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Old 2010-12-21, 16:23   Link #3341
LostHanyou
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post

Here is a question
, I have been meaning to ask. What did Avalon do to Gil's Enuma Elish (Ea's attack). Did it send it back to him, deflect, or something else? I was meaning to go to that scene myself, but holidays are more demanding than I had thought they'd be. [/topicchange]
It just protects Saber, doesn't deflect attacks at all except in the anime.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:39   Link #3342
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, don't make such assumptions in the future.

Like I said, an argument always requires there to be two sides.



No, but no-one here is condoning "mass murder"....

If you say so, I'm definitely leaving the argument to the ones that have something to say besides their opinions and "X is why X is Y".



Well, that's the point.

Shirou may have saved more people in MoS than in HF (but, even that's not certain, because in the process of discarding Sakura he made it substantially more difficult for himself to win, because he also alienated all of his potential allies), but in general taking that attitude won't. HF Shirou's attitude (by which I mean "the attitude he took after the MoS decision") is a far more sensible one, in most cases. It just so happens that things were a lot worse than he had any reason to suspect (because there's no way he could have known that the shadow was caused by Sakura at that point), and thus killing her may well have saved more people (in the short-term, at least).



But his thought processes are exactly the same in both routes prior to that decision. It makes no sense for that to be the case if he is less Sakura-centric in one route than the other.



Perhaps, but he should have.



Maybe, but given that he didn't have all the information, choosing to kill her would be a rash decision. She was not a direct danger, and he openly accepted that if she were to go insane, he would have to kill her before she could hurt anyone else.



Well, no, he didn't. He made the decision to kill her but, when he tried, simply couldn't go through with it. That's an understandable reaction to killing an entirely innocent girl who you dearly love....



That's called human nature. He didn't want to admit that she was "responsible" for the shadow, just like he didn't want to admit to himself that he had feelings for her, and just like he and Rin didn't want to see how awful her life really was.



Possibly, but that's no more true in HF than in other routes. It's not that Shirou is willing to let Sakura kill innocents, it's that Shirou is simply not ever going give up thinking that she can be saved.



Yeah, but if she were actually harming people at that point, he would stop her, even if it meant killing her. He would not allow her to destroy the world.

There is a difference between "knowing" Sakura can't be saved (like Rin does in the church...) and actually knowing that she can't be saved. There is no way that a human being can ever truly make that decision, but nevertheless it's clear from his actions in HF that, were Shirou forced to make the choice between killing Sakura and allowing her to destroy the world, he would have killed her.
Except this was proven completely and utterly false when Shirou found out that Sakura's existence was in fact threatening the world and that he had no way to stop it. So I call that complete and utter bullshit.

After he let Sakura live the second time you cannot convincingly say that Shirou would have killed Sakura to prevent Avenger from being released. He knew her existence threatened the world he couldn't think of a single way to stop it back then and he still did not kill her. What do you thinks gonna happen when presented with the choice again? He already has hundreds of lives on his conscience what's why would he care about more. Especially given his never give up attitude and his vow to save her. Just because Avenger is released does not mean neccessarily mean that Sakura was going to die .

Shirou will never ever kill Sakura he sacrificed his mother fucking ideal for her and his life. He's not gonna say "Sakura is worth 10000 lives but 6 billion is too much" That's going back to the ideal he tossed out in the garbage. He completely threw away quantifing lives so to him the amount does not matter. He was going to continue chasing the impossible.

From the very begining he knew he was risking lives by chasing the impossible and other the course of HF the magnitude of the amount kept on increasing but he never stopped. If someone was willing to sacrifice hundreds for an impossible dream do you not think that they would be willing to sacrifice more?
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Old 2010-12-21, 18:26   Link #3343
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Except this was proven completely and utterly false when Shirou found out that Sakura's existence was in fact threatening the world and that he had no way to stop it. So I call that complete and utter bullshit.
Well, no, because at that point, she wasn't threatening the world, at least not immediately, and she was not harming anyone either.

I can accept, perhaps, that there is some level of moral ambiguity there, but to claim that he just doesn't care about the people who died, and to compare him to a mass-murderer or rapist is just plain ridiculous. His only "crime" is to not murder an entirely innocent girl who was lying in her bed totally helpless, and to believe that it was perhaps possible to save her and everyone else. He never allowed her to kill anyone, and indeed he did everything short of killing her to prevent it. And, had he actually seen her doing it, he'd have killed her, without a doubt.

Similarly, his goal in the final battle of HF is to make sure that she doesn't release Angra Mainyu and to save her. He was certainly not intending to allow Angra Mainyu to be released, and he killed himself for that purpose even though Sakura would have been safe. If his goal had solely been to save her, he'd not have given Rin the Jewelled Sword to kill her with, and he wouldn't have "given up" on her in the final Bad End (we don't know what he'd have done from there, because he had no way to fight her).

Quote:
After he let Sakura live the second time you cannot convincingly say that Shirou would have killed Sakura to prevent Avenger from being released. He knew her existence threatened the world he couldn't think of a single way to stop it back then and he still did not kill her. What do you thinks gonna happen when presented with the choice again? He already has hundreds of lives on his conscience what's why would he care about more. Especially given his never give up attitude and his vow to save her. Just because Avenger is released does not mean neccessarily mean that Sakura was going to die .
Well, I accept that he may not have given up, but he certainly wouldn't let her release Angra Mainyu knowing that it would kill many innocent people.

At the point he made the decision not to kill her the second time, she was not actually doing anything. If he'd come across her whilst she was "feeding", the outcome would almost certainly have been different, because he's not going to stand there and watch her eating people.

Also, he doesn't have the deaths of 100 people on his conscience, because he made every effort to prevent those deaths. Just like he would make every effort to prevent any further deaths.

Quote:
Shirou will never ever kill Sakura he sacrificed his mother fucking ideal for her and his life. He's not gonna say "Sakura is worth 10000 lives but 6 billion is too much" That's going back to the ideal he tossed out in the garbage. He completely threw away quantifing lives so to him the amount does not matter. He was going to continue chasing the impossible.
He's never said that Sakura was worth any number of lives. He wants to save her, yes, but he doesn't want to do it at the expense of innocent people. He's simply not willing to kill her because she might hurt people. If she's in the act of doing so, that's another matter entirely....

Quote:
From the very begining he knew he was risking lives by chasing the impossible and other the course of HF the magnitude of the amount kept on increasing but he never stopped. If someone was willing to sacrifice hundreds for an impossible dream do you not think that they would be willing to sacrifice more?
He was never willing to sacrifice anyone, and he made every effort to avoid doing so.
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Old 2010-12-21, 18:33   Link #3344
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
It just protects Saber, doesn't deflect attacks at all except in the anime.
That's what I thought... stupid anime. Totally ruined that scene. They couldn't even use the music from the game. The end of Fate is one of my favorites. The split between the two fights is perfect. Nasu doesn't give you too much Saber and not enough Shirou, or vice versa.

The anime had so much potential. It is so popular and highly rated... could you imagine if they had done it right?
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:32   Link #3345
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
That's what I thought... stupid anime. Totally ruined that scene. They couldn't even use the music from the game. The end of Fate is one of my favorites. The split between the two fights is perfect. Nasu doesn't give you too much Saber and not enough Shirou, or vice versa.

The anime had so much potential. It is so popular and highly rated... could you imagine if they had done it right?
Wait, I'm like... 90% sure Avalon deflected an attack back at Gil in the game once too. After Shirou and Saber's date, the first time Shirou projects the sheathe. There's a flash of light, Shirou 'projects' blindly and notices 'something like a sword' in his hands. Saber jumps forward, Gil attacks, and when the smoke clears Shirou and Saber are both fine and Gil is on fire.
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:51   Link #3346
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Wait, I'm like... 90% sure Avalon deflected an attack back at Gil in the game once too. After Shirou and Saber's date, the first time Shirou projects the sheathe. There's a flash of light, Shirou 'projects' blindly and notices 'something like a sword' in his hands. Saber jumps forward, Gil attacks, and when the smoke clears Shirou and Saber are both fine and Gil is on fire.
I remember when Saber used it in the final fight, she used Avalon to block the attack in front of her as she rushed to use Excalibur to defeat him. He was using Ea while she charged. That's how I remember it.

Perhaps Shirou's projection in the beginning was a little different or Avalon can do both. Cause the description of Avalon itself mentions nothing about reflection nor does it give the impression that it would reflect it.
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Old 2010-12-21, 20:11   Link #3347
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It's a pretty vague scene, in the game; Shirou is very out of it from having been mostly chopped in half, and there's a lot of screen-filling blinding things going on. But something stops one of Gil's attacks and tears his armor up, Shirou notes that Saber 'used something he made to defeat the enemy' like she had against Berserker, and it's pretty clear that Avalon is the thing he projected there. So... well...

*shrug*

Nasu has plotholes?
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Old 2010-12-21, 20:33   Link #3348
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Wait, I'm like... 90% sure Avalon deflected an attack back at Gil in the game once too. After Shirou and Saber's date, the first time Shirou projects the sheathe. There's a flash of light, Shirou 'projects' blindly and notices 'something like a sword' in his hands. Saber jumps forward, Gil attacks, and when the smoke clears Shirou and Saber are both fine and Gil is on fire.
I think it did, yes, but Shirou wasn't using it properly at that point, he was just using it like a sword. Presumably, when used in that form, it's capable of reflecting attacks to some extent.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:39   Link #3349
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None of the descriptions of Avalon imply it can be used as a weapon, or even deflect anything. It just isolates Saber completely from the world so nothing can harm her, and it's also impossible for her to attack while it's active.

I'll check the scene in Fate again, however how I remember it was Gilgamesh let them go.

Edit: Hmm.. I don't really know. It doesn't say it deflected anything, but something did end up hurting Gilgamesh. I don't think they actually activated Avalon as Saber did against Gilgamesh in the final battle, rather just used it as a shield. So what Cherry Lover said is probably right.

Last edited by LostHanyou; 2010-12-21 at 21:51.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:43   Link #3350
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Yes, he did, but he was clearly damaged, albeit not heavily.

It's not clear, however, whether that was the result of Avalon somehow "reflecting" his attacks, or whether Shirou actually hit him with it.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:44   Link #3351
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Nasu has plotholes.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 2010-12-22, 03:04   Link #3352
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I'll just take the anime's explanation of it. Clearly something had to hurt him.
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Old 2010-12-22, 04:47   Link #3353
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Maybe he had an awesomeness overload.
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Old 2010-12-22, 06:43   Link #3354
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, no, because at that point, she wasn't threatening the world, at least not immediately, and she was not harming anyone either.

I can accept, perhaps, that there is some level of moral ambiguity there, but to claim that he just doesn't care about the people who died, and to compare him to a mass-murderer or rapist is just plain ridiculous. His only "crime" is to not murder an entirely innocent girl who was lying in her bed totally helpless, and to believe that it was perhaps possible to save her and everyone else. He never allowed her to kill anyone, and indeed he did everything short of killing her to prevent it. And, had he actually seen her doing it, he'd have killed her, without a doubt.

Similarly, his goal in the final battle of HF is to make sure that she doesn't release Angra Mainyu and to save her. He was certainly not intending to allow Angra Mainyu to be released, and he killed himself for that purpose even though Sakura would have been safe. If his goal had solely been to save her, he'd not have given Rin the Jewelled Sword to kill her with, and he wouldn't have "given up" on her in the final Bad End (we don't know what he'd have done from there, because he had no way to fight her).



Well, I accept that he may not have given up, but he certainly wouldn't let her release Angra Mainyu knowing that it would kill many innocent people.

At the point he made the decision not to kill her the second time, she was not actually doing anything. If he'd come across her whilst she was "feeding", the outcome would almost certainly have been different, because he's not going to stand there and watch her eating people.

Also, he doesn't have the deaths of 100 people on his conscience, because he made every effort to prevent those deaths. Just like he would make every effort to prevent any further deaths.



He's never said that Sakura was worth any number of lives. He wants to save her, yes, but he doesn't want to do it at the expense of innocent people. He's simply not willing to kill her because she might hurt people. If she's in the act of doing so, that's another matter entirely....



He was never willing to sacrifice anyone, and he made every effort to avoid doing so.
The reason why he's as bad a those people is because what would think would of happened had he failed to prevent Avenger from being born? That's right millions of deaths and killing Sakura was the most secure way of preventing those deaths but he selfishly said no and gambled millions of lives, lives that he no right to gamble on, on the chance that he may save sakura. That alone is just as bad as any of those things.

Anyway lol at the fact your saying he's not guilty at the very least he's guilty for mentally blocking the fact that Sakura and the creature were one and the same. Then you have the fact he didn't secure her enough nor put enough surveilance on her. I mean he left freaking Rider in charge of her own servant who has little morality who let her walk right out without telling anyone. Then you have the fact he prevented her from being uncomfortable in anyway e.g temporary paralysis. Seriously hundreds of peoples lives are at stake and your worried at sakura being uncomfortable? It's not torture and I'm pretty sure she'd consent to it so what exactly is wrong with it.

Shirou also kept her alive when he knew full well that she dangerous. If your going to do that you sure as hell be willing to take responsibility for those that she killed.
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Old 2010-12-22, 08:13   Link #3355
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But anyway, this discussion has gone on long enough, and I don't think we should continue to go along with Flinch's and Tenchi's Sakura hating pace. Because all this will do is turn this thread into another knockdown drag out fight, but if you feel the need to keep going, fine with me.
Well see now you've put me in a precarious position. continung will make me look like an assole. Not continuing will make me look like an asshole.

For the sake of everyone's sanity, fine, i'll stop. I agree with you mostly anyway, except for you're assesment on other characters and whether Shirou actually thought it through properly, when he refused to see the connection between Sakura and the murders and the second time he considered killing her.

And no, I don't think judging someone's actions is the same as judging them.
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Old 2010-12-22, 08:57   Link #3356
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Who's Sakura hating though? Following through the method your ideology prioritizes isn't 'hate'. It's a matter of how a person does thing, and personally nothing wrong with that.

HF is different from the other routes because it touches a sensitive subject for people, in which case the ideology of few for the many vs many for the few. Whether or not the antagonists' words were truthful or not is irrelevant, because Sakura had already started murdering. That is a fact, and no implications for anyone can change that.

I personally come irate at the idea of considering HF a 'healthy' route, but I guess I'll end here too.

Of course I want the last words so it makes Haak look less of an ass, since I also largely instigated this discussion.
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Old 2010-12-22, 08:59   Link #3357
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
The reason why he's as bad a those people is because what would think would of happened had he failed to prevent Avenger from being born? That's right millions of deaths and killing Sakura was the most secure way of preventing those deaths but he selfishly said no and gambled millions of lives, lives that he no right to gamble on, on the chance that he may save sakura. That alone is just as bad as any of those things.
Oh, come on, this is complete and total bullshit.

Refusing to kill an innocent girl (no matter what the circumstances) is not in any way the same as commiting rape or murder, and anyone who claims it is is an idiot, pure and simple. Shirou did not harm anyone, and he had no intention of allowing anyone to be harmed. To compare that to rape or mass-murder is seriously trivialising rape and mass-murder.

Quote:
Anyway lol at the fact your saying he's not guilty at the very least he's guilty for mentally blocking the fact that Sakura and the creature were one and the same.
He had no reason to realise that for some while, and his refusal to accept it until the evidence was 100% clear is just human nature.

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Then you have the fact he didn't secure her enough nor put enough surveilance on her.
Again, how could he have "secured" her better? Plus, he trusted her and loved her, and he had no reason to believe that she would start walking around the city at night.

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I mean he left freaking Rider in charge of her own servant who has little morality who let her walk right out without telling anyone.
Well, who else was he supposed to leave with her whilst he and Rin were busy trying to solve the problem? Plus, what option does he have? If he'd told Rider to keep away from Sakura, she would have told him in no uncertain terms to fuck off, because she doesn't trust him or (especially) Rin to not kill her.

Plus, you're forgetting that Rider was there to prevent Zouken (or anyone else) from trying to take her, not to prevent her "escaping", because there was no sign of that being likely.

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Then you have the fact he prevented her from being uncomfortable in anyway e.g temporary paralysis.
Like I said, that was simply not an option, for several different reasons. Rider's eyes don't work that way, and even if they did she would outright refuse.

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Seriously hundreds of peoples lives are at stake and your worried at sakura being uncomfortable? It's not torture and I'm pretty sure she'd consent to it so what exactly is wrong with it.
Look, she's had a totally shit life, she's going steadily insane and you're suggesting that the best option was to tie her up and leave her in her room so she couldn't go out and "eat" people (which, BTW, wouldn't have worked anyway)? Do you not see how treating her like a problem to be stopped rather than a girl who needs help would have made things worse, in terms of her self-confidence and how "loved" and "wanted" she felt?

There is nothing Shirou could have done to stop the actions of the shadow, because between her magic and Rider's abilities Sakura could escape her bonds anyway, and to tie her up like that would just make her mental state worse, because it comes across as "I don't care about you". Plus, it was quite possible that those would be the last few days of her life, the least he can do for her is to make her comfortable and happy during them.

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Shirou also kept her alive when he knew full well that she dangerous. If your going to do that you sure as hell be willing to take responsibility for those that she killed.
No, Shirou refused to kill her when he knew she might be dangerous.

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HF is different from the other routes because it touches a sensitive subject for people, in which case the ideology of few for the many vs many for the few.
Well, no, it doesn't. It is a debate over ideology, but it's not a matter of simply choosing to save those you love over faceless innocents. The point is more whether it's OK to kill an innocent person because of what they might do, or whether attempting to save everyone is the better option, even if it goes wrong in the end.

As much as you might want to define the debate in terms that make it seem like you're obviously right (by claiming that it's a choice between sacrificing the few for the many and sacrificing the many for the few, which is clearly a decision which any "good" person would decide in favour of the many), it's not that simple and I'm not going to let you try to pigeonhole all us Sakura supporters into the category of "selfish bastards who think that people should look after themselves and their loved ones and say 'fuck you' to everyone else", because we're not.

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Whether or not the antagonists' words were truthful or not is irrelevant, because Sakura had already started murdering. That is a fact, and no implications for anyone can change that.
No, because you can't judge people based on hindsight. Shirou did not know she had already started eating people (and, don't say that Sakura had started "murdering", because murder implies intent, and she had none), and he had no reason to assume that she had.

I will accept that, based on what we know now, killing Sakura in the church was probably the "more moral" choice (although I do not agree that refusing to do so is outright evil, because to me refusing to kill someone is never an evil act, no matter how inevitable it is that they will end up killing others), but we have the benefit of hindsight and of complete information (without the ability to change things). Based on what Shirou knew, there was a possibility of helping Sakura (which is undoubtedly a good thing, if it and be done) and, if she did go insane, she could be stopped before she killed anyone. Therefore, based on the information that he had, the correct choice was to give Sakura a chance (which is something she's never had before...) and try to find a way to help her without letting others die. True, in the end it never worked that way, but nothing Shirou could have done would have reduced the death toll (even going MoS wouldn't have, IMO, because I think he'd be less likely to win), and even though refusing to kill her the second time is a bit more morally ambiguous, he surely knew Sakura well enough to know that she wouldn't allow herself to go around eating people now that she was aware of the true nature of the shadow.

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I personally come irate at the idea of considering HF a 'healthy' route, but I guess I'll end here too.
And I become irate at the idea of considering the other endings to be "good ends", given that Sakura is still stuck with Zouken, and at the fact that so many people seem to want to deny Sakura her one happy ending.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-12-22 at 09:11.
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Old 2010-12-22, 09:19   Link #3358
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I'll just take the anime's explanation of it. Clearly something had to hurt him.
Didn't Saber put Excalibur in Avalon? Did she do that in the VN? Maybe that's where the difference lies. But if that's the case, my problem comes with how Saber is able to do that all of a sudden after being almost annihilated by Ea.
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Old 2010-12-22, 09:24   Link #3359
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Didn't Saber put Excalibur in Avalon? Did she do that in the VN? Maybe that's where the difference lies. But if that's the case, my problem comes with how Saber is able to do that all of a sudden after being almost annihilated by Ea.
The VN scene is a lot more ambiguous, but Saber does do something. It's not made clear what, but Shirou definitely says that 'like with Berserker, Saber used something I made to defeat the enemy', or something to that effect. So maybe Shirou projected Avalon, and Saber was able to partially activate it? Not enough to give the full protection, but enough to make a barrier to push back Gil's attack or something.
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Old 2010-12-22, 09:33   Link #3360
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The VN scene is a lot more ambiguous, but Saber does do something. It's not made clear what, but Shirou definitely says that 'like with Berserker, Saber used something I made to defeat the enemy', or something to that effect. So maybe Shirou projected Avalon, and Saber was able to partially activate it? Not enough to give the full protection, but enough to make a barrier to push back Gil's attack or something.
Curses! I hate the holidays. I have less free time. I would go check the scene again otherwise.

I need a new job. Better yet, I need to win the lotto and retire. Yes, the lotto. People ask me what would I do with all my free time. I tell them "I'd find something to do, trust me" since I can't say I'd watch anime, read manga, and play visual novels.
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