(L+CR) Goblin Slayer

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

money. when farmers can chase off stray goblins, killing goblins won't get you much fame nor reward in return.
Bottom ranks probably kill a few goblins or so, move up ranks and switch to high bounty targets.

Originally Posted by The Green One

Fighting Goblins in this reality does seem like it's high risk (If you lose you either die horribly via torture, or get tortured and raped as a baby factory.) for crap rewards if you win. Can't imagine you get paid much for Goblin requests more higher rankers would do them I'd bet.

PRetty much lampshading the behavior of tabletop and mmo players who moves on "juicier" targets when leveled up high enough, with a darker take on "reality ensues" when those adventurers decides that goblins are someone else's problem. Tucker's Kobolds was, depending on who you ask, either something that really happened or an urban legend and run on the premise of what happen when low-level trash mobs suddenly start acting like guerilla fighters, like Viet-congs and talibans, said Tucker supposedly had experience fighting guerillas. The result is ugly even against a group of level 10-12 adventurers. GS Gobs are close to those Tucker's Kobolds, high on crystal meth.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

I mean the entire world should be more organized to slay goblins

Maybe goblins aren't the top priority.
There were actual mentions of other monsters at the start of the first episode (a "manticore" & "demon lord" with comments as "quests about slaying it pay well"), and goblins are still somehow among the weakest of all monsters, so much to be widespread known by even new adventurers to be weak. (this also points to, "being dangerous" =/= "being acknowledged as dangerous", goblins were understimated by the new party)

If goblins are this dangerous, other things should be worse. So priorities.

Originally Posted by The Green One

I imagine a lot of the stuff being talked about here will be answered later.

That's sort of a natural thing to happen when the discussion is oriented to explain how the world works, if the story remains consistent eventually those observations will become evident. If it's instead just about asking questions and stop there, yes, answers may come later.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

It's indeed weird but even in real life you have animals from different species raping each other. For reproduction? it's not exactly rape, but i can give you the example of those animals that plant eggs inside an insect to incubate the larvae and then the larvae eat said insect from the inside to develop and get free. That is also fucked up and should not be natural. But here we are. If such insane stuff happens in our world then having goblins in a fictional fantasy story using other species to reproduce suddenly is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of life.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Natural? If the whole idea of having your brain eaten after intercourse (or even in the middle of it) didn't already made you realize that the "natural" world is way more fucked up than most humans can even conceive you can read this interesting article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-re...ior_in_animals

Particularly the paragraph of "inter-species sex" and "sex involving juveniles". Yes, stoats often impregnate infants (while they are still blind and undeveloped) as part of their "natural" reproductive cycle. They just find a nest, impregnate all the females they can find and then get out before the mother gets back.

I know nature can be weird. I even read about a toad that will have sex with anything that stays still long enough, including the corpse of a male of another species. As they say, truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense.

But:
1. it's about perception and the delicate sensibilities of those who think Goblin rape is a step too far.
2. even by those standards, the Goblin reproductive cycle is weird.

Originally Posted by Wheeljack83

Why does it have to be natural? It's a work of fantasy. It's fiction.

Is it natural for facehuggers to impregnate humans with xenomorphs who pop out of them?

That's the point. If they're that way, it's because the author decided it. It wasn't derived from some deeper setting. If, say, a human barbarian horde sacks a city, it would make sense there'd be a lot of rape (among other things). You certainly wouldn't expect them to follow the Geneva Convention. Or if an animal, even a magical one, is aggressively territorial and attacks human on sight, well, that's also unremarkable enough. But Goblins (or Xenomorphs) rape because they were written to have that weird biology. That's why you can call it "contrived", and that's why it gets treated a bit differently from simple violence.

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by zeando

Maybe goblins aren't the top priority.
There were actual mentions of other monsters at the start of the first episode (a "manticore" & "demon lord" with comments as "quests about slaying it pay well"), and goblins are still somehow among the weakest of all monsters, so much to be widespread known by even new adventurers to be weak. (this also points to, "being dangerous" =/= "being acknowledged as dangerous", goblins were understimated by the new party)

So I suppose this is a delicate phase between :

Goblins are weak monsters with low rewards so ignored | X Now Here X | Goblins finally recognized as threat

Unless the higherups are complete retards, this phase shouldn't last for even a year

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^They are in this series at least
And the least the government/guild can do is ban female adventurers to hunt goblins
I mean, if they were captured, goblins will get breeding machines that will exponentially grow their numbers

Goblins don't care if their female victims are adventurers or villagers. In other hand half of adventurers are women and many parties are balanced. How many parties would be willing take goblin subjugation (and succeed), if they had to leave their healers and scouts behind?

Such ban is fastest way to get goblin apocalypse.

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Vancian magic means you cant just Nanoha the problem away, and I dont think that GS author have allowed the D&D Wish spell on his table. Which he was free to do, even myself as a DM I have not allowed resurrection spells, for that you gotta do a long and grieving quest like Orpheus.

Well considering Wish is a Level 9 Spell...its rarely a problem lol...since most DnD Campaigns don't last that long.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I sometimes visit /tg/, and some still argue that Goblin Slayer is a bad character because he screams DM player character. You know, the one that they encounter with shitty DMs on a typical "casual" tabletop session. And DMPCs rarely improve the session itself, especially if the DM in question is, through some contrived set of circumstances, the only one that can save a party of player-characters from a wipe.

I don't think this scream "DM PC" in this given setup, simply because the wipe was sorely caused by the original party here. The "dungeon" as it was presented here isn't particularly vicious or impossible, except the presence of the shaman and hobgoblin, but retreat would be an option, assuming the party avoid being ambushed, which was possible. Of course, that setup was intentionally not forgiving for a newbie party, but it was still feasible.

Any more sensible adventurers wouldn't make so many mistakes that would screw your chance of successful saving throw. For instance, one shouldn't assume they can't be attacked from the rear, not just because there could be a hidden entrance, but there wasn't any guarantee there wasn't a goblin scout group that left, even during the day, and could potentially come back at that moment. If the Swordsman was leading the charge, but the Fighter was the rear guard, their chances of survival would have dramatically increased.
With less confusion and with the help of the wizard, it is possible to stall (or even defeat?) the hobgoblin with fire bolt. At this point, they would realize proceeding is too dangerous and escape becomes a viable option.

I'd have agreed if GS was suddenly capable of using lvl3-4 spells and/or have a complete equipment of extremely convenient magic property and so on. But so far, he is just your seasoned warrior that joined the quest late. His course of action isn't particularly outlandish either.

[Marcus H.]

I don't think this scream "DM PC" in this given setup, simply because the wipe was sorely caused by the original party here.

But who handles the dungeon in a tabletop session? Yep, that's right, the DM. As far as this session goes, he calls the shots... and that could include him deliberately avoiding saving throws or just keeping them in the dark about anything.

Also, one particular post on the D&D Reddit...

How about the DM that made a female character get raped because it's a midieval[sic] world?

[Tenzen12]

Well if party is so stupid it's actually fair game let them die once, hopefully they will be wiser with their new characters.

[Skaddix]

So are you saying the DM could have just not let them see the tunnel even if they had properly searched?

I mean I assume Swordsman hitting the roof of the cave is how a DM would describe said Swordsman rolling a Nat 1.

Anyway though if your DM is a douche and being unfair you don't have to play with them.

[Marcus H.]

Anyway though if your DM is a douche and being unfair you don't have to play with them.

I wish the newbies could say that to their author then.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

But who handles the dungeon in a tabletop session? Yep, that's right, the DM. As far as this session goes, he calls the shots... and that could include him deliberately avoiding saving throws or just keeping them in the dark about anything.

The DM calls the shot based on the players actions. As far as it goes, the party deliberately checked the totem without bothering checking the rest of the cave. Unless the DM is an absolute asshole, players would have at least the choice of checking the surrounding. Even if they were denied this right, they would have the right to pick their formation.

The 2 biggest mistakes they have done were 1) not having the fighter being the rear guard 2) not keeping the group in a tight formation. Those 2 points can't be the DM decision at all. That's pretty much textbook newbie mistakes because "well, who cares, we gonna wipe the floor".

[Tenzen12]

^Do you even have idea how hard is not to kill players sometimes?

Anyway this party did everything in their might to get themselves killed and there were at least two warning signs that could be as well GM attempt warn them.

[Ghostfriendly]

There seems to be some talk about double standards over female and male victims, and rape as opposed to murder. Male rape victims and bereaved families absolutely need more support in real life and recognition of their trauma in media; female rape victims need the same thing. As for all the outrage over rape, (though we're not only talking about an explicit rape, but a woman who never recovers from her ordeal) remember that killing humans can be justified in many circumstances, rape is justified in none. Murder is worse than rape because it ends a life, but that doesn't happen on TV; the assault on dignity and humanity in rape is very easily retained in a depiction. When far more men are watching porn than snuff videos, Goblin slayer's artistic choices are not a trivial matter.

I do have a double standard in feeling far more sympathy for fighter than the wizard and warrior. She was kinder than the former, less visibly reckless than the latter, and lived on to suffer her indignity. The show set us up to feel the most personal sympathy for the most victimised character; and it victimised her so much more than a random Titan victim. No one should be surprised that we've been going on about her this long.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I see some people still have not played one of the best dungeon crawlers of those last years. Darkest Dungeon, where the in-game narrator literally sells the game.

I'd been taught than narration is a bad, lazy device in films and video games. This game looks alright though, and seems to be more distanced from its characters than GS; showing again that such callousness towards the traumatised is only possible with distance. And is the product of a thoroughly dark and serious world, rather than one with large breasted female knights running about.

[El Rue]

One amusing call outs I've heard is them complaining how one of the newbie party's mistakes is not bringing any healing potions or such.

A very 'game-y' reaction, too bad this ain't no such game & not everyone is given the free complimentary beginner survival item set & starting cash huh.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

So I suppose this is a delicate phase between :

Goblins are weak monsters with low rewards so ignored | X Now Here X | Goblins finally recognized as threat

Unless the higherups are complete retards, this phase shouldn't last for even a year

I think I get your misunderstanding now.

Priestess's narration did the say that "newbie parties getting wiped out by goblins on their first quest was common".

However, the following statement is also true: "Newbie parties getting wiped out when doing any quest is common".

Even to something like giant rats in the sewer.

Spoiler:

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by El Rue

One amusing call outs I've heard is them complaining how one of the newbie party's mistakes is not bringing any healing potions or such.

A very 'game-y' reaction, too bad this ain't no such game & not everyone is given the free complimentary beginner survival item set & starting cash huh.

I'm not sure how that is a gamey reaction. Bringing medicinal supplies to any outdoor trip especially if your hunter is the basics of basics. If anything the fact this isn't game is all more reason that should have not happened. Potions themselves had little chance of helping them sure, but it speaks volumes how little thought they give these jobs at all. In all honestly the adventurers came off as knowing nothing at all let alone woefully unprepared. I can't even chalk it up to bad luck.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I mean I assume Swordsman hitting the roof of the cave is how a DM would describe said Swordsman rolling a Nat 1.

If it was just to justify a miss and nothing else, yes, but the way it was presented, Fighter also opened himself, and in RPG terms he received a malus on the goblins' subsequent attacks.

There's a reason why "critical miss" on natural 1 isn't a thing in official D&D manuals, it's a very bad idea.

Not complaining about the show though, since I still think it should be a story before a RPG adaption.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Applehell

I'm not sure how that is a gamey reaction. Bringing medicinal supplies to any outdoor trip especially if your hunter is the basics of basics. If anything the fact this isn't game is all more reason that should have not happened. Potions themselves had little chance of helping them sure, but it speaks volumes how little thought they give these jobs at all. In all honestly the adventurers came off as knowing nothing at all let alone woefully unprepared. I can't even chalk it up to bad luck.

But calling it one of their biggest mistakes is a "gamey reaction". Because it wouldn't have changed anything if they'd brought a pack mule loaded with potions. (Unless the mule can fight off those ambushing goblins, of course.) Potions can only do so much, and you need to be able to drink them. The swordsman was dead the moment he let the gobs swarm him, the fighter wouldn't have fared any better... The only difference is for the magician, but even then, they'd have needed to know about the poison, bring the antidote (unless there's some kind of generic anti-poison that works on everything...), feed it to her early enough, and even then they'd still need Goblin Slayer to save her and Priestess. That's a lot of "ifs", that boil down to their actual biggest mistake: they should have waited for Goblin Slayer.

[Tenzen12]

If they had potions, Mage could be saved, but yes that itself is just part of their mistake: they went unprepared.