(CR) White Album (All Episodes, 1-26)

[Yu Ominae]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

Its possible but we'll have to see if Yayoi is certainly all business about it or if she does develop romantic feelings for Touya down the line.

Don't know why I seem interested in that. Probably because Romi makes Yayoi so sexy.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by faust123

Just like a number of other people, I don't quite get the hate for touya. All of his actions throughout the series seem to indicate he IS a good person (helping misaki is our most explicit example).

I think a lot of people need to put his situation in a context they could more easily understand. Say you have a long distance relationship with a girlfriend who is in medical school. She is extremely busy, and one of her friends tell you that you would just be in her way if you tried to stay together. What would you do? Would you be able to swallow your pride and even admit to her that you are worried about the relationship? If you took the "direct" approach, would you REALLY believe your girlfriend if she told you everything was fine? I think the answer is that this is something that you wouldn't really want to do.

1. if she wasn't thinking about it, now she is
2. if she was thinking about it this will just expedite things
3. you look weak and as if you lack confidence when you bring up this concern

Touya seems to have finally reached the conclusion that their relationship is unsalvagable. Now I will readily admit that the action he took after this realization was not exactly his best option, but in his state can we really blame him? Right now he knows the relationship is probably going to end, but there is still a part of him that doesn't want it to. This probably explains his rather indirect actions - if he tells yuki they should break up, that's it, it's over, but this way, things drag on a little longer (again because this isn't really what he wants).

What I'm basically saying is, before you make quick value judgments about him, relax, and may be take a look in the mirror. I can't believe I am seeing words like "deplorable" thrown around describing his behavior. There has been nothing to indicate that he is a bad person. He is a normal person making normal mistakes. Let's just chill on the hyperbole until we see how things play out because I doubt he will ever get to the makoto level (where I would be ok with "deplorable").

How can he determine they've reached the end of the line? She invited him to the festival at the school after all, so its not over.

[prototype_sky]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

How can he determine they've reached the end of the line? She invited him to the festival at the school after all, so its not over.

He was too shell shocked with guilt to listen to that invitation

[Reckoner]

I cannot agree with the point that the series does nothing to get sympathy from the viewers for its characters. The reason I say this is because the only difference between this show and others like Clannad is really just the contrived vs. subtle drama.

This point must be stressed since it is the reason that many cannot feel "connected" to the these characters. I think people feel that they are in a strange position since they can't truly determine what the true character is of our different heroines and Touya.

White Album lets there characters be analyzed by the viewer and does not force-feed anything. Take our main character, Touya, we learn much about him when he goes completely out of his way to help Misaki out. Now the viewer can deduct either one of two things, Touya is a caring person, or he is just using this as a method of escapism from his problems (Not actually being caring). Depending on your interpretation, Touya can be developed radically different in your eyes as a character.

Spoiler for Clannad:

But in a lot of other series, there is not room for argument, the knowledge is given to you. Take the latest episode of Clannad, since Mentar pointed this out as a good scene, when Tomoya forgives his father there are no other interpretations to be made except the fact that Tomoya was truly being sincere. Moreover, most people consider this character development as Tomoya finally got over his father problems, but for White Album there is no such thing because of its uncertainty.

Again, if White Album was made more forced, I bet a lot of people's opinions in this thread would change.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I cannot agree with the point that the series does nothing to get sympathy from the viewers for its characters. The reason I say this is because the only difference between this show and others like Clannad is really just the contrived vs. subtle drama.

This point must be stressed since it is the reason that many cannot feel "connected" to the these characters. I think people feel that they are in a strange position since they can't truly determine what the true character is of our different heroines and Touya.

White Album lets there characters be analyzed by the viewer and does not force-feed anything. Take our main character, Touya, we learn much about him when he goes completely out of his way to help Misaki out. Now the viewer can deduct either one of two things, Touya is a caring person, or he is just using this as a method of escapism from his problems (Not actually being caring). Depending on your interpretation, Touya can be developed radically different in your eyes as a character.

No, clearly no. Fiction is always contrived period. Comparing Clannad and White Album is not really that great of comparison. Fiction is contrived no matter how you look at it. What White Album promises is one that mimicks the real world, but it fails to keep this promise because some of the characters are not that believeable. The idea that Clannad is forced and White Album is not is ridiculous, both are forced in that sense, whereas Clannad does not come as HEAVY HANDED. When you watch Clannad, at the height of the action, your not commenting to yourself, "oh the director wants me to cry at this situation" but instead your feeling the intensity of the moment. That is not called forced, or else all movie or anytime of fiction would be considered "forced." What's different about White Album, to most people some the actions of the characters completely don't fit what they have been described as, so when that emotional scene comes up, it brings up questions about if it was accurate enough, if felt in character. The fact is call Clannad "forced" is asinine when you claim another fictional story is not. My point isn't Clannad is better than White Album, my point is stop calling something contrived when clearly the thing your defending is contrived even to a greater extent. I mean talk about "the pot calling the kettle black."

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

The idea that Clannad is forced and White Album is not is ridiculous, both are forced in that sense, whereas Clannad does not come as HEAVY HANDED. When you watch Clannad, at the height of the action, your not commenting to yourself, "oh the director wants me to cry at this situation" but instead your feeling the intensity of the moment. That is not called forced, or else all movie or anytime of fiction would be considered "forced." What's different about White Album, to most people some the actions of the characters completely don't fit what they have been described as, so when that emotional scene comes up, it brings up questions about if it was accurate enough, if felt in character. The fact is call Clannad "forced" is asinine when you claim another fictional story is not. My point isn't Clannad is better than White Album, my point is stop calling something contrived when clearly the thing your defending is contrived even to a greater extent. I mean talk about "the pot calling the kettle black."

Underscored for emphasis. It would be like criticizing Spielberg for coercing the public into crying at the last minutes of The Schindler's List through the use of music and the acting of Liam Neeson.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This point must be stressed since it is the reason that many cannot feel "connected" to the these characters. I think people feel that they are in a strange position since they can't truly determine what the true character is of our different heroines and Touya.

I think I am connected to the characters. I was and still am pissed at that photo shoot with Yuki and disappointed in Touya for succumbing to Yayoi.

[SageGaiGar]

So the problem is not knowing how to react to this series? What's wrong with that?

[faust123]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Underscored for emphasis. It would be like criticizing Spielberg for coercing the public into crying at the last minutes of The Schindler's List through the use of music and the acting of Liam Neeson.

No one is criticizing the series for it they are just pointing out things they feel are DIFFERENT. We are assuming that at the end of White Album, there should be more of a consensus about the characters and their actions which would go along with the "all fiction is contrived" idea. However during our journey to that point the actions of the characters will evoke a varied response from the viewer depending on your personal point of view.

This isn't because the writers or the director are OMG SO AMAZING - they are just simply telling a story in a DIFFERENT way. The characters and their actions are ambiguous and thus they are able to stimulate debate and different emotional responses in the viewer. As i said before this will probably continue until more of the story and motives are revealed, making things "clear"

Some people like the ambiguity and apparently some people are bothered by it. C'est la vie.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

No, clearly no. Fiction is always contrived period. Comparing Clannad and White Album is not really that great of comparison. Fiction is contrived no matter how you look at it.

This is a strange statement. Either it's trivial or it's wrong. It's trivial if you insist that any fiction is a creation and thus artificial/contrived. This is true by definition. Or it is wrong, because obviously you can write fiction which isn't intended to be realistic, or you can write fiction which obviously CANNOT be realistic.

Or do you really think that Snow White is as realistic as Schindler's List?

What White Album promises is one that mimicks the real world, but it fails to keep this promise because some of the characters are not that believeable.

Really? I couldn't come up with any WA character so far that I wouldn't have met "in kind" in my life before. "In kind" meaning personalitywise. Which characters are supposedly not believable to you?

The idea that Clannad is forced and White Album is not is ridiculous, both are forced in that sense, whereas Clannad does not come as HEAVY HANDED. When you watch Clannad, at the height of the action, your not commenting to yourself, "oh the director wants me to cry at this situation" but instead your feeling the intensity of the moment. That is not called forced, or else all movie or anytime of fiction would be considered "forced."

No. As I wrote before, the scene I listed was "forced" in that it applied strongly suggestive techniques which I listed. It purposely faded out the ugly memories of the past to replace it with a highly emotional change of heart. The viewer is pushed to accept the reversal as fact, without valuing or questioning it. It's _fact_ in the story. The implicit disconnect to the past is removed.

Again, this is not BAD, as I wrote before, it is an excellent example of employing suggestive (if that's easier for you to swallow than "forced") techniques. It makes you feel more involved and closer to the characters, and it DOES instill powerful emotions this way. This is the very GOAL though, it is INTENDED to make the viewer feel that way. Agreed?

WA has so far mostly avoided suggestive scenes like that. Its use of suggestive/leading/forced techniques has been very scarce - the viewer is much less involved, but rather more detached. The anime leaves it pretty much entirely to the viewer what he's feeling. Some criticize this as a flaw, I consider this a refreshing change from the norm which I appreciate alot.

How do we know? Because people are VERY split on how to judge the characters in the show. Such differences would certainly be much less severe in shows of the Clannad type.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

No, clearly no. Fiction is always contrived period. Comparing Clannad and White Album is not really that great of comparison. Fiction is contrived no matter how you look at it. What White Album promises is one that mimicks the real world, but it fails to keep this promise because some of the characters are not that believeable. The idea that Clannad is forced and White Album is not is ridiculous, both are forced in that sense, whereas Clannad does not come as HEAVY HANDED. When you watch Clannad, at the height of the action, your not commenting to yourself, "oh the director wants me to cry at this situation" but instead your feeling the intensity of the moment. That is not called forced, or else all movie or anytime of fiction would be considered "forced." What's different about White Album, to most people some the actions of the characters completely don't fit what they have been described as, so when that emotional scene comes up, it brings up questions about if it was accurate enough, if felt in character. The fact is call Clannad "forced" is asinine when you claim another fictional story is not. My point isn't Clannad is better than White Album, my point is stop calling something contrived when clearly the thing your defending is contrived even to a greater extent. I mean talk about "the pot calling the kettle black."

Ok, it's fiction, it's made up. However, you are misunderstanding what I mean by contrived. White Album, throughout many of its scenes, remains fairly natural. The conversations between the characters carry out in realistic manners, no one does anything that could be considered over the top. Other shows like Clannad, come off as fairly unnatural. As Mentar put it, this could be coined as the realistic vs. unrealistic approach. Now I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I feel that White Album is definitely refreshing compared to other shows of this genre.

The one scene that I like a lot from WA that shows this is the phone conversation between Misaki and Touya when Misaki was pretty much breaking down under the pressures of her life. There was no dramatic "HEY I'M GOING TO HELP YOU BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT YOU A LOT," but rather just a simple conversation where Touya edges on Misaki as any typical friend would do in a calm, undramatic moment. And finally he decides to help her, but does not do it in a crazed manner like in many other shows where the main character might burst out sprinting to help a heroine. This is the type of show WA is, a more controlled drama that is subtle in nature. This comes off as way more realistic than a show like Clannad.

Something else you are misunderstanding is the idea of the forced emotions in scenes of shows like Clannad. It is very obvious when it is trying to bring up the emotion. If you go into threads in this forum like Clannad's episode 19, you can see that people get choked up at exactly the same parts. Coincidence? No, that is what the director wanted you to feel at that very moment. Is it bad? No, it is not, but we cannot deny that the audience is being made to feel a certain way.

White Album does not do this, that is why everyone here is left guessing at the character's true intentions and goals, and worries. This is because the show does nothing of Clannad's nature (well up to this point since I expect some changes in the upcoming episodes) and lets the audience interpret everything for themselves. People say there is no character development, but that is because they fail to see it for themselves. They want the character development spoon fed to them and they want to see clear development that everyone they know can see as well. I feel that those watching this show with that opinion need to think about what they are watching a little more, and interpret the characters for themselves.

Oh, and by the way, please give me an example of how a character's actions don't seem to fit, since you cared enough to make that point.

[Vexx]

sometimes its differentiated as "larger than life" drama from the ennui of daily life. Clannad, to some degree, is "larger than life" in its execution of drama... White Album is more of a "black box" scenario where you have to guess at the seething motivations under their external actions - I'll probably get smacked but White Album comes across as somewhat "French" whereas Clannad is more of a Greek play / Bard type of thing. Someone who remembers more of their literarary designations could probably describe it more clearly.

Yeah, the series is still dropped for me but its still interesting to watch people trying to find the right words to explain why they like or don't like what they're seeing.

[Noe]

Episode 8 was okay.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'll probably get smacked but White Album comes across as somewhat "French"

That's exactly how I described it to a friend.

The problem is that we, frenchmen, are sick and tired of having roughly 65 french movies out of 100 being the same old love polygon about a husband doubting his marriage and cheating on his wife who cheat with the husband's best friend who cheat on the wife with the waitress of the next door's cafe. The rest of the releases are comedies, then documentaries and the odd BUT ambitious story. I am not sure what happened to the french cinema when I look at productions like "Leon", "Le Professionel" starring Belmondo.

The bottom line is that I am so oversaturated by movies about the petty lives of petty 30-40 parisian bourgeois only worried adultery and sex that I am pretty indifferent or mentally repulsed.

Perhaps you non-french want that kind of movies, but I would like something more ambitious from the local production.

[DragoZERO]

Wow.. we're talking less and less about the show now. haha.

Am I the only one who didn't like those photos of Yuki? Seriously now.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Sheba

That's exactly how I described it to a friend.

The problem is that we, frenchmen, are sick and tired of having roughly 65 french movies out of 100 being the same old love polygon about a husband doubting his marriage and cheating on his wife who cheat with the husband's best friend who cheat on the wife with the waitress of the next door's cafe. The rest of the releases are comedies, then documentaries and the odd BUT ambitious story. I am not sure what happened to the french cinema when I look at productions like "Leon", "Le Professionel" starring Belmondo.

The bottom line is that I am so oversaturated by movies about the petty lives of petty 30-40 parisian bourgeois only worried adultery and sex that I am pretty indifferent or mentally repulsed.

Perhaps you non-french want that kind of movies, but I would like something more ambitious from the local production.

Damn man i didnt know the French movie industry had moved in such a direction i think i would be pissed off too. Just like how im pissed off that Hollywood decides to remake every DAMN movie under the sun and ruin it and when they have used up one source they move on like how they are tapping anime now

But anyway i think understand some of your post on White Album now. Which goes back to our personal lives and view of the world affects how we view characters and the plot itself like White Album. Its been a while since iv seen so many varying degrees of opinions about a series. Despite if we like White Album or not or even agree with how the characters are portrayed and developed, to generate such discussions does show that White Album does have "something" right or else there would not be such interesting discussions and strong feelings on it.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

What White Album promises is one that mimicks the real world, but it fails to keep this promise because some of the characters are not that believeable.

Where and when, exactly, did the show "promise" that it's a realistic show?

Can you quote a source, interview with director etc, on that?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Wow.. we're talking less and less about the show now. haha.

Well, talking about peripherally related subjects is alright as long as it's pertinent to the thread. However, it's a lot less alright to talk about another anime in detail, spoilers and all. After all, there are people watching White Album who haven't watched Clannad yet - *ahem*me*ahem*.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh, the show undoubtedly is very subtle. It uses alot of implicit storytelling and symbolism, and it forces you to draw conclusions. Weren't you one of those who actually criticized the show for that?

The "undoubtedly" part doesn't ring very true to me. While some of the approaches to storytelling - the direction, symbolism, and so forth try to make the show more subtle, I don't see what's particularly subtle about the characters, their motivation, or even the plot. My criticism was that despite the show itself being very straightforward, it tries to take on the appearance of something more convoluted, forcing the viewer to pay more attention than necessary.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And why wouldn't/shouldn't she be the catalyst? She was the one most aggressively pushing Touya by far, so it would actually be _logical_ to be her (even though I admit that I suspected Rina to be the first to draw blood).

It's not a question of whether it's logical or not - it's more that the decision to go with Yayoi is far less interesting than the alternatives.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Uninteresting is in the eye of the beholder. In fact she's the girl with the highest remaining mystery potential. The reason why she's loaded is still unclear. Or why Eiji affectionally calls her Yayoi-neesama. The reason why she's so extreme in her protection of Yuki. And the reason why she's been getting mail addressed to "Yayoi-sama". There's still more backstory here, I'm sure - and I have this feeling that she might have had some time in the limelight too, probably cut short due to management problems.

You're right here. I didn't write out my feeling on the matter as clearly as I should have. My issue with using Yayoi isn't because I find her character uninteresting. It's because there's no emotional tension to the Touya-Yayoi relationship. From what we've seen, neither character particularly cares for the other, so there's no real lasting consequence of a tryst between them. You're not exactly going to see Touya go out of his way to protect Yayoi from Rina or Yuki or anything like that. There aren't any hard choices here or anything like that.

I'd be a little more positive about the whole thing if there was much potential in a big blowup between Yuki and Yayoi, but we've seen so little interaction between the two, that there just isn't much emotional investment there. In the end, all this amounts to is a relatively easily solved sin on the part of Touya, and it's perhaps the least of all possible alternatives.

On the bit about how interesting Yayoi is, I find that she has some potential, but it's nowhere near realized yet, and there's not a whole lot to her character at this point.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Finally, read again what you wrote. A more classic example "I don't like that the show does it different to what I wanted/expected it to" can hardly be found.

That's incorrect on a couple of different levels. First off, I'm still not sure whether I like the show. Certainly I like certain elements more than others, but that's only natural. Second, I have only been expecting a very few things from White Album: engaging melodrama, entertaining scenes, and interesting characters. I'm already getting some of the above, but why shouldn't I want more of it?

Originally Posted by Mentar

That contradicts the "not very subtle" point you made earlier (and I also strongly disagree on the issue itself).

It's quite possible for a show to simultaneously use opaque elements and still not be particularly subtle.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I also don't see the "going through the motions" part at all, it's rather that atypically for the romance drama category the show does NOT go for huge displays of emotion.

I'm talking about the conversations where neither party cares about what's being talked about, or the scenes that try to inject profundity without being profound (the latter admittedly being very typical of anime).

Originally Posted by Mentar

No teary breakdowns, no shouting matches. In that, I attribute a higher degree of realism to the show, since Japanese are much less susceptible to displaying emotion than we are. And White Album forfeited using this standard "explicit storytelling" technique so far.

Yes. And it's been a real shame .

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Here's my question: if you knew Touya in real life, would you want to be his friend? Because, I sure as hell wouldn't. I knew people kinda like Touya in my undergrad days, and I fairly quickly worked out that I couldn't trust them as far as I could kick them.

To be fair, it's quite possible to like or be interested in a character even if said character isn't a good or even decent person.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

That makes this a mediocre drama. You have low standards, you like soap operas, just admit it already. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't act like a pretentious know-it-all that has a penchant for "implicit storytelling" and "subtlety" just because other people have better taste. Wait, I mean, don't act like a pretentious know-it-all especially when other people have better taste.

Wait one moment here. Liking soap operas doesn't necessarily mean that one has poor tastes. And for that matter, having poor tastes don't invalidate one's opinions at all. We all have our own standards, and it's only an issue when they result in poor arguments. So far, I've been seeing pretty good arguments all around.

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Well basically almost everything everyone does is wrong, seemingly for the sake of having the characters do the wrong thing to allow drama to ensue. I mean if someone tried to pass this story off as a real life incident, nobody would believe them.

Well, in this kind of show, the characters making tons of terrible choices is the very point of the story. Moreover, people make all sorts of unbelieveably stupid mistakes in real life, so plausibility shouldn't be a big deal. I do agree though that it'd be a lot more effective if we were to get a better sense of justification for those decisions.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

But anyway i think understand some of your post on White Album now. Which goes back to our personal lives and view of the world affects how we view characters and the plot itself like White Album. Its been a while since iv seen so many varying degrees of opinions about a series. Despite if we like White Album or not or even agree with how the characters are portrayed and developed, to generate such discussions does show that White Album does have "something" right or else there would not be such interesting discussions and strong feelings on it.

Certainly White Album touches on topics that are discussion-worthy. However, it's worth noting that this is true of a great many other shows as well. The reason they have less discussion tends to be because the ones who disagree with the consensus tend to be a lot less vocal.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by aohige

Where and when, exactly, did the show "promise" that it's a realistic show?

Can you quote a source, interview with director etc, on that?

I have no source, my assumption of this promise is from playing the game, from looking at the details of which the story is presented. The promise is not so much a promise but a statement of the setting. And my argument was based on the fact that Clannad was not "realistic" whereas White Album is. From what we are given, there "seem" to be no fantastical elements, the setting is all drawn in the same style, there is no exaggeration of the physical environment. Nothing seems to be out place, specifically anachronisms since this set in 1999, were cell phones aren't prevalent. Given that the setting is one that "seems" to be "realistic" it implies that the show itself is one of a more "real" nature whereas clearly Clannad has some aspects of fantasy that play a major role in the story but is only sparsely portrayed. My assumption could be wrong, but with the information from the past 8 episodes it's pretty safe to say that the tone of the show is based on realism. My point in using the word realistic, was to point out that all fiction is contrived, and that all situations within these contrived works have an intended emotion that is supposed to be elicited by the patron. This emotion may not be apparent but once the work is looked at as a whole, each moment should contribute to the overall flow of the show, my problem with White Album, is that I can't follow this flow, which makes it hard to interpret what the characters on screen are doing, and what their motivations are. When it ends, we will truly find out how subtle White Album is, but till then I will continue to look at it with skepticism because right now it is nothing more than points loosely strong together that have no deep lasting impact on me.

P.S. I'll have to rewatch to actually specifically pull out things that I felt weren't justified well, but currently I'm watching some of my backlog, so it might be awhile before I truly reevaluate this show. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy the show but I'm in no hurry to rewatch any of it at this very moment.

P.P.S @4tran, Sorry about some of teh Clannad spoilers, I was trying to get my point across, but I did try to avoid going into too much detail

[aohige]

^well then, that's your opinion and your observation, not a "promise" by the creators.

Criticizing something for failing to be realistic, when it didn't promise you anything is silly.
Just state your opinion as opinion, not as something else.