One Piece - Chapter 670 [manga]

[randomlex]

Originally Posted by marvelB

You're..... kind of missing his point, methinks. True, logia users may be overpowered but even THEY'RE not invincible when faced with either their "weakness" (water and rubber for Croc and Eneru respectively) or a powerful haki user. And considering that the New World is undoubtedly filled with the latter, Law's ability is definitely going to look cheap even amongst the "godlike" element users (and don't forget that it was even already confirmed that Law can use haki himself..... that right there is almost overkill). So yeah, I think I'm gonna agree with James on this one.....

Or being dumped into water - Smoker, for example, would've been dead a long time ago (in Alabasta) if Luffy didn't decide to save his sorry hammer ass ...

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Kona

But he isn't top tier, if he was he wouldn't be asking for help to take down a Yonkou.

Like I said, its not about him being top tier, but his ability.

Its like Enel, who also has one of the strongest Logia abilities so far, but he himself isn't a top tier fighter.

Heck, even Foxy's Noro Noro beam is a top tier ability, the ability to slow people down to almost a standstill is no joke. Imagine if a top tier fighter used it, the battle at Marineford would literally be a walk in the park. But alas, Foxy is not a top tier fighter.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by marvelB

You're..... kind of missing his point, methinks. True, logia users may be overpowered but even THEY'RE not invincible when faced with either their "weakness" (water and rubber for Croc and Eneru respectively) or a powerful haki user. And considering that the New World is undoubtedly filled with the latter, Law's ability is definitely going to look cheap even amongst the "godlike" element users (and don't forget that it was even already confirmed that Law can use haki himself..... that right there is almost overkill). So yeah, I think I'm gonna agree with James on this one.....

The known and the unknown
If you look at most devil fruit users you can understand the the properties. Luffy is rubber (Which has a weakness to sharp objects), Akainu's is Magma (Akoiji can match it with Ice), White Beard had the quake fruit (WG created a wall that resisted his powers), and we understand it because they exist. For Law's Devil fruit power, how do you explain it or counter it? It does not exist in life, I think the unknown factor is what make Law's devil fruit seem to powerful or cheap by some. Second Law's power that makes him strong is also his weakness. His ability to use his devil fruit depends on his ability to stay in the room. He has the same weakness to haki, water, and sea stones like all other devil fruit users. Law is also not the only person to have haki either, so it would not be overkill for him to have it. If anything it is a necessary requirement.

[C.A.]

Not everything will have an obvious weakness or complete counter, some things just don't have a crippling weak point.

Devil fruit abilities are just another fighting style and weapon like all other weapons. Is there a crippling weakness to Mihawk's sword, Rayleigh's physical powers, White Beard's quakes or Haki in general?

[grey_1960]

^
But the more you know about it the better off you are and the easier it is to exploit. Everything has a weakness. Mihawk's Sword has nothing to do with its power, it is the user. For Physical Powers like Rayleigh and White Beard it would be age. White Beard's quake was countered three times. One was the special metal the WG built, and the Admirals deflected it with Haki, and the last one was using Ace to protect them from the full might of White Beards Quake. Has for Haki some were along the road someone will figure out where the crack in the armor is. For now a strong fighting skills and haki is good way to counter other haki users. Some people are harder to kill then others, thats all.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

^
But the more you know about it the better off you are and the easier it is to exploit. Everything has a weakness. Mihawk's Sword has nothing to do with its power, it is the user. For Physical Powers like Rayleigh and White Beard it would be age. White Beard's quake was countered three times. One was the special metal the WG built, and the Admirals deflected it with Haki, and the last one was using Ace to protect them from the full might of White Beards Quake. Has for Haki some were along the road someone will figure out where the crack in the armor is. For now a strong fighting skills and haki is good way to counter other haki users.

But what you've mentioned are not crippling weak points like rubber to Enel's lightning.

The metal wall that blocked White Beard's quake is not his ultimate counter, its a wall that's strong enough to block just about everything.

That's exactly what I mean three posts earlier, abilities with no weaknesses like Law's just need pure skill and brute force to defeat.

At the highest level of power, its a pure contest between the Haki and physical power of the fighters, its no longer just about exploiting weaknesses that would turn battles into your favour. Everyone would be so strong that they've covered all their weaknesses and have all the Haki and power to fight all out.

[grey_1960]

^
They are weakness if they affect the performance in negative way. They can also be ultimate ones if they lead to your defeat. Your example of rubber was not the sliver bullet for Enel like you think. Enel survived and went to the moon. For the Metal wall it did the job it was intended to do, that was to contain White Beards power. Even at the highest level you can exploit fights. Look at White Beard, Marco, and Jozu. White Beard had a heart attack and Marco got distracted and taken down by Kizaru. Jozu got distracted and lost to Akoiji. You can still exploit people's weakness no matter how high they are on the ladder.

[C.A.]

Well if you can argue that Rubber is not Enel's ultimate weakness, then there's nothing I can reason with.

Luffy being the only guy who was completely invulnerable against lightning and could take apart his electron bomb with zero harm, he was Enel's ultimate weakness.

The argument here is about abilities and their weaknesses, and I view them as types of weapons, we're not arguing about the characters themselves. Whitebeard's old age and distraction are not the weaknesses of his ability.

And did the wall really contain all of Whitebeard's quakes? If it did, the island wouldn't have taken so much damage from the quake ability. The island took way more damage from the quakes in comparison to luffy taking no damage at all from Enel's lightning.

[grey_1960]

^The user defines the abilities
White Beard age is an weakness to his abilities if it affect the performance. The fact is the character is a big determinate on how the ability is used and what weakness it has. Look at luffy and ability rubber. He punched bunch of spike shards with his fist in chapter 667. He used arm haki to over come the sharp objects and destroyed them. Two years ago he would not be able to do that. Second compare White Beard and Black Beard. Those are two different people but they have one thing in common. They both have used the the quake fruit. You think the Quake fruits use will not be different under Black Beard then White Beard? The quake fruit of far more threatening under Black Beard then it was under White Beard. White Beard wanted a family and he was a good man. Black Beard does not care about innocent people, his crew is made up of level six prisoners. Yes the character matters when it comes to abilities.

[Divine Punisher]

ehm... sorry, but i dont think laws DF is broken. He can basically rearrange everything within a certain space thats the crucial point. weve seen foes with less obvious weak points.
Also, we dont know how his powers would hold up against a busoshoku haki-user. btw, the surprise effect weighs in here, too. if you dont know exactly whats coming, you cant really counter it. im confident that if law and smoker had a rematch, its going to be a closer outcome than in the first fight.
...or maybe im prejudiced because hes an ally of the SHs

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

^The user defines the abilities
White Beard age is an weakness to his abilities if it affect the performance. The fact is the character is a big determinate on how the ability is used and what weakness it has. Look at luffy and ability rubber. He punched bunch of spike shards with his fist in chapter 667. He used arm haki to over come the sharp objects and destroyed them. Two years ago he would not be able to do that. Second compare White Beard and Black Beard. Those are two different people but they have one thing in common. They both have used the the quake fruit. You think the Quake fruits use will not be different under Black Beard then White Beard? The quake fruit of far more threatening under Black Beard then it was under White Beard. White Beard wanted a family and he was a good man. Black Beard does not care about innocent people, his crew is made up of level six prisoners. Yes the character matters when it comes to abilities.

No, that's not what the ongoing discussion is about. What we've been talking about here is whether Law's ability is overpowered and whether it needs a weakness.

Lets say Law's ability is the M-16 rifle and Whitebeard's ability is the AK-47. Is the AK-47 a weaker weapon compared to the M-16 because Whitebeard is old and dying? No, Whitebeard's condition has nothing to do with whether the AK-47 is weak or not.

We are comparing abilities here, is Law's Ope Ope fruit overpowered compared to other Devil Fruits and does it need a weakness like a time limit as James suggested.

My argument is no, the Ope Ope ability would not have a natural weakness and is similar to Kuma's ability. And I think the closest thing to a weakness for the ability is its 'casting speed' and range.

[james0246]

^Considering that Law has vastly reduced his "weaknesses" (range and casting time) with simple training, they are not very effective weaknesses. As it stands, there is seemingly no limit to Law's power especially when he can utilize his Haki.

That being said, I've also critiqued Kuma's powers (and a few others) multiple times in the past, so I'm at least consistant .

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by C.A.

No, that's not what the ongoing discussion is about. What we've been talking about here is whether Law's ability is overpowered and whether it needs a weakness.

Lets say Law's ability is the M-16 rifle and White beard's ability is the AK-47. Is the AK-47 a weaker weapon compared to the M-16 because White beard is old and dying? No, White beard's condition has nothing to do with whether the AK-47 is weak or not.

We are comparing abilities here, is Law's Ope Ope fruit overpowered compared to other Devil Fruits and does it need a weakness like a time limit as James suggested.

My argument is no, the Ope Ope ability would not have a natural weakness and is similar to Kuma's ability. And I think the closest thing to a weakness for the ability is its 'casting speed' and range.

The Devil Fruit
My answer to the ongoing discussion is on Link # 31 page 2 of this forum. I did understand it, that is why I was against limiting Laws power.

Has for Law’s fruit it does have a natural weakness. The Devil Fruits in general endow its users with power. But it comes at a cost, the user becomes natural weak against water, seas stones, and its power can be neutralized by Haki. One of the greatest strengths of the devil fruit is the user, in that same sense it is also the weakness. Look at tashigi, she can not even use smoker’s ability, and Smoker is a master at it. Luffy’s gum gum no pistol failed against ace when they were kids, today the move is lethal. I would say one of the greatest weaknesses for Law’s Fruit the Ope Ope, is it requires the user to make a room first, and stay inside it in order to use it. With law not being a strong one on one fighter I think Smoker would win the rematch. I also think Luffy and Zoro can defeat Law, both of them are close quarter fighters like Smoker. Another great weakness and strength is not understanding the fruits application. Enel understood his logia could enhance his mantra, also he understood he could travel through metal, but he never heard of rubber before until he fought with Luffy.

Finally rifle does not compare to the Devil fruit. The Devil fruit may be standard in fruit, the weaknesses it bestows upon the person that eats it, and bad taste, but the powers it gives the the person can range from spring legs (Bellamy) to splitting earth apart (White Beard and Black Beard).

[james0246]

^Law, with Haki, is essentially a god in the Rooms he creates. As he has trained his powers, he can make the rooms faster and larger. Since we currently know of no limits to his powers, it is conceivable that Law can reduce his casting time even further, and create even larger rooms. Consequently, since we know of no limits or specific weaknesses (beyond general DF weaknesses), it is conceivable that Law will one day be able to encompass entire islands (if not more) in his rooms and do anything to almost anyone he wants (save for potentially Blackbeard or those with Haki that surpass Law's or a Logia that could fill an entire room (maybe)).

[C.A.]

@grey_1960:

Taking sea water and seastone into the picture adds nothing to the argument that Law's ability is overpowered or not, because all Devil Fruits are weak against the sea. The same for Haki, because its effective against everything. The sea and Haki are not the natural weakness for Law's ability, its the weakness for all Devil Fruits.

Practice is not the Devil Fruit's weakness, it is the user's own capability. Luffy as a kid was just not good at fighting, you can give him any fruit and he won't be able to show how good those abilities are.

Lets say there's a fruit called AK-47 fruit, this gives the user the ability to use an AK-47, and another fruit called katana fruit, which allows the user to use a katana, there's also a fruit called grenade fruit, which allows the user to throw grenades.

These fruits gives the users powers that range from shooting over long distances, slicing stuff apart to causing explosive damage. At the same time, each fruit also gives the user different weakness, AK-47 ability has to reload ammo, katana has short range, grenade can damage the user himself.

These fruits also require the users to practice with them to become an expert. AK-47 ability requires marksmanship training, rifle maintenance and gun handling, katana requires swordsmanship and strength training, grenade requires bomb handling and explosive technical knowledge.

Devil Fruits are just another type of weapon and fighting style.

[james0246]

^Good point, I hadn't thought of that possibility. It would interesting as well, considering that he is thought of as a bloodthirsty individual (which is somewhat supported by the fact that even though he was appalled by Caesar's treatment of the kids, he was still more than willing to leave them behind). It is hard to say one way or another, especially if it is unknown whether he killed the pirates whose hearts he took, or if he is like Moira and simply inconvienced them.

Admittedly, even if potentially Law doesn't kill, that doesn't mean the Ope Ope Fruit can't kill.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Law, with Haki, is essentially a god in the Rooms he creates. As he has trained his powers, he can make the rooms faster and larger. Since we currently know of no limits to his powers, it is conceivable that Law can reduce his casting time even further, and create even larger rooms. Consequently, since we know of no limits or specific weaknesses (beyond general DF weaknesses), it is conceivable that Law will one day be able to encompass entire islands (if not more) in his rooms and do anything to almost anyone he wants (save for potentially Blackbeard or those with Haki that surpass Law's or a Logia that could fill an entire room (maybe)).

Law being singled out
Law's potential and his powers are no different from the Akoiji and Akianu who can change the landscape of an Island, White Beard power to sink Marine Ford or any other Island, Akoiji who can freeze whole oceans, Shiki who can make whole Islands float. Then you have Black Beard who has the quake fruit, Logia fruit, and still searching. What happens when he gets the perfect zoan fruit to complement his two other fruits? What if Enel comes back and has king haki, and armor haki in his arsenal? What if Big Mama and Kaidou have powerful devil fruits like White Beards? My deal is there are tons of fighters with the same potential if not more, but Law is the one getting scrutinized about his powers being too much.

Originally Posted by C.A.

@grey_1960:
Taking sea water and seastone into the picture adds nothing to the argument that Law's ability is overpowered or not, because all Devil Fruits are weak against the sea. The same for Haki, because its effective against everything. The sea and Haki are not the natural weakness for Law's ability, its the weakness for all Devil Fruits.

Practice is not the Devil Fruit's weakness, it is the user's own capability. Luffy as a kid was just not good at fighting, you can give him any fruit and he won't be able to show how good those abilities are.

Lets say there's a fruit called AK-47 fruit, this gives the user the ability to use an AK-47, and another fruit called katana fruit, which allows the user to use a katana, there's also a fruit called grenade fruit, which allows the user to throw grenades.

These fruits gives the users powers that range from shooting over long distances, slicing stuff apart to causing explosive damage. At the same time, each fruit also gives the user different weakness, AK-47 ability has to reload ammo, katana has short range, grenade can damage the user himself.

These fruits also require the users to practice with them to become an expert. AK-47 ability requires marksmanship training, rifle maintenance and gun handling, katana requires swordsmanship and strength training, grenade requires bomb handling and explosive technical knowledge.

Devil Fruits are just another type of weapon and fighting style.

Who values what and why do they use it then?
Seas stone and Sea water are very much in play. The fact that Impel down uses it to control devil Fruit users, Marco was subdued by Seas stone cuff during the Marine Ford War (he was useless until they got the cuff off of him), and the fact that Smoker uses Seas Stone on the tip of his weapon proves it has value and it can be used in a fight. Even the Marines (at Impel down waters trying to stop No.1 and Croc) have mention that they are devil fruit users, all we need to do is push them over board into the water. Kizaru went unchallenged in the Saboday arch except for one person, Sliver Raleigh was able to cut Kizaru and hold him back thanks to haki. You are wrong if you think Haki, Sea stone, or Sea Water are not in play when considering Laws abilities are over powered or not. If anything Haki has been the greatest asset for resisting and gaining advantage against devil fruit users. Look at the recent chapters with Luffy. He has handled three logia users now, all thanks to haki. If his and Zoro's haki are equal or stronger then Laws, then they will have no problems inside Law's Room. Smoker even mentioned about the level of Haki to tashigi when she tried to attack Law. If Seas Stone, Sea Water, and Haki are not considered natural weaknesses then why is being used against devil fruit users and their power? Why are the marines using it? Why would Smoker use a Sea Stone tipped weapon against Law and any other devil fruit user? Why would someone like Rayleigh use Haki or even teach it to Luffy if it has no value against devil fruit users or their power. Yes they are natural weaknesses because they have proven effective against Devil Fruit users and there powers.

No I never said practice was a weakness. I was using Luffy’s Gum Gum No pistol past and present and Smoker and Tashigi handling of the smoke fruit, was to show that the user can be the strength or the weakness of the devil fruit.

You can disagree all you want or go with the assault rifle example but I have shown you evidence to back up my argument and they are all related to the One Piece Universe.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Well, we don't know, if he can really do "anything he wants". So far it looks like he isn't able to kill people inside of his room.
All the people he slices up survive (in different pieces), and the marines are also still alive. Technically he has no reason to let them alive and only take away their phones. And why did he only remove Smoker's heart instead of trying to kill him instantly?
To me it looks like killing is not possible inside the room. (Which would make sense, if we take it as a doctor's ability)

Nice observation
I did not notice that at all with Law’s power. You have good question. The only bad part is it now raises even more questions. That would also be very odd for a devil fruit if you could not kill people with it.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Who values what and why do they use it then?
Seas stone and Sea water are very much in play. The fact that Impel down uses it to control devil Fruit users, Marco was subdued by Seas stone cuff during the Marine Ford War (he was useless until they got the cuff off of him), and the fact that Smoker uses Seas Stone on the tip of his weapon proves it has value and it can be used in a fight. Even the Marines (at Impel down waters trying to stop No.1 and Croc) have mention that they are devil fruit users, all we need to do is push them over board into the water. Kizaru went unchallenged in the Saboday arch except for one person, Sliver Raleigh was able to cut Kizaru and hold him back thanks to haki. You are wrong if you think Haki, Sea stone, or Sea Water are not in play when considering Laws abilities are over powered or not. If anything Haki has been the greatest asset for resisting and gaining advantage against devil fruit users. Look at the recent chapters with Luffy. He has handled three logia users now, all thanks to haki. If his and Zoro's haki are equal or stronger then Laws, then they will have no problems inside Law's Room. Smoker even mentioned about the level of Haki to tashigi when she tried to attack Law. If Seas Stone, Sea Water, and Haki are not considered natural weaknesses then why is being used against devil fruit users and their power? Why are the marines using it? Why would Smoker use a Sea Stone tipped weapon against Law and any other devil fruit user? Why would someone like Rayleigh use Haki or even teach it to Luffy if it has no value against devil fruit users or their power. Yes they are natural weaknesses because they have proven effective against Devil Fruit users and there powers.

No I never said practice was a weakness. I was using Luffy’s Gum Gum No pistol past and present and Smoker and Tashigi handling of the smoke fruit, was to show that the user can be the strength or the weakness of the devil fruit.

You can disagree all you want or go with the assault rifle example but I have shown you evidence to back up my argument and they are all related to the One Piece Universe.

With all due respect, all the good points you brought up has nothing to do with this discussion.

The discussion is: Is Law's ability overpowered compared to other Devil Fruits.

In order to compare the abilities in the most objective and fair manner, we are comparing abilities to abilities, not the characters.

All Devil Fruit abilities render their users weak against sea water and sea stone, Haki ignores the abilities, its a moot point to bring them into the argument.

Even if you say Ope Ope is weak against sea stone and Haki, so is Enel's lightning and Crocodile's sand. But Ope Ope is still overpowered compared to lightning because lightning has a extra natural weakness of rubber an sand has an extra natural weakness of water. Ope Ope has no natural weakness of such, that cripples the ability beyond sea stone and Haki.

And because we are discussion abilities itself, it is like a weapon. Each ability has their own 'specs', own area of specialism, its own function and limitations.

If this was some other discussion, there's nothing for me to argue about, but this discussion is solely on the abilities, which you are arguing in a completely off manner.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Law being singled out
Law's potential and his powers are no different from the Akoiji and Akianu who can change the landscape of an Island, White Beard power to sink Marine Ford or any other Island, Akoiji who can freeze whole oceans, Shiki who can make whole Islands float. Then you have Black Beard who has the quake fruit, Logia fruit, and still searching. What happens when he gets the perfect zoan fruit to complement his two other fruits? What if Enel comes back and has king haki, and armor haki in his arsenal? What if Big Mama and Kaidou have powerful devil fruits like White Beards? My deal is there are tons of fighters with the same potential if not more, but Law is the one getting scrutinized about his powers being too much.

I always comment on characters that I believe have overpowered abilities (though I don't think the Darkness fruit is necessarily overpowered). I've had several discussions on this forum over other fruits that I think are overpowered (most notably, Kuma's Paw Paw fruit). So, it is not like my analysis of Ope Ope is without precedent.

That being said, there are many powers out there that can destroy large portions of the planet. There is no debate over that issue. The problem with Ope Ope is that it is creates an area in which the character can become a demi-god with seemingly no limits (unlike most other DF powers (Whitebeard's Quake fruit was also overpowered, but it was at least described as having the ability to destroy the planet, so there were no surprises )). It has no real weakness (besides Haki, and since Law can also utilize Haki, he can neutralize his opponents Haki thus eliminating the weakness from most opponents), and can seemingly be used anywhere at anytime (save for, presumably, under water). In terms of offense and defense, it is almost perfect (since it can control everything within the space), and when you add Haki it becomes even more powerful (and increasing it's range makes it even more powerful as well).

This is why I wondered if, and hoped that, the fruit would have a natural weakness that we do not know about yet. Small One is correct in that we haven't seen Law killing anyone yet, so it is possible that the fruit does not allow death (though, this could also just be Law (since he is a doctor), or Oda could have simply decided not to show him killing anyone on screen), which would be a pretty important weakness/limit.

[golgo13]

Law's power will seem over powered until he gets pwned. This seems to happen with many new powers we see, even the fight between smoker and law it wasn't obvious smoker could lose initially.

It's the battle between powers and the unique consequences of abilities that make one piece so awesome.

Small example to counter law, who says that even a character like alvida couldn't make the room or law simply slip away during battle..

Seems like if the character is fast, can jump or dig, or even enclose themselves they can escape the room. Haki powered sword may even slice it.