhi in place of Battler thinks "if my head could just explode". Then we have the whole "everything occurs simultaneously"-business in ep 6. And in ep 7 we have Yasudas "changing the world". And we have Beato saying in ep 5 that if Battler doesnt believe in the truth, it will disappear. Also the lyrics of Innana no mita yume "sentaku no hamon" - the waves of your decision... it all hints at the same thing. First off: The decision Battler made, referred to in Innana no mita yume, was to give up on his belief for a (fake) truth. And now I really really am unsure if there is no magic at all in Umineko....To me it sounds like he can change the world and put pieces together, and that depends on what he accepts as truth - it influences past and future (Anges future is "distorted"). They all say all the time that Battler himself decides what his world is. So we have the red truth that Rudolf and Kyrie killed everyone, but that only happens because Battler believed so. But he should have known that it really was impossible, because it just COULDNT have happened that way. Battler dies after all (after episode 6) If you do want to say there is no magic, you can also say that its all in his head. But with this I mean the whole future with Touya and Ange and Ikuko wouldnt occur. Because Battler died at the beginning of ep 8: Ep 7 scene with Kinzo: "How do you kill a puppet?" Lion: "By cutting the strings". Kinzo: "Correct, that would be death, but it would also be freedom", the "nozomareta kaihou" (longed for release) in innana no mita yumes lyrics. When Battler kills Erika in the end of ep 6, he "cuts his strings", but since he still cant get out of the locked room by himself, cause he is tied to the room there (thats at least what the chains on his feet and hands that we see quite often suggest), he pretty much starves to death. In Ep 8 "someone" comes - someone Battler thinks of as Beato, but as Beato says: "shes too late". The ending is then either 1) Battlers last dream while he dies or 2) a change of the world, where Battler and Beato get out on the third day in 1986. But with his death, he can finally make it out of the island and is released. Fate And also: http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html Battler is the broken vase- thats how youre depicted when you fall into the sea of oblivion, as scattered into pieces. You can fix it for a while, but its fate is sealed. So in the new world/in Battlers head-however you want to see it, the same thing happens in the end again - he falls into the sea of oblivion again and becomes Touya. Ikuko is the new Beato version in this world, she has all the characteristics that Beato/Sayo had. If you accept this "change the world" thing, then it is reality, if you dont then its Battlers final delusion. That would explain why he says that hes tired later, when hes Touya. And that would also explain why Battler in ep 8 can say to Ange that hes already dead, even though it seems that after he said that, he was still alive. And in this new world, Touya and Ikuko write message bottles, theres a mirror in Ikukos bedroom (like there was a mirror in Erikas) and the two of them can read mystery-novels. Its like their happy ending. And this new world then influences the meta in the past, like Feahterine does, cause, again, here all time and space is connected (quote from ep 5) Like I said: if you accept that its magic, then it is, if not, its Battlers final delusion. Depth of oblivion=Battlers hell vs the meta=Purgatory vs. Touya/Ikuko=Battlers heaven - Oh hello there Dante This Touya/Ikuko-world is Battlers "heaven". While the meta was his hell, a distorted version of what happens in reality (well reality isnt better), the new world is a distorted version of what happened in reality as well, but distorted in a good way. We can see that with the mirror in the bedroom, and with Ikuko having "brothers" (she wasnt allowed to be part of the family in reality), and with their mysteries that noone is allowed to read, with Battler and Beato starting from zero again (like Battler says in ep 4) and most important of all: the whole meta-story becomes only fiction of Touya and Ikuko. I guess thats why we're all always switching between the Touya/Ikuko-explanation and the Prime-explanation. Its kind of reminds one of silent hill. Also notice that the meta occurs while Battler sleeps and Battler repeatedly says he is tired, and in the ending with Ikuko, Touya also says he is tired. Or maybe its better to say Depth of Oblivion=Hell, Meta=Purgatory and Touya/Ikuko=Heaven, and thats where Battler still is, when he is in the meta. This "fall" to heaven is of course inspired by our literature with Lucifer falling down to hell. But the meta is already a place where you can hope to escape hell, so the meta takes place sometomes im hell and sometimes in purgatory: Ep 6 Battler to Erika: "Go to hell". Then Erika told them where they were: "We are already there". Ep 8 EVA: "Ange, see you in hell. No, this is probably where we are already". So this point I want to make absolutly clear: no matter how you slice it, the Touya/Ikuko ending is not the original world, it can never be! 1. there are too many hints that what happens in the meta has parallels in reality and 2. Ikuko cant have found Touya and the message-bottles the way its presented, this is made clear in the currents-hint. 3. Anges story CANT be true. 4. Umineko is a game (not a simple novel) where the player must reach the truth. For this, the truth must be hidden. The Touya/Ikuko-truth isnt hidden, it is not the solution. Ha! And now I finally! understood what Vigilia meant when she said in ep 5 that Beato has to either grab him and fall to hell, or take his hand and lead him to heaven. Battler has no chance to make it out alive permanently. In reality, the only option he has is to release himself from Erika and by that to die and go to heaven. This is "taking his hand" - letting go of him by letting him die. Or he can forever stay in the room until he dies, this existence is worth than death but he would still be alive - this is "grabbing him" and falling to hell. This is a tragedy, just like Dantes Divina Commedia. Berns red truth was right. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-15 at 01:46. |
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