Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

The thing with the Hucks, something i admit find interesting, is that they're already aware about what's wrong with what they're doing, they just simply think there's really no other option available for them and thus rejected any chances for help. Guess they could leran from Tohma that a chance for a better life do exist.

[Keroko]

For now, the Hucks seem pretty unconvinced, they're pretty sure Thoma's going to go over to their side eventually. And to be fair... the cure the TSAB has is still incomplete. They've stabilized Thoma, but he's far from completely cured and needs Lily close by to avoid relapsing.

It's definitely the morally wrong choice "Hey, let's keep killing people rather than go to that government military developing a cure!" but not also a somewhat understandable one. "Look, we're criminals who learned to live with this anyway. Why bother being in prison while waiting for a "possible" cure?"

[Sansker]

And that is my problem with them, and with the Numbers for that matter, I do not follow that idea that they “didn’t have any other option” even for a second. I don’t like characters that just blame others and their cruel world for the bad things they do. They are the ones who decide to commit crimes and be murders, and all that about being force in to it really come out of place when they clearly have the ability to see what is wrong and what is right. There is always a choice and this guys pick the wrong one and now when face the consequences they just decide not to.

At least Fate and the Wolkenritter knew what they were doing was bad but they were going to do it because their love ones need them to do so. And they do face the consequences of their actions instead of blaming this on others. I just can’t put myself behind the killers in Force or the clumsy cyborgs in StrikerS as I can with Fate and the Wolkenritter. As a matter of fact we never are give any reason of why we should care for them as you guys admit. Part of the tragedy of Fate and the knights came of the fact we do care because the story show us why. Even in the Movie 1st Precia Testarossa gets more personal as we see more of her pain and desperation.

So really it comes down that these new villains are an bunch of murders that clearly show not sings of remorse or regret and they will be befriend.

Also Thoma was cure by Lily, not the TSAB.

[Akiyoshi]

Lily only stabilized Tohma, Shamal is the one treating Tohma's condition. Maybe the Grendels could be the first successful non-zero patients of the cure which eill put the Hucks morale to the test revealing how many of them are really open for redemption.

You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. That's somrthing Nanoha knows and that Tohma needs to learn.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I don’t like characters that just blame others and their cruel world for the bad things they do.

But the Hucks never do this. They're pretty upfront about the whole "Yup, what we're doing is morally wrong. But it's this or death, so, well, sucks to be you."

We're not supposed to care for them in the same way as Fate or the Wolkenritter. It's more that we're supposed to care for the people who want to convince them to stop it.

It's like Luke's attempt to convince Vader to return to the Light Side. We have zero motivation to be sympathetic towards Vader, but we do care about Luke, so we want Vader to return to the Light Side because we're cheering on Luke and want to see him succeed.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Also Thoma was cure by Lily, not the TSAB.

Chapter 16 page 11 to 14. 14 especially shows Shamal talking about how the medics are working on it .

[Sansker]

And I know, I just say the Hucks really fall as a bunch of evil people with nothing worth saving so why Thoma cares so much?

Also "working on it" has not even be follow. Again, just set the idea and forget about it. I am sure it will appear later.

[Keroko]

Because he's a good kid.

Because he knows what the Eclipse virus feels like.

Because he wants to do everything in his powers to stop them.

Because he was saved by people who cared and wants to extend that same hand to them.

Because he was raised in the idealistic Mid that prefers reformation over execution.

Because he was saved and raised by Subaru, whom he also idolizes, who excels in saving people.

Because one of the captains of this unit has an excellent track record of doing so.

Because this is Nanoha.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And I know, I just say the Hucks really fall as a bunch of evil people with nothing worth saving so why Thoma cares so much?

Because A) they showed qualities of people worth saving, and B) someone bothered to save Thoma so there's no reason he shouldn't extend that help to them.

[Sansker]

Short answer: he is an idiot.

Really, so far this is one of the reasons Thoma just doesn’t fit the main role that well as far as I am concern. Is like a simplify passive version of Nanoha. He doesn’t do much, he needs to be save almost half of the time and he just doesn’t get a hint of when people are not listening.

The Hückebein are nothing worth saving so far

[Keroko]

To which I repeat: Neither were the Wolkenritter until the final battle was near.

Yet both Nanoha and Fate (particularly Nanoha) were persistent in trying to talk things out.

Yes, we knew the Wolkenritter weren't all that bad, but Nanoha didn't. All Nanoha knew was that these were constructs created to steal Linker Cores for a magical artifact that absorbs magic and destroys planets.

Yet, like Thoma, she still set out to try and talk to them. Be friends with them.

Because this is Nanoha. And no matter how dark the overall story gets, befriending your foes is a consistent theme.

[Sansker]

No, the Wolkenritter did show them good nature: Signum staying with Fate when she lose her Linker Core until Arf came to pick her up, the warning Zafira gives Arf to protect her companions, Signum’s kingly behavior in general, etc. All hints they were not that bad and maybe open to talk. Really they don’t show the audience alone the characters are likeable but also to the heroes before the final battle.

The Hückebein show even a more dislikeable criminal behavior than the Numbers themselves and our dear Thoma doesn’t even seems to care they go around killing people even when under control of their infection. He just says he will talk to them to repair his debt and he doesn’t even look twice in to them being related to his past, he just takes their word for it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, the Wolkenritter did show them good nature: Signum staying with Fate when she lose her Linker Core until Arf came to pick her up, the warning Zafira gives Arf to protect her companions, Signum’s kingly behavior in general, etc. All hints they were not that bad and maybe open to talk. Really they don’t show the audience alone the characters are likeable but also to the heroes before the final battle.

Which was, what, the second-last battle? The one during which Nanoha was talking to Vita? Weaponless even?

Yeah, no. No excuse for Nanoha.

Originally Posted by Sansker

The Hückebein show even a more dislikeable criminal behavior than the Numbers themselves

How so?

[Rising Dragon]

I'm not sure how "kingly behavior" translates into "good quality". Kings are often tyrants, and Signum's behavior was stoic, not kingly.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm not sure how "kingly behavior" translates into "good quality". Kings are often tyrants, and Signum's behavior was stoic, not kingly.

Actually, not so. There are good kings and bad kings.

It's just that the tyrants actions are so bad that people tend to remember them more.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Actually, not so. There are good kings and bad kings.

It's just that the tyrants actions are so bad that people tend to remember them more.

That was kind of my point.

[Lhklan]

I was just disagreeing about the "often" part. There can be an equal number of good and bad kings.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Which was, what, the second-last battle? The one during which Nanoha was talking to Vita? Weaponless even?

Yeah, no. No excuse for Nanoha.



How so?

Ah, but here is the difference. The Wolkenritter were violent and they did attack them BUT they didn’t kill anyone. Nanoha was just trying to get them and see if she could talk this out once more. In the end the tone of the series justify the actions take it as there is a more innocent feeling around this. Force changes this by having the antagonist be killers who just don’t give a crap and yet the main character cares about them in some really insane behavior.

And again the Numbers were artificial created things by Jail and use by him. Even when they have knowledge of right and wrong they just don’t have normal lives and were raise to be what they are. I still have issues with them but I kind of see what Nove mean as they are only weapons. The Hückebein are not like that. They could do something different and decide to go in to a campaign where they kill and kill because they just feel like it. And you can’t say they just attack the ones who made them because they kill innocent people as well.

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, they were violent but they didn't kill anyone. If that's the case they shouldn't have stopped them at all!

Except, you know, if they didn't, Earth would've been obliterated, like the countless worlds they were already responsible for destroying. Which is way worse than anything the Hucks ever did.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Yeah, they were violent but they didn't kill anyone. If that's the case they shouldn't have stopped them at all!

Except, you know, if they didn't, Earth would've been obliterated, like the countless worlds they were already responsible for destroying. Which is way worse than anything the Hucks ever did.

So? That proof they were not as evil as the Hucks. You miss the point I am trying to make with this guys. I say the Hucks don't show anything worth to be save while the Wolkenritter, and Fate, did show a good nature under their actions that can explain our heroes insistency of talk some sense in to them.

But when it comes down to murder innocent bystanders because you want to, I think is already beyond the point you can talk sense in to them and you need to take actions which Thoma doesn't seem like to.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Ah, but here is the difference. The Wolkenritter were violent and they did attack them BUT they didn’t kill anyone.

But have a reputation of killing spanning back millennia. And Nanoha was this close to being killed over a hat herself. Nanoha didn't know about their no-killing policy. To her, she was still confronting the greatest mass murderers in trans-dimensional history.

Originally Posted by Sansker

And again the Numbers were artificial created things by Jail and use by him. Even when they have knowledge of right and wrong they just don’t have normal lives and were raise to be what they are. I still have issues with them but I kind of see what Nove mean as they are only weapons. The Hückebein are not like that. They could do something different and decide to go in to a campaign where they kill and kill because they just feel like it. And you can’t say they just attack the ones who made them because they kill innocent people as well.

And I won't. Because they do. Though while on the subject, they are playing a Punisher role in taking out the companies creating more Infected, but which are shielded by walls of lawyers obstructing the law enforcers. If you want evidence of them doing something good, there's one.

Though like I said, this is less of a case of rooting for the Hucks because "aww, those poor little victims!" and more rooting for Thoma because "If Luke Skywalker can do it, so can you!"