[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[LaplaceNoMa]

In the first episode, when the rain starts, we see a scene in Kinzo's study. Then, the narrator first says something like 'The rain started later than it was predicted in the forecast'. And almost imediately Kinzo says 'You're late, Beatrice', while facing the sky.

I wonder, if Oliver's theory on Yamashita gold, as well as the way Kinzo came to know Genji, is true, we can actually conclude that 'Beatrice' is actually the name of the typhoon :lol: Well, this typhoon could have 'granted' Kinzo the miracle of 10 tons of gold, after all...

[gdmcrjunkie]

Another very late comer here. I apologise in advance if this has been gone over thoroughly before.

I've been concentrating on the logic error part... No problem with the closed guest room as I think Beatrice was referring to the time before Kanon and Battler switched places when she said "Kanon does not exist in the guest room." Kanon also was probably the one who left the letter. But I need help with how he got out of the cousins' room. I think the Shkanon theory contradicts the red truth so I can't accept it, can anyone direct me to other theories regarding the cousins' room?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie

Another very late comer here. I apologise in advance if this has been gone over thoroughly before.

I've been concentrating on the logic error part... No problem with the closed guest room as I think Beatrice was referring to the time before Kanon and Battler switched places when she said "Kanon does not exist in the guest room." Kanon also was probably the one who left the letter. But I need help with how he got out of the cousins' room. I think the Shkanon theory contradicts the red truth so I can't accept it, can anyone direct me to other theories regarding the cousins' room?

Can't say I think you're on the right track there. From what we've seen, unless there is white or blue text referencing a specific time used in conjunction with the red, the time of the gameboard when the red is used is the time it references.
Shkanon does not contradict the red if you're clever enough to see how, but it does annoy quite a few people (me included), so while you can use it in making your theory, expect some opposition.
On theories that don't use Shkanon, you could use the Kinzo Title Theory, that Kinzo's name is a title granted to the head of the Ushiromiya family (or a similar concept), you could say that in the time between the name check and the sealing of the rooms in red, Kanon slipped out, but this one's a little thin.
Or you could try and think up something original to surprise us.

[gdmcrjunkie]

From what we've seen, unless there is white or blue text referencing a specific time used in conjunction with the red, the time of the gameboard when the red is used is the time it references.

Time was stopped after Erika entered the room, before she turned on the lights. "This way, all the moves for both players will be made at the same time, and the first move made will be treated no differently than the last move." That's how Erika went back and repaired the chain. Erika stated it's a retroactive move, but there's no rule that says retroactive moves have to be announced. Beatrice didn't specify a time for Kanon's nonexistence in the room, so Erika (and the readers) would automatically think she was talking about the room's state after Battler left. I'd say that trick's nasty enough that Battler would take note of it :D

All people can only use their own names as well as other red truths throughout the games about Kanon and Shannon are why I can't accept the Shkanon theory. I guess they could all be twisted around to support the theory, but in the end it just seems off to me...

About the other theories, thanks, I'll give them some thought :)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie

Beatrice didn't specify a time for Kanon's nonexistence in the room, so Erika (and the readers) would automatically think she was talking about the room's state after Battler left. I'd say that trick's nasty enough that Battler would take note of it

There is really no point to this reasoning. Whether Kanon doesn't exist immediately after he entered or before it is irrelevant . The point is Only Kanon and Erika entered and only Battler left. Kanon is the rescuer, which is defined as 'the person who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. And the chain lock can only be reset from the inside

The only way around him not existing in the guestroom is death or personality death. Which we know means you don't exist from the reds about Kinzo.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

I wonder, if Oliver's theory on Yamashita gold, as well as the way Kinzo came to know Genji, is true, we can actually conclude that 'Beatrice' is actually the name of the typhoon :lol: Well, this typhoon could have 'granted' Kinzo the miracle of 10 tons of gold, after all...

Actually... Considering that Beatrice-1 need not be an actual person, that Beatrice can indeed be a typhoon -- who's name Kinzo used to call an actual woman which we know as Beatrice-2.

To be more precise, Tropical Storm Beatrice, which occurred in 1947, fits. It's weaker than a typhoon, but more than enough to wash up gold from a shipwreck of 1945, for example, if it hits the island just right, or otherwise cause Kinzo to discover the gold. Unfortunately I can't find any specific information on it's course online.

EDIT: Way too far:


That doesn't mean Ryukishi knows that, though.

[gdmcrjunkie]

Whether Kanon doesn't exist immediately after he entered or before it is irrelevant . The point is Only Kanon and Erika entered and only Battler left. Kanon is the rescuer, which is defined as 'the person who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. And the chain lock can only be reset from the inside

Which is why the time Beatrice is referring to is relevant. I'm saying Beatrice was referring to the time before Battler left when she said Kanon doesn't exist in the room, which means afterwards while Erika was busy in the bathroom they switched places and Kanon still exists inside the room. And that scene with the raincoat refers to time rewinding. That's how I see it, though I guess I'm not doing a good job at explaining it.

The only way around him not existing in the guestroom is death or personality death. Which we know means you don't exist from the reds about Kinzo.

Yeah, death is my second favourite theory. But all the same...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie

Which is why the time Beatrice is referring to is relevant. I'm saying Beatrice was referring to the time before Battler left when she said Kanon doesn't exist in the room, which means afterwards while Erika was busy in the bathroom they switched places and Kanon still exists inside the room. And that scene with the raincoat refers to time rewinding. That's how I see it, though I guess I'm not doing a good job at explaining it.

Then the red is only being set to a time that's convenient for you instead of the context of the game. The red is time specific if it was before Battler left she would've said that's the context, but she didn't so she wouldn't be using that trick now. It doesn't work like that sorry. By the time the logic error happened time was pretty much frozen. Well I guess you could say it's game over. I don't know where you got this idea of time rewinding because that doesn't happen.

Also Knox's 2nd forbids using the the red truth as a method to solve problems like this.

[Kylon99]

I've got one more idea as to why the Epitaph Fakery may be centered around Battler. I was re-reading EP4 a bit and Kinzo indicates that they 'all' have had ample time but have failed to solve the Epitaph. Now, that is a fantasy scene, but...

I wouldn't put it p--

I mean, it's possible that Kinzo intended to give Battler a chance at solving the Epitaph since he had never seen it before; while everyone on the island did. So while everyone else is fair game for participation on the Epitaph (and thus, no longer qualified to solve it?) ... Battler is not.

EDIT: And so, if Battler also fails, then the chance for the Epitaph to be solved is also closed forever for everyone. And so that's why the Epitaph Fakery had to wait for him to come back; because that determined how gold was split up. Maybe. .... sounds plausible?

EDIT2: It's a game! This is right after he told the siblings that they would no longer be able to succeed by solving the Epitaph and then ranting about giving the cousins a test. But then..even if solving the Epitaph is out, the Epitaph is still some kind of game? Where you STILL need to solve it?
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2545/uminekogame.png
EDIT3: Left two lines out: " And thereby stop this ceremony. Those are the only two ways!!"

Maybe now it's... The Deadliest Game of them all...

Dammit, there are so many references to it being some kind of game... I think we should figure out just what kind of game it is. If it's a game there must be rules, procedures, players, play area.... Maybe we can figure out how this game works and subtract all it's particulars from the story. Wouldn't that expose the culprit?

[Judoh]

Doesn't episode 5 disprove a lot of that?

[zRyuu]

I'd say its more like a play . Well, the game could be Find the culprit! Battler = the detective, person X = the culprit. A late birthday present for him?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie

All people can only use their own names as well as other red truths throughout the games about Kanon and Shannon are why I can't accept the Shkanon theory.

Well how do you interpret this red truth? If you think that people are only allowed to use their proper names, then we have a logic error, because the red truths concerning "Shannon" and "Kanon" never use their original names.

Allow me to use some reds to clarify my point. These weren't said in the game but I think they reflect facts that everyone agrees about:

"Shannon" and "Kanon" are nicknames.
People are allowed to have many different names. And red truths can use any of them to refer to that particular person.

I don't think it's really possible to deny these two claims. And if it is possible for a single person to be called both "Sayo" and "Shannon", then it's also possible for a single person to be called both "Kanon" and "Shannon".
Therefore the limit of that red truth you mentioned is that the name used in the red must be a name that the person in question actually uses.

For example Hachijo Tohya and Itouikukuro Reigonamu are the same person, even though for the world they are believed to be two distinct writers.


If you don't accept this reasoning, not only shkanon can't be true, but also ghosterika and Kinzo-Kanon. At that point how do you solve the final riddle?

[gdmcrjunkie]

Jan-Poo, now that I think about it I can't remember a scene where the detective of the game saw Shannon and Kanon together, and for me that's more convincing than anything. I'll need to reread the previous Episodes to decide whether I support the theory or not but right now I don't have an argument against it.

Judoh, I disagree. I think such a usage of the red truth is possible only in that situation when time was stopped. But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd be just as happy with the Kanon died in the guest room theory.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

For example Hachijo Tohya and Itouikukuro Reigonamu are the same person, even though for the world they are believed to be two distinct writers.

I'm still not so sure they aren't two distinct writers.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually... Considering that Beatrice-1 need not be an actual person, that Beatrice can indeed be a typhoon -- who's name Kinzo used to call an actual woman which we know as Beatrice-2.

To be more precise, Tropical Storm Beatrice, which occurred in 1947, fits. It's weaker than a typhoon, but more than enough to wash up gold from a shipwreck of 1945, for example, if it hits the island just right, or otherwise cause Kinzo to discover the gold. Unfortunately I can't find any specific information on it's course online.

EDIT: Way too far:


That doesn't mean Ryukishi knows that, though.

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

In the first episode, when the rain starts, we see a scene in Kinzo's study. Then, the narrator first says something like 'The rain started later than it was predicted in the forecast'. And almost imediately Kinzo says 'You're late, Beatrice', while facing the sky.

I wonder, if Oliver's theory on Yamashita gold, as well as the way Kinzo came to know Genji, is true, we can actually conclude that 'Beatrice' is actually the name of the typhoon :lol: Well, this typhoon could have 'granted' Kinzo the miracle of 10 tons of gold, after all...

That's a quite nice piece of information ('you're late'), and too much of a coincidence of 'names'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940%E2...Storm_Beatrice

As for the distance, the gold doesn't necessarily needs to be found by Kinzo on Izu islands (is there any information that the gold was given to him there?).

Whatever. That reinforces the idea of Beatrice being a natural disaster.


EDIT:
Just a piece more of information:
By the time of the family meeting (October, 1986), the tropical typhoon was called 'Carmen' and this is its route:

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

As for the distance, the gold doesn't necessarily needs to be found by Kinzo on Izu islands (is there any information that the gold was given to him there?).

It is mostly a problem of transporting 10 tons of gold. Takes people whom you need to silence afterwards.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Whatever. That reinforces the idea of Beatrice being a natural disaster.

Beatrice-1, yes. Beatrice-2 and Beatrice-3, no, not really, they're clearly people.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

By the time of the family meeting (October, 1986), the tropical typhoon was called 'Carmen' and this is its route:

If you check the dates on that route you'll notice that it turned north to actually approach Izu long after the conference was already over.

EDIT:

And then I noticed that "Tropical Storm Beatrice" was #19 in that year...

[theacefrehley]

Maybe the Beatrice of the end of EP4, too :

In red:
そしてたった今。この島にはあなた以外誰もいません。この島で生きているのは、あなただけです。島の外の存 在は一切干渉できません。
この島にあなたはたった一人。@そしてもちろん、私はあなたではない。なのに私は今、ここにいて、これから あなたを殺します。

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Maybe the Beatrice of the end of EP4, too :

A human could do it by setting up the endgame explosion, which, by now, unambiguously exists, so.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm still not so sure they aren't two distinct writers.

Well okay, but in that case I'll just change the subject:

Richard Bachman and Stephen King are the same person.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well okay, but in that case I'll just change the subject:

Richard Bachman and Stephen King are the same person.

Shhhhh, you'll spoil it! But yes, if you were talking about Richard Bachman, you could essentially use red text that called him "Stephen King," because the one is an alias of the other.

How about: Andy Kaufman and Tony Clifton are the same person... except when they aren't.

EDIT: Now that I think on it, this isn't entirely off-topic. Think about this: What if "Beatrice" is two or more people? How many reds can we apply to "Beatrice," for example? If Person X as "Beatrice" commits an act, we can theoretically say "Beatrice" did it. But if Person Y is also "Beatrice," we cannot say Person Y did it. That could, theoretically, lead to a situation where both Person X and Person Y are excluded from suspicion because each is innocent of an act committed by "Beatrice."

...wait, isn't that the plot of Scream?