2009-11-02, 14:07 | Link #3961 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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I think that theory rests on "Kanon" being killed. Meaning the servant the was "Kanon" dropped that name at took back on his real name, like he was trying to tell Jessica when he "died". Thus "Kanon" was killed...from a certain point of view.
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2009-11-03, 02:46 | Link #3962 |
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 37
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There is a difference between "killed" and "died." So long as Kanon suffered the wound that eventually caused his death in Jessica's room, then saying that he was killed in that room is technically true. The theory is based on him surviving his wounds long enough to leave the room and meet the other servants + Nanjo. Therefore, the red text is not violated. It is a loophole similar to the one used to explain Nanjo's death in Ep. 3.
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2009-11-03, 03:03 | Link #3963 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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With Nanjo's death the loophole is: the death of some people were not stated in red until after Nanjo died. So one of those people killed Nanjo, died and then the red text was given. But with the situation you described it doesn't work in the same manner because it was stated Kanon was killed in the room before Kumsawa and Nanjo had their necks slashed. |
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2009-11-03, 03:07 | Link #3964 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Just because you were "killed" does not mean you "died immediately". (That has to be specified.) So yes, Kanon did not die when he was killed. I'm sure this works a lot better in Japanese... |
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2009-11-03, 08:07 | Link #3965 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This again raises question on the definition of a word
Let's say someone purposely injects the aids virus on his victim. That victim might die several years after such an event. When it would be correct to say that person was killed? At the time the virus was injected or when she actually died? People die if they are killed but how much time later?
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2009-11-03, 08:45 | Link #3966 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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When has the word "kill" become so confusing?
If there is no death involved, kill cannot be used. A serious wound does not qualify a killing. The truthness of the red texts depends on the status of Kanon at the time the texts were declared. If he had died at that time, "kill" can be used. If not, no. Only something like gravely wounded was appropriate in Kanon's case. We do not say someone being sent to intensive-care unit as being killed even though the person may have been stabbed many times in the chest, until the person was declared dead. In short, being killed implies being dead. Not the vice versa though. (I hope we will not be talking about definition of death afterwards) (The inheritance theory of Kanon's title works in explaining the latter cases, but never convincing IMHO) |
2009-11-03, 11:37 | Link #3967 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
To be killed is to die. Kanon was killed in Jessica's room. I would understand the loophole if it was said after Nanjo and Kumasawa got their throats slashed, but in this scenario it makes no sense because of the timing in Beato's words. |
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2009-11-03, 11:45 | Link #3968 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Singapore
Age: 32
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Err, it works this way because of the language. And anyway, being killed in the room could mean that the action that lead to his death was committed in the room. There's a reason why it's worded like this instead of just plainly saying 'He died in the room.' Wordplay is very important in discerning the red truths. The inheritance theory, to me sounds rather phony. While it makes sense for Kinzo(new family head) or Beatrice(the one who found the gold); Kanon is not really a title as the servant names aren't really re-used(Renon etc). You could argue that Kanon is a title of one of the one-winged eagle servants but IMO it's really weak. Not to mention you'd have to have someone to inherit the name, quite hard for game 2, when the deaths of most people can be confirmed. Another theory could be Kanon was not the Kanon of other episodes? Not that hard to impersonate, that guy, just have to keep quiet and be emo throughout the day.
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2009-11-03, 11:49 | Link #3969 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Quote:
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2009-11-03, 12:37 | Link #3972 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Again, this only really works in Japanese. How else do you get redundant statements like "people die when they are killed"?
Kanon at least had to survive long enough to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa... Gohda, unlike the other servants, probably isn't in on their conspiracy... so I think he can be somewhat trusted, though he didn't see what he thought he saw... maybe the LSD theory is correct? The problem with red text like this is that it really doesn't mean a damn thing. To destroy its very premise, all I have to do is ask "which Kanon"? |
2009-11-03, 13:01 | Link #3975 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Well, the only answer I can think of is that the OWE servants and Nanjo are in on the killings... and Kanon went there to kill Nanjo and/or Genji, who 'killed' him for whatever reason. Kumasawa just got in the way. |
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2009-11-03, 13:03 | Link #3976 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
If Kanon did survive why would he kill two people and not just tell someone he trusts (like Shannon for instance) about Jessica's murder and who did it. |
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2009-11-03, 13:06 | Link #3977 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Not in Umineko. Not from what I've seen on this board. Not from what Battler says. All that needs be proven is that an event is possible. Motive can be thought of later.
Though if you really want to solve the mystery, then, well... Quote:
Shannon is probably in on it all too... |
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2009-11-03, 13:46 | Link #3979 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
What I mean is: why would Kanon kill two more people if he could just tell them what happened and catch the culprit. What would murdering two more people do for him? Again that scene is magical - we don't know for sure if it WAS Kanon killing Nanjo and Kumasawa at all, because he vanished at the end of it all. |
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2009-11-03, 15:11 | Link #3980 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Anyway, like I just said: The One-Winged Eagle servants and Nanjo are the murderers in most of the games, and Nanjo decided to make Kanon one of the sacrifices, for a reason we don't know yet because we know nothing about Nanjo. Kanon came to confront him on his betrayal and killed him, but Kumasawa got in the way. Quote:
Again, like I said, Gohda's story might as well prove that Kanon was there. And magic scenes are supposed to be metaphors for what happened, remember? |
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